Name a thing you DON'T hate in Fallout 4

Well, welcome to NMA @iltt. Be happy that you're not on the Codex. I have heard, they don't even use lube.

And you still havn't answered my question, by the way. Why do you think the factions in F4 are so appealing? And don't be shy! You're allowed to use more than 5 words here.
 
Crni Vuk said:
Well, welcome to NMA @iltt. Be happy that you're not on the Codex. I have heard, they don't even use lube.
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I'm actually surprised at how open this forum is to my debating without outright insulting me

And you still havn't answered my question, by the way. Why do you think the factions in F4 are so appealing? And don't be shy! You're allowed to use more than 5 words here.
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Aight aight chill out yall. Lemme tell you why I like those factions

Brotherhood of Steel (Fallout 4): Well for starters they had a big friggin zeppelin that came in the Commonwealth, telling the citizens that they are here to help them fight against the Institute. With their power armor, their vertibirds, their advanced weaponry, and their efficiency at dealing with those threats, what's not to like about them? Nothing! Except well, the xenophobia towards synths and ghouls, and their overbearing military presence, and their 'elder' who's an asshole. As far as I know, they're good for killing threats, but because of the implication that this branch of the BOS had made the Capital Wasteland into a feudalistic hellhole, are they really what the Commonwealth need?

Railroad: A rag tag team of guys who specialize in espionage, they're a group of well-intended people who dedicated their lives to the liberation of synths, who they believe to be sentient people forced into slavery. But you realize that their numbers throught the Commonwealth is small, and some members believe that the Gen 1/2 synths should be saved too, but those things seem to show as much human emotion as a regular protectron, so where exactly do we draw the line? Another thing about them is their apathy for humans suffering, and put the lives of synths over humans. Basically, they're the wasteland's PETA. Then there's the idea of taking a synth and having their memories replaced. Wouldn't that be killing them as a person? Is the very fact that their memories are deleted and replaced makes them more of a robot, and treating them like a robot dehumanizing?

Institute: Oh boy oh boy the Institute. You hear the horror stories about how they replace people with a replica, how they tear apart entire towns for a single piece of technology, how they could be anywhere. Then you go and meet them yourself. Their main base is at a technological level never seen in a Fallout game, the scientists are nice to you, and it's ran by your own son. You learn the motivations of the things they do and why they do it, and I personally had a hard time deciding between them and the Railroad. I mean yeah, slavery is objectively wrong, but since the synths were artificially created, would that be any different that using your computer? When they express emotion, are they actually feeling that emotion, or are they executing a command? And since these dudes created even more super mutants because God knows we don't have enough, can we really trust these guys to make a better Commonwealth? And even if we fight against the Institute, can you really turn against our own son like that? What if you become the director? Could you lead the Institute to a better direction(no pun intended)

But the thing I like most about these factions is that they're so morally ambiguous, something that I liked about another Fallout game. Y'know, the one that took place in Nevada. In the end, they could all be the right faction, but it depends on your own morals.

anyways that's just my 5 cents feel free to disagree and/or fight me
 
Citrate said:
I like that power armour feels like power armour rather than just another normal piece of equipment.

I also enjoyed messing around with console commands to do ridiculous things, despite the number of crashes it causes.
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And jumping from high buildings in power armor.

iltt said:
Then there's the idea of taking a synth and having their memories replaced. Wouldn't that be killing them as a person? Is the very fact that their memories are deleted and replaced makes them more of a robot, and treating them like a robot dehumanizing?
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I like the part in Far Harbor when you meet the synth that had "problems" after deleting procedure. I guess... could be nice to adress the issue more in the future (I know, I know, ain't gonna happen).
 
