NCR, Enclave, FEV Curling-13 (and mutants)

[Ilosar]

Of course they are. Shady Sands alone is supposed to be a few thousand people in Fallout 2 IIRC, so assuming the Oil Rig is much bigger than what we saw is not s stretch.

About Enclave vs Master; a key difference is that the Enclave leadership is a group of people with, shall we say, set-in-stone opinions, with determined people under their command. The Master is, by all accounts, alone in making decisions, with Lou being a field commander at most and the rest of the Mutants following orders because, hey, he's the Master. Some Enclave members, such as Curling, really seem to be in for the ''greater good'' (he pretty much aborts it all if he learns everything). Others are die-hard fanatics, such as Richardson and good ol' Frankie. The diversity ensures that the whole enterprise can't have simple motivations (such as a foggy ''greater good'') and it's much easier to find individual elements to demonize (but also to redeem the faction, see the Remnants in NV).

That said, the thing that really sets these factions apart is also the method, too; the Master want to make humanity safer and better by turning it all into superhumans (given the state of Fallout 1's world, not that unreasonable), the Enclave wants to rebuild... by killing everybody that's not them while the world is already rebuilding. That's why they are egoistical, fascist pricks; their master plan is completely unneccessary to the achievement of their goal and only exists because they want to be in control of everything. It's not only immoral, it's simply useless and idiotic.

 

[Courier]

Even if it was bigger than we saw then it would still only house a few hundred people, not enough for long-lasting genetic stability. It might take a few generations but eventually with that few people the human race would die out.

 

[The Enclave 86]

Some Enclave members, such as Curling, really seem to be in for the ''greater good'' (he pretty much aborts it all if he learns everything). Others are die-hard fanatics, such as Richardson and good ol' Frankie. The diversity ensures that the whole enterprise can't have simple motivations.

What's your point? Curling believes that he is doing it for the greater good and so does Richardson.

the Enclave wants to rebuild... by killing everybody that's not them while the world is already rebuilding. That's why they are egoistical, fascist pricks; their master plan is completely unneccessary to the achievement of their goal and only exists because they want to be in control of everything. It's not only immoral, it's simply useless and idiotic.

Simple, they don't know the NCR exists. How far have the Enclave gone onto the mainland? They drop of a case of laser pistols with the Salvators every once in a while and in 2236 abducted people from Redding. The Enclave believed that most of the mainland was a 'radioactive hell', they believe that mainland would destroy them due to the massive difference in numbers; got to love how the Master wanting to save humanity through forced mutation is okay because he believes he's saving the world, yet Richardson - equally as wrong and misinformed - saying the same thing is fascist, evil and idiotic.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Biased much? The fact that Richardson believes it matters about as much as the Master believing his goal. When did they ever 'sugar coat' anything? What 'egotism'?

"Egoism", not "egotism".

And it's not bias, I don't understand how can't you see that. The Enclave wanted to spread the Curling-13 because of the mutant threat that plagued the mainland.

...except that there was no mutant threat. Richardson believes that and he would die for it? He's just an idiot, then.

The Master on the other end wanted to improve humanity (without killing 99% of it) in a way that would have also stopped conflicts. Conflicts like...I don't know...the one between the NCR and the Legion.

Well when you word it so un-objectively it's no wonder you get confused; Christ and people say that the Enclave are closed minded, I have absolutely no doubts that the Master would probably make a better world, I personally just don't like that world.

I'm not judging the Master's plan on a personal level. Originally Quagmire asked to...I don't remember who...how could hate the Enclave citizens for being part of the plan and not hate the SMs. And that's why: while the Master's plan wasn't what you'd call good it wasn't exactly evil while the Enclave's plan was evil from the beginning to the end.

When you mean egotism do you mean the pro-American attitude of most of the people?

See above.

What? The FEV completely removes the ability jealousy, hatred and all antogonistic feelings?[/url]

It doesn't and it can't. The way the Master, the Lieutenant and Marcus express it it seems that the FEV just gives to the mutated more control over them.

got to love how the Master wanting to save humanity through forced mutation is okay because he believes he's saving the world

It's not "okay" because the Master believes he's right. It's "okay" becuase he isn't killing and/or enslaving the humanity.

equally as wrong and misinformed

How do you know he's wrong and misinformed? They know of San Francisco, they know of Redding, they were able to find Arroyo, they had to sent scouts in New Reno to find a partner, the Navarro troops are sent on leaves at SF. They don't gather intel? Rumors of the existence of this big NCR never reached them? Really?

