NCR, Enclave, FEV Curling-13 (and mutants)

[Tagaziel]

What makes you think they are clueless? Grunts aren't supposed to think, they're supposed to follow orders and fight tooth and nail. The officer cadre seems intelligent and pretty educated, while the top brass (Hsu, Hanlon, Moore, Oliver, Kimball, Crocker) is a very capable, well educated and experiened grup (the war hawks, while misguided, are far from stupid).

That said, I'm sure the NCR knows about the FEV and its connection to supermutants; however, since it's very sensitive information, it's likely kept confidential, on a strict need-to-know basis. Remember, the Brotherhood of Steel was aware of both Mariposa and FEV-II, while Vree confirmed the source of supermutants. Since they helped the fledgling NCR as a research house, it's not far fetched to assume that they gave the Republic this vital piece of intelligence.

And show trials how? The Enclave was never a political rival to the NCR, they were merely an organization that planned total genocide of the human species and as such they were considered war criminals and treated as such.

 

[Quagmire69]

What throne?
While we associate Imperialistic tendencies to the United States, and its line of successive presidents in general come from a group of people who often already stood out due to financial or previous political power, the US still isn't a monarchy.

Yes I know its a figure of speech but its brought up to give an idea of how you think apparently government seems to work in the US.

Thats how the US government does work. It the president is killed the Vice President takes over. If the Vice President is killed the speaker of the House takes over, and so on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ivation_for_changes_to_the_succession_in_1945

Legally the Enclave are the Legitimate government by US law.

Before Fallout 2 the NCR did not even know that the Enclave existed, let alone that it had its origins in the old world US government.

The NCR went after the Enclave because of their genocidal tendencies

That makes no sense. How could they be aware of intimate knowledge of the Enclave like FEV project, while not knowing its origin. Since this is not talked about by any characters including high ranking Brotherhood Elders, then I think its clear that they have no knowledge about the project. They probably see the Enclave as a threat due to Enclave military excursions, and seeing how deadly they were to the Brotherhood, that coupled with the fact that they were an ideological threat caused them to attack.
In all likelihood the only ones who know about about the Enclaves plan that are still alive would be Markus, The Lone Wanderer, and Colonel Autumn.

 

[Courier]

That's not really the same as a monarchy with a throne. If the president dies then the vice-president only "takes over" for the remainder of their term.

 

[Quagmire69]

Its an analogy, I'm not literally saying that the US is a monarchy, i'm saying that in the event of a nuclear apocalyptic the line of succession would matter sense we really can't have normal elections in the wasteland.

 

[Courier]

It doesn't matter in the Fallout universe because on the day the bombs dropped the United States ceased to exist.

 

[The Enclave 86]

It doesn't matter in the Fallout universe because on the day the bombs dropped the United States ceased to exist.

No it didn't. Maybe in some bullshit, practically or effectively way but technically it didn't. It would be prudent to assume that someone on the Presidential Line of Succession was a secret member of the Enclave, who therefore, could rather justifyably, become the Acting President of the United States. The Enclave is not and never was an official organisation, it was a name for a group of powerful people whom all worked together and it is safe to assume that many politicians, scientists and such filled it's ranks. As an organisation it died when the bombs fell and it's members became the government proper as opposed to merely the puppet masters. Notice how Richardson's title is President of the United States and he addresses himself as such, he never even says Enclave once.

My point is that the legal power was passed to members of the Enclave aboard the ENCLAVE, whom could have established an emergency congress, assuming of course that the Enclave had several senators and such among them) and propose and ratify any Amendment to the US Constitution that they desired.

I've had this discussion once before behind enemy lines on the Bethesda Forums, it's 3 am here, for a more detailed arguement read there.

 

[Courier]

The United States is not some sort of throne that can be inherited. When the states dissolved, so did the Union. The Enclave can be seen as a continuation of the American Federal government, but they aren't actually the United States.

Once the bombs dropped, all of the states effectively seceded from the Union. Without states there can be no Union or Federal government anymore.

 

[Quagmire69]

Once the bombs dropped, all of the states effectively seceded from the Union. Without states there can be no Union or Federal government anymore.

You have very little knowlege of legally what has happened in America sense the Civil War. STATES RIGHTS ARE SHIT. Its not about the states any more. The line of succession proves it, the government does not go to the governor of goergia, it goes the the secretary of treasury. I know for sure that it definitly does not go to the FUCKING NCR as Moreno described the would be hiers of the American system.

 

[Yamu]

A government may follow a set of ideals, but it is not some ideal, ethereal thing existing for its own sake. It is a group of people using the equipment and resources available to them to impose their will or maintain order and prosperity in a defined physical region. Once a government stops doing this, it is no longer a government.

There's plenty of historical precedent, even if we Americans don't like to acknowledge it-- governments come and go, as high-minded as they may be or claim to be, and regardless of the Enclave's origins, they no longer have any claim to the land that they don't directly occupy. On paper, perhaps it could be argued that they're still America. They can make the Constitution say whatever they want. Show the constitution to your average wastelander, though, and they're liable to use it for shitpaper whether they can read it or not. In the real world, a government can only maintain legitimacy in one of two ways: by the consent of the governed or by force. Most Wastelanders hadn't even heard of the Enclave until they'd been blown up, so the former is right out, and as of New Vegas they've demonstrated at least a 40-year legacy of failing at the latter (and that's if you don't count the 200-year buildup to occupation!). Couple that with the fact that they've done nary a thing to assist "their constituency" in all the 200 years since the war, and I'd say they don't really have much of a case for rightful stewardship.

 

[LinkPain]

In all likelihood the only ones who know about about the Enclaves plan that are still alive would be Markus, The Lone Wanderer, and Colonel Autumn.