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Fallout 4 is what I like to call a "trophy wife" game. A game that doesn't really have a purpose or identity, and is just their to look pretty and fulfill your power fantasies. As a power fantasy simulator it's great, but it's a fucking horrible fallout game, and a horrible rpg in general.
 
iltt said:
Aight aight chill out yall. Lemme tell you why I like those factions

Brotherhood of Steel (Fallout 4): Well for starters they had a big friggin zeppelin that came in the Commonwealth, telling the citizens that they are here to help them fight against the Institute. With their power armor, their vertibirds, their advanced weaponry, and their efficiency at dealing with those threats, what's not to like about them? Nothing! Except well, the xenophobia towards synths and ghouls, and their overbearing military presence, and their 'elder' who's an asshole. As far as I know, they're good for killing threats, but because of the implication that this branch of the BOS had made the Capital Wasteland into a feudalistic hellhole, are they really what the Commonwealth need?
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Actually, I also find the new Brotherhood a nice change, compared to the boring white knights of Fallout 3. The Prydwen's arrival is badass indeed, some characters are pretty good and they "feel" xenophobic, which is cool, lore speaking.
But what do you think about these elements, which I find are problems :
-Why on earth would the Brotherhood blow up the Institute after taking full control of the place ? For a lore friendly, realistic brotherhood, that would put Elder Maxson in position of high treason, especially considering that he's surrounded by former outcasts, who straight up provoked a civil war for the same reason. Protect technology, keep it from the wrong hands, that's their creed. Not straight up destroy it. In this situation, it's like witnessing King Arthur melting the holy Graal because it was held by a heretic.
-How come the Brotherhood has a scouting campound a minute away from the CIT, and never bothered to check the place ? The place named after their nemesis ?
-Why does Maxson is cool with you bringing a junkie ghoul, a junkie rebel, a brutal super mutant, two synths and an actual Institute Courier onboard, openly discussing his orders and witnessing his battle plans ?
-Why does the BoS didn't give a damn about the Institute until now, when they suddenly decide that it's the biggest threat ever ? Let's not forget that ten years ago, Dr.Zimmer gave all the intel and even Institute implants to the lone wanderer, who knew Maxson, fought with Lyons and defeated the Enclave ?
-How is their hatred towards ghouls a moral problem ? I know, from the current, real life world POV, yes, it's objectively bad and immoral. But from their point of view ? Look. Almost every Ghoul you meet is either a dangerous, immortal zombie capable of dodging bullets, or a dangerous criminal. From the point of view of futuristic, post apocalyptic fundamentalist knights, yes, they have every reason to dislike ghouls. And this is where the game fails, in my mind : they give you current moral dilemmas, with the point of view of the real life world... In the context of a world where it makes no sense (I'm not sure I explain my point well). Sure, racism is bad. Slavery is horrible. Yes, yes, of course. But in a completely other world, in a different time, with different events and people ? They'd view these subjects differently. The entire moral compass would be completely different. Seeing this new world but with a "real life morality" so to speak, is something that breaks my immersion.
It's like the movie "Kingdom of Heaven". Yes, of course seizing lands for power is wrong and fundementalism is bad. We know that. But the main character lives in the XIIth century. He doesn't have our moral compass. He has another compass, neither better nor worse, simply different. He has zero reason to go all "America f...ck yeah" and abolish fundementalism because he just invented liberalism during the medieval crusades. You know what I mean ?

iltt said:
Railroad: A rag tag team of guys who specialize in espionage, they're a group of well-intended people who dedicated their lives to the liberation of synths, who they believe to be sentient people forced into slavery. But you realize that their numbers throught the Commonwealth is small, and some members believe that the Gen 1/2 synths should be saved too, but those things seem to show as much human emotion as a regular protectron, so where exactly do we draw the line? Another thing about them is their apathy for humans suffering, and put the lives of synths over humans. Basically, they're the wasteland's PETA. Then there's the idea of taking a synth and having their memories replaced. Wouldn't that be killing them as a person? Is the very fact that their memories are deleted and replaced makes them more of a robot, and treating them like a robot dehumanizing?
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Good points. I never played the Railroad storyline because I hate Deacon, but these seem to be interesting elements indeed. A more subtle and morally grey "resistance movement" is a nice change from the standard.