Even if it's true that he doesn't know that the mainland is rebuilding than he's even more of an idiot because he's taking a decision like that without checking all the facts. Like the simple fact that humanity survived even without all their resources for all that time. And yet for this so called mutant threat he's willing to kill the population of the entire world.

 

[MMStingray]

Sorry to go back to something said on the first page but, Romans wern't facists.

 

[Ilosar]

I'm sorry, what? They knew about the hyper-secretive Brotherhood, about hidden Arroyo, about the politics of New Reno, about Vault 13, but they didn't know about the 700 000 people strong Republic? They didn't see Shady Sands or those other advanced cities from their Vertibirds? All of their contatcs never told them about it? Bullshit. Also, I think it was the pilot lady, but some Remnants in New Vegas mention the NCR from the time before the Chosen One single-handedly wiped the oh-so-superior Enclave. There is simply no way they don't know about the NCR at Fallout 2's point, it's already the biggest player in Wasteland geopolitics.

 

[Quagmire69]

Sorry to go back to something said on the first page but, Romans wern't facists.

No, but the Legion are, as someone said Caesar even looks like Musalini

the human race would die out.

You keep saying this like a broken record but have not backed it up. Thier are tribes in the rainforest that have lived in isolation for the past 40,000 years with less people.

 

[Walpknut]

Musalini? Musolini more like, and what does that have to do with the topic?

Isolationst tribes tend to have kids like bunnies, they survive but they have a huge mortality wage, they tend to get sick easier, and you find malformations on a lot of them, and that is in a world with no deathclaws and pools of radiocative goo waiting for them to fall on them.

If the enclave were to have frozen sperm and eggs, wel lI am not an expert in that topic so I ask, would they survive all that time? even if frozen? They couldn't use the population of the Vaults because the virus kills anyone who wasn't inoculated, prbably the functioning Vaults that have not been open yet. They could also use the sperm banks from Vault city, but that probably would run into the same problem, Phylis says that they only have kids every once in years and years, most of the residents are old people and the reproduction is very controlled.
But Viruses don't act the same on everybody, what if a population presented a mutation that allowed them to carry the virsu but not to suffer from it? That would be pretty dangerous fro the already small group of people.

 

[Quagmire69]

delete

 

[Quagmire69]

Destroying humanity by not allowing them to reproduce while slowly replacing them with your chosen breed. Sounds like genocide to me.

 

[The Enclave 86]

If the enclave were to have frozen sperm and eggs, wel lI am not an expert in that topic so I ask, would they survive all that time? even if frozen? They couldn't use the population of the Vaults because the virus kills anyone who wasn't inoculated, prbably the functioning Vaults that have not been open yet. They could also use the sperm banks from Vault city, but that probably would run into the same problem, Phylis says that they only have kids every once in years and years, most of the residents are old people and the reproduction is very controlled.

But Viruses don't act the same on everybody, what if a population presented a mutation that allowed them to carry the virsu but not to suffer from it? That would be pretty dangerous fro the already small group of people.

I think that they might have covered for that, how long does it take to kill the citizens on the Oil Rig? Less the 24 hours it kills it's target and according to Curling:

{211}{}{The F.E.V. toxin will only attack to humans, leaving everything else alive, better still, within a month all the mutants will be dead and the F.E.V. toxin will die out as soon as it runs out of hosts. }

As for them using frozen samples? I think that it's a sound enough idea, on the topic of Vault City however they had a population of 103 over 100 years after opening their Vault but survived any genetic stagnation through the birth cycles; so surviving with small populations is very possile here.