iltt said:
Institute: Oh boy oh boy the Institute. You hear the horror stories about how they replace people with a replica, how they tear apart entire towns for a single piece of technology, how they could be anywhere. Then you go and meet them yourself. Their main base is at a technological level never seen in a Fallout game, the scientists are nice to you, and it's ran by your own son. You learn the motivations of the things they do and why they do it, and I personally had a hard time deciding between them and the Railroad. I mean yeah, slavery is objectively wrong, but since the synths were artificially created, would that be any different that using your computer? When they express emotion, are they actually feeling that emotion, or are they executing a command? And since these dudes created even more super mutants because God knows we don't have enough, can we really trust these guys to make a better Commonwealth? And even if we fight against the Institute, can you really turn against our own son like that? What if you become the director? Could you lead the Institute to a better direction(no pun intended)
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I understand why you love them. My problems with them though :
-Yes, the moral dilemma of synths, free will and feelings. Alright, that's actually a good thematic : look at SOMA, which dealt with that in a delicate, subtle and unforgettable way. Truly a masterpiece, because it left doubt until the very end and knocked you down with a perfectly written ending.
In the Institute's case, however, I feel that they do ask the question of Synth's souls, but they immediately answer it. There's PLENTY of evidence that Synths are sentient beings with souls, and zero evidence that they are just machines executing a program. Which, in my case, turned the thematic null, because it answered the question for you and threw it at your face. Look :
Curie (an interesting character indeed, with a nice voice acting, but poorly exploited in my opinion. The girl can litteraly save the world from sickness, for pete's sake !) falls in love with the hero as soon as she has the physical ability to do so. It's not a program, because she doesn't understands what's going on. She wasn't programmed for it, she "feels" it. Which answers the question of Synth's capacity of autonomous feeling, and renders the Institute's moral dilemma null : you KNOW that Synths feel, at this point. We also know that they dream. Making them having the same dream, over and over again, every single one of them, would have actually been interesting, but here, we know the answer to the "dilemma" even before hearing it.

-Why would they replace Danse ? For what purpose, except for forcing drama in the storyline ? As much as I "kind of" liked the final scene with Danse (even if I didn't like being "forced" to hesitate. Immersion breaking moment, when you roleplay a fanatic who has zero reason not to pull the trigger, but anyway), it felt like it was done because the plot demanded it, which always feel awkward to me.

-Alright, they made super mutants. Why ? And why did they release them in the wild ? I never understood that. The muties tried to take Diamond City and almost made it. The place the Institute seems to need for some reason. What if they succeeded ?

-The player becoming the director is an interesting twist, even if in my case, it felt a bit weird (at this point of the story, I was a scarred, disfigured brute with no intelligence, working openly for the brotherhood while having zero knowledge in science or politics). But when it happens, why on earth would the Institute ever let you roam around in the wild, sleeping in irradiated shacks ? What if, er... you died ?

-Why on earth would the Synth uprising being a problem ? The Institute has speakers. If there's trouble, desactivate the synths using the safe code and voila. Uprising over.
Oh right, they don't have a general safe code. They'd have to desactivate all synths, one by one. Which broke all interest for them, in my case, because it meant that they were the dumbest people in the commonwealth ^^ hell, even in our world, we wouldn't use robot arms in our industry if we couldn't shut them down in case there is a malfunction, which always happens at some point. A faction made of engineers couldn't possibly have missed that.