 

[Requete]

This whole discussion about whose genocide: Enclave's or Master's is better and why is getting ridiculous, the first created it's final solution to preserve it's precious ideal of human ala III Reich the second wanted to replace the humanity by homo mutandis again using mass executions, gulags and eugenics in the name of greater g... sorry unity ala Soviet Union. It's no suprise both were nuked by VD/Chosen One so the common people (not some theoretical ideals like Aryans or Homo Sovieticus) with all their human flaws cud rebuild the wasteland. NCR is not successor state of USA or state/commonwealth of California it's just republic established in California hence the name. Enclave has no legitimacy neither as it abandoned it's territory and people and don't control it since 2077 it claims are as valid as UK, France, Mexico or Spain. NCR has Eminent domain on any material and resources left by former USA.

 

[The Enclave 86]

This whole discussion about whose genocide: Enclave's or Master's is better and why is getting ridiculous, the first created it's final solution to preserve it's precious ideal of human ala III Reich the second wanted to replace the humanity by homo mutandis again using mass executions, gulags and eugenics in the name of greater g... sorry unity ala Soviet Union.

Why? If everyone was a Mutant incapable of hatred or whatever then the world would surely be a better place; it would have to be. Same for the Enclave takeover, 200 years after that and things would more than likely be back to pre-war standards.

Enclave has no legitimacy neither as it abandoned it's territory and people and don't control it since 2077 it claims are as valid as UK, France, Mexico or Spain. NCR has Eminent domain on any material and resources left by former USA.

You do know that government's in the real world have their own Continuity of Government protocols? They don't involve not giving up a square inch of land or saving every single citizen - not that I am sure how that even works, every city isn't some military garrison keeping it a part of that country; ever heard of a Government in exile?

 

[Quagmire69]

NCR has Eminent domain on any material and resources left by former USA.

Eminent domain! Do you even know what that is? How does the NCR have anymore domain than any other wasteland faction, what about Vault City, or the BoS. The NCR are landgrabbers controled by Brahmin barons seeking to increase their own wealth. At least you can respect the Unity soldiers for fighting for a cause greater than themselves even if you don't agree with it.

 

[Dr. Croccer]

Never said that not being a fascist makes you a pussy. The Enclave are not fascist, their the direct decedent of the US gov. Even if you don't like the US gov in real life in or this game only an idiot would seriously call them fascist. The Legion on the other hand are utterly fascist in a way that's more like Italian Fascism than German Nazism with constant references to rebuilding the Roman Empire.

The NCR are really just pretenders of Americanism when in reality their seem to represent the either the Russian or Chinese Red Army more than America. I mean come on, the Bear is their national symbol.
.

Eh, no. The Enclave are descended from the fictional US government from the series, which has gone through an entire alternate history. It's implied a lot that the pre-US govt already was heavily militarist, authoritarian and oppressive. Hell, the original Fallout starts with a happy WWI-ish propaganda clip of American soldiers in Canada shooting a prisoner and happily waving. Almost all of the Vaults have unethical experiments in them by the government in order to use their own people as test rabbits. The Enclave is just the evolution of that.

''Fascism'' really is a very broad term, as it generally refers to alot of different states throughout history. I would say that the Enclave shares alot of characteristics with fascism. Authoritarianism, a strict hierarchy, militarism, extreme patriotism coupled with equally extreme xenophobia, and so on. But it's apparantly democratic (though I don't know if it's still universal suffrage, or just a tiny elite that votes)

I wouldn't call the Legion fascist, as they're not really a country. They're rather cartoonishly evil and very unrealistic in my opinion. The lack of info on them is in stark contrast to the amount of it we usually get for other factions, which is sad. At this point they're more like the Zulus, and even that's an incorrect comparison, as at least the Zulus still had some kind of civilian life and economy.

The NCR are quite realistic in that they've got a functional government, but with its flaws.

 

[Walpknut]

^The Legion ahs an economy, they have very stable trading routes were any caravans that travels it is ensured a sae travel all the tme, they are facsists, The Legion are not suppossed to be all "THEY SLAVE PEOPLE BUT THEY MUST HAVE REDEEMING QUALITIES" no, they are more on the pragmatic side, they don't give a shit about modern sensibilities of human rights, they care about order and production, they unify triebs into themselves, they make everyone have a task or reason to be still alive, they are not nice, expecting them to be nice is idiotic, and thinking redeeming qualities is the only way to write grayness is kindo f stupid, but admitedly they weren't as developed as the NCR, probably time constraints, we'll see maybe in Obsidians's Next Fallout? hey I can dream.

Quagmire, did you know that IRL California FLag has a bear too? I mean I am not even from the USA and I know it. SHeesh, to see where your arguments finaly devolve, into sayign a bear in yoru flag makes you facists, or that because they seem russian or chinese they are ibolz, you really can't get or write any subtlety at all do you?

"The NCR are landgrabbers controled by Brahmin barons seeking to increase their own wealth. At least you can respect the Unity soldiers for fighting for a cause greater than themselves even if you don't agree with it."

oh my.... you really love yoru strawman arguemtns don't you? The NCR hs helped civilize lots of settlements, even when they have very big flaws and some of their methods have been questionable (like their use of Bishop) they are far from just a bunch of Brahmin Barosn looking for their IBOL achieved money.

 

[Quagmire69]

Wouldn’t call the Legion evil or any faction really since their all pursuing an ideal that they truly believe will save humanity, even the master. The only evil faction in my mind are the raiders since they contribute nothing and only care about themselves. I think a some people made the false judgment that I support the Enclaves Curling project. I don’t, I just don’t think that makes the Enclave evil since they think that it is the only way to save humanity. I mentioned that the SM should be hunted down not because of good or evil, but because of the threat they pose to humanities survival.

By the way I don't hate the NCR, I just get tired of people saying that they are morally superior to the other wasteland factions.

 

[Dr. Croccer]

^The Legion ahs an economy, they have very stable trading routes were any caravans that travels it is ensured a sae travel all the tme

Which isn't an economy, that's just infrastructure. It doesn't necessarily mean trade, unless the Legion have something to trade. Again, there's not alot of information on the Legion homeland. Just that they have settlements. How they work isn't really mentioned much.

they are facsists

Again, not really.

The Legion are not suppossed to be all "THEY SLAVE PEOPLE BUT THEY MUST HAVE REDEEMING QUALITIES" no, they are more on the pragmatic side, they don't give a shit about modern sensibilities of human rights, they care about order and production, they unify triebs into themselves, they make everyone have a task or reason to be still alive, they are not nice, expecting them to be nice is idiotic, and thinking redeeming qualities is the only way to write grayness is kindo f stupid

I don't care about redeeming qualities, it's just that the Legion aren't very convincing. The NCR and House at least have good arguments for becoming the rulers of the wasteland, the Legion don't. They're not pragmatic because they have such an absurd dogma. Like, Caesar basically killing himself because of some bizarre taboo on medicine, which he created himself. Their violence and totalitarianism, if anything, repels potential allies like the Van Graffs, who instead join with the Legion's enemies. Caesar's argument are just unconvincing in general as well. He claims that he wants to create discipline in the Legion itself, even though it's clear to everyone that the entire Legion has Caesar as focal point, as a God.

Let's be clear here, I don't hate the Legion. If anything, I liked them the most of all the factions, because they were the most intimidating and unique. I just dislike it how 2 dimensional and simple they are compared to the NCR.

@Quagmire

Well, obviously ''evil'' is a completely subjective term. If one group of people thinks that the only way to save humanity is to kill 90% of humans, or enslave all of them under megalomaniac god-kings, then it's safe to say that these people are mad. Extremely misguided, or even sociopathic. To the people who they try to harm, which is most of them, they are evil.

 

[Walpknut]

Caesar still has an Autodoc on his tent, its malfunctioning and thats why he is dying, The Legion is kind of obvious that they must have places where they grow their food and breed their animals, they also produce weapons and ammo, the high powers ask for tributes of food to the peopel udner their control, they also have gold reserves. The Legion forbids the use of drugs and alcohol, and they seem to punish crime in very brutal ways, I mean Raul himself says that Arizona is a lot safer after the Legion took control. But they still seem not that well developed, time constraints.

 

[Courier]

Which isn't an economy, that's just infrastructure. It doesn't necessarily mean trade, unless the Legion have something to trade. Again, there's not alot of information on the Legion homeland. Just that they have settlements. How they work isn't really mentioned much.

I think it's implied that they have a pretty good economy, especially by the fact that the Legion Denarii is worth twice as much as a cap.