-And this brings me to my biggest problem with them : they seem smart indeed, but they aren't. On many points, they get outsmarted by Curie, robobrains or wastelanders from San Francisco. Look :
They say that their motto is « humanity redifined ». Alright. But West Tek made it two centuries before with embedding DNA with FEV, allowing mutation and evolution to happen way, way faster. Even the master's scientists debunked this idea, because humans WERE evolving ultra fast to match the fauna and flora that West Tek infected.
A synthetic army ? Assaultrons and Securitrons are way deadlier than any of the Institute's synths, they don't show any dysfunctionality like a conscience and they are two centuries old. And still kicking. Hell, the mechanist made way more dangerous technology. I won't spoil the DLC if you haven't played it, but let's just say that the mechanist doesn't have a lot of resources or blueprints available.
Cyborgs ? It was working perfectly well. Improved lifespan, made people stronger, smarter etc. Shaun cancelled this program for no reason.
Synths ? The biggest invention of mankind indeed, used as slaves or mediocre soldiers. On the other hand, the big MT acknowledged sentience in synthetic organisms and actually gave a soul to inanimate objects just because they could.
Synthetic gorillas in the commonwealth ? Why ?
Synth children ? A perpetually 10 year old android. What scientific purpose could he serve ?
Teleportation ? Pretty cool indeed, except that big MT discovered this technology long before the institute and it worked way, way better. No big room or makeshift machine or anything.
Weapons ? Which are worse than laser weapons invented two centuries before them.
Agriculture ? Food replicators were invented two centuries before the events of the game, as per the GECK. And they were powered by portable cold fusion reactors, a technology our real life scientists only dream of while the Institute has trouble paying its energy bills.
About the energy. The Institute's greatest accomplishment is a 1942 technology : a nuclear reactor.
FEV ? Cancelled. Despite the fact that FEV turned people into cancer immune organisms two centuries before the events of Fallout 4, where the institute's own president is dying of cancer.
Bioscience ? They infiltrate farms and that's it. On the other hand, Curie outsmarted the entire Institute by developping a cure for every disease, despite being a mark I Mrs.Nanny whose design was already half a century old by the time the bombs fell. The Shi's bioscience in San Francisco is way better than the Institute, because they actually made a plant that eats radiation and scrubs the land to make it livable. They can make synthetic oil out of seaweed and are on the verge of building their own nuclear reactors.
Oh, the institute can cure Super Mutants. But West Tek already had the same cure back in 2077. In Fallout 1, Zax even says that anyone who keeps a sample of their original DNA can be turned back into a human. In other words, the institute took two centuries to discover something that West Tek figured out in... one year.
The Institute even gets outsmarted by one of their own fellow student, Mr.House, who managed to achieve immortality by himself, with makeshift technology. A technology he intends to sell to the NCR, with whom he makes business.
Artificial Intelligence ? Invented and sold to the military two centuries ago, as proven by Skynet in the Sierra Army Depot.
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iltt said:
But the thing I like most about these factions is that they're so morally ambiguous, something that I liked about another Fallout game. Y'know, the one that took place in Nevada. In the end, they could all be the right faction, but it depends on your own morals.
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They are morally ambiguous indeed, and this is refreshing, compared to Skyrim and Fallout 3, I agree.
As for NV, aye aye indeed. The game puts incredible moral dilemmas on the table.
How to come back ? If you had to choose between freedom (NCR) and peace (Legion), which is the most important ? There's a messiah bringing synthetic immortality (House), but he's a manipulative jerk. Should you kneel before him anyway ? Are you making the world a favor by getting rid of him ? Are you a good man (Dead Money, Lonesome Road) ? Don't you have sins, too (Honest Hearts) ? What are you worth, really (Old World Blues) ?
These are moral dilemmas. Simple, deep questions, and the game never throws the definitive answer at you. You have to think, to redifine your own morals and to take a decision. I didn't feel that in Fallout 4. In F4, I had the answer before I even got asked the question. But that's my opinion, not a fact.
Sorry for the long answer. Don't take my points the wrong way, I'm simply debating with you :)
 
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mithrap said:
-Why on earth would the Synth uprising being a problem ? The Institute has speakers. If there's trouble, deactivate the synths using the safe code and voila. Uprising over.
Oh right, they don't have a general safe code. They'd have to deactivate all synths, one by one. Which broke all interest for them, in my case, because it meant that they were the dumbest people in the commonwealth ^^ hell, even in our world, we wouldn't use robot arms in our industry if we couldn't shut them down in case there is a malfunction, which always happens at some point. A faction made of engineers couldn't possibly have missed that.
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Continuing on that point, even if they lack a general shutdown code, they could still just list out the shutdown codes in order. It wouldn't be as effective, but it would be more than enough to defeat the rebellion.
 
Well, in Blade Runner the androids had only 7 years or so before they died/shut down. So there is that. They could not even take a hint from a movie ... I mean they could have figured out a better protection.
 
Oooooh boy. Here we go!

mithrap said:
But what do you think about these elements, which I find are problems :
-Why on earth would the Brotherhood blow up the Institute after taking full control of the place ? For a lore friendly, realistic brotherhood, that would put Elder Maxson in position of high treason, especially considering that he's surrounded by former outcasts, who straight up provoked a civil war for the same reason. Protect technology, keep it from the wrong hands, that's their creed. Not straight up destroy it. In this situation, it's like witnessing King Arthur melting the holy Graal because it was held by a heretic.
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Well I did say Maxson was a brat who became an elder through propaganda so I assume he's a fucking idiot. The rest of the Brotherhood seem either scared or overly respectful of him, almost to the point of worship. I wish Bethesda didn't cut the quest so that Danse/Frozen one could be the elder of the Brotherhood.

-How come the Brotherhood has a scouting campound a minute away from the CIT, and never bothered to check the place ? The place named after their nemesis ?
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Well even if they did check out the place, how would they know where to find the Institute?

-Why does Maxson is cool with you bringing a junkie ghoul, a junkie rebel, a brutal super mutant, two synths and an actual Institute Courier onboard, openly discussing his orders and witnessing his battle plans ?
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I assuming that because you're a Brotherhood knight, he's more lenient on who you bring onboard the Pryden.
-Why does the BoS didn't give a damn about the Institute until now, when they suddenly decide that it's the biggest threat ever ? Let's not forget that ten years ago, Dr.Zimmer gave all the intel and even Institute implants to the lone wanderer, who knew Maxson, fought with Lyons and defeated the Enclave ?
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Interesting question. I think that because the new Brotherhood is more militaristic and power hungry, they're using the Institute as an excuse to control the Commonwealth. If a big powerful military came by and told you they're coming to protect you from the biggest boogeyman, wouldn't you be trusting them too?
-How is their hatred towards ghouls a moral problem ? I know, from the current, real life world POV, yes, it's objectively bad and immoral. But from their point of view ? Look. Almost every Ghoul you meet is either a dangerous, immortal zombie capable of dodging bullets, or a dangerous criminal. From the point of view of futuristic, post apocalyptic fundamentalist knights, yes, they have every reason to dislike ghouls. And this is where the game fails, in my mind : they give you current moral dilemmas, with the point of view of the real life world... In the context of a world where it makes no sense (I'm not sure I explain my point well). Sure, racism is bad. Slavery is horrible. Yes, yes, of course. But in a completely other world, in a different time, with different events and people ? They'd view these subjects differently. The entire moral compass would be completely different. Seeing this new world but with a "real life morality" so to speak, is something that breaks my immersion.
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I'd say that because the Fallout world takes place in an alternate 50's Earth where people don't discriminate based on color (as far as I know), I think real world morality is quite applicable here. Yes, BOS members may see that 90% of ghouls should be exterminated, but what of the 10%? Also this argument about them seeing mostly ghouls as bad people is highly and uncomfortably reminiscent of arguments I had with racists about my race, except it's always easier to argue in favor of real life people.



Good points. I never played the Railroad storyline because I hate Deacon, but these seem to be interesting elements indeed. A more subtle and morally grey "resistance movement" is a nice change from the standard.
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Personally Deacon is my second favorite companion

In the Institute's case, however, I feel that they do ask the question of Synth's souls, but they immediately answer it. There's PLENTY of evidence that Synths are sentient beings with souls, and zero evidence that they are just machines executing a program. Which, in my case, turned the thematic null, because it answered the question for you and threw it at your face.
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I agree with this. They should have done a better job providing making the sentience of synths more ambiguous. However one could argue that the case for Curie is that there's an advanced program that makes them simulate human emotions almost perfectly, but that feels like a weak argument. One thing I did like about the synths is that they talked as though they're reading from a script, or just didn't put too much emotion in their voices(at least the obvious Institute synths).

-Why would they replace Danse ? For what purpose, except for forcing drama in the storyline ? As much as I "kind of" liked the final scene with Danse (even if I didn't like being "forced" to hesitate. Immersion breaking moment, when you roleplay a fanatic who has zero reason not to pull the trigger, but anyway), it felt like it was done because the plot demanded it, which always feel awkward to me.
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I could understand this, but what if Danse was an institute synth saved by the Railroad, who then had his memories wiped? If the Institute were to get a hold of Danse and make him a synth again, he could destroy the BOS from the inside.

-Alright, they made super mutants. Why ? And why did they release them in the wild ?
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Now this was an obvious excuse by Bethesda to add super mutants into a Fallout game, so there's not a good enough reason as to why. One thing I do like about the Institute super mutants is that they seem to possess more intelligence, like this one time I heard one of them shout, "You humans created us. Now suffer for your arrogance!" Nice vocabulary for a super mutant

-The player becoming the director is an interesting twist, even if in my case, it felt a bit weird (at this point of the story, I was a scarred, disfigured brute with no intelligence, working openly for the brotherhood while having zero knowledge in science or politics). But when it happens, why on earth would the Institute ever let you roam around in the wild, sleeping in irradiated shacks ? What if, er... you died ?
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I believe the Institute even allowing you to be a director in such an unorthodox manner is because of the immense respect they have for your son. As for dieing from radiation or whatever, I believe they would send a Courser to check the last electronic signals from you pip boy and pick up your body.

-supersnip-
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Since this is a long post about the failings of the Institute, I'll just ask this question: Ever met this one dude who said shit like "I'm soooo smart but just too lazy to do anything," or something like that? I believe the Institute's fatal flaw is just how damn stupid they are, both in a canon sense and a meta sense. Even one of the guys there in the Institute says," So synths are humanity's greatest hope, yet they're not humans?!" or something along the lines of that. It's obvious that some of the scientists there believe that they're sentient(hell, one of them helps the Railroad in liberating synths, which turns out to be bad for him in the long run because the Railroad ends up destroying his home and family. He leaves a final suicide note for the Frozen one, cursing him for what they did. Moe of that good ol' moral ambiguity)

These are moral dilemmas. Simple, deep questions, and the game never throws the definitive answer at you. You have to think, to redifine your own morals and to take a decision. I didn't feel that in Fallout 4. In F4, I had the answer before I even got asked the question. But that's my opinion, not a fact.
Sorry for the long answer. Don't take my points the wrong way, I'm simply debating with you :)
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I can understand your feelings about the dilemmas, and I feel the Railroad is the best example of a morally-grey faction they did in a while. and I appreciate the long answers. It gives me time to think about what I played, and is ample evidence that video gaming is a legit art form, since it can provoke many discussions looking into the nature of it.
 
iltt said:
I'd say that because the Fallout world takes place in an alternate 50's Earth where people don't discriminate based on color (as far as I know), I think real world morality is quite applicable here.
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Umm, last time I checked, Fallout world supposedly takes place in the future as envisioned by the people living in the 50s, not the alternate 50s itself.
 
R.Graves said:
@iltt

Your post that seems to be made almost entirely out of handwavium.
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Well to be honest this thread is about naming things you don't hate in Fallout 4.
So if @iltt doesn't hate it and explained why, I see no problems. People like and dislike different things.
Now if the thread was "post something you don't hate in Fallout 4 and explain it so we all have to agree with you" I would have a different opinion :rofl:.
 
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