That's two unless you didn't waste Autumn which is impossible.
Enclave killed Deathclaws from Vault 13 which is a legend among former NCR, when they achieved it's right coordinates it's 100% sure they went in. And that Vault was bound to store some info about government. Other than that when they invaded Navarro they took Vertibirds (Kimball rides on one) and scraped Power Armor for them. So they had all the computers and information in the world that they could want at that point. It's not that they don't know, it's to what extent do they know about experiments and FEV. And i don't need to mention that Vault Dweller stored info about FEV and Unity in Vault 13 computers.

I know for sure that it definitly does not go to the FUCKING NCR as Moreno described the would be hiers of the American system.

It goes to the one who is still alive methinks. And has a really big gun. maybe NCR is some quasi Texas like state now, but in the future it is bound to be more than that. And Enclave cannot be a legal representative for the election of president choice anymore. If they weren't so much like US "kill all, talk about democracy later" then wasteland would be a much better place.

 

[The Enclave 86]

A government may follow a set of ideals, but it is not some ideal, ethereal thing existing for its own sake. It is a group of people using the equipment and resources available to them to impose their will or maintain order and prosperity in a defined physical region. Once a government stops doing this, it is no longer a government.

There's plenty of historical precedent, even if we Americans don't like to acknowledge it-- governments come and go, as high-minded as they may be or claim to be, and regardless of the Enclave's origins, they no longer have any claim to the land that they don't directly occupy. On paper, perhaps it could be argued that they're still America. They can make the Constitution say whatever they want. Show the constitution to your average wastelander, though, and they're liable to use it for shitpaper whether they can read it or not. In the real world, a government can only maintain legitimacy in one of two ways: by the consent of the governed or by force. Most Wastelanders hadn't even heard of the Enclave until they'd been blown up, so the former is right out, and as of New Vegas they've demonstrated at least a 40-year legacy of failing at the latter (and that's if you don't count the 200-year buildup to occupation!). Couple that with the fact that they've done nary a thing to assist "their constituency" in all the 200 years since the war, and I'd say they don't really have much of a case for rightful stewardship.

I'll take on paper over nothing at all. I doesn't have the ability to act on it's claim to the mainland because of their small numbers (something which Richardson mentions when you talk to him, how even if they worked together the Enclave would be hopelessy outnumbered). The Enclave didn't intend to govern the wastelanders and in-fact didn't consider them citizens of the United States, if the Enclave Patrolmans line of "You're an illegal alien on US Territory." They could make the constitution say whatever they want, but it still doesn't invalidate it does it?

And Enclave cannot be a legal representative for the election of president choice anymore. If they weren't so much like US "kill all, talk about democracy later" then wasteland would be a much better place.

I would argue that if the Enclave just won the world would be a better place. Imagine what they do with nothing in their way, farms, schools, towns and cities would all eventually be built. But they already had anyway right? Well they'll all be garunteed safe from raider attacks and will all be pretty advanced settlements, farming the Enclave's GM soy beans and stuff like that. That's the way I see it anyway.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

That makes no sense. How could they be aware of intimate knowledge of the Enclave like FEV project, while not knowing its origin. Since this is not talked about by any characters including high ranking Brotherhood Elders, then I think its clear that they have no knowledge about the project. They probably see the Enclave as a threat due to Enclave military excursions, and seeing how deadly they were to the Brotherhood, that coupled with the fact that they were an ideological threat caused them to attack.
In all likelihood the only ones who know about about the Enclaves plan that are still alive would be Markus, The Lone Wanderer, and Colonel Autumn.

-The Brotherhood knows of the FEV and at one time they were allied with the NCR
-In FO2 the BoS knows of the Enclave
-After the end of FO2 a new prosper settlement is founded with survivors of the Enclave experiments
-In FO2 you can find defectors like the captain of the tanker that knew that the Enclave was up to no good
-The FO2 companions knew of the plan
-In the NCR in FO2 you can find a defector Enclave scientist that knew what the Enclave was trying to do

But no, you are right. There's no way that the NCR could knew somehow of the genocidal plan of the Enclave.

In the real world, a government can only maintain legitimacy in one of two ways: by the consent of the governed or by force.

This.

 

[The Enclave 86]

Those who didn't agree left the Enclave and joined wasteland communities like Arcade Gannon's father and his old squad.

Wellt they left, after the battle, you think Moreno's the deserter type?

I have a different question now, why do you seem to want to elevate the Enclave on a pedestal?
Them being wounded and misunderstood, only wanting to bring peace and unity to the country?
The organization was mostly established to take one day control of the US government, a government elected by the people, and survive a nuclear holocaust while letting the ordinary man perish outside, or experiment on them in Vaults in order to get test data for their space colonization program.
Experiments that often ended disastrously.

Largely because it's true, the Enclave is massively understood, rebuilding America is exactly what it wants to do; it just has to do something obscene and evil before it can do that. The Enclave legitmacy obviously varies between people, regardless the Enclave believe it. They have no way to police the mainland and nobody on the mainland respects their authority anyway, both pre-and-post Oil Rig I could see the NCR attacking the Enclave, someone who it could outnumber possibly by a factor of x700. I agree, the NCR & BoS wanted the Enclave's gear, and more than likely they posed a threat if just left there idly (though judging from Acrade's comments they waited several years to do so).

The way I see the Enclave is that they %100 garunteed that the US would survive, they usurped the Vault Programme to get social data when those people could have been immeasurably valuable (indeed the only thing I ever disagree with, when it comes to the Enclave, are the Vaults; open those fuckers up and repatriat!), why? To build the stable world of the future (indeed Richardson says that they are providing a worthy sacrifice for the good of their country), they did the same to themselves, becoming near slave drones to authority, if it meant short-term social stability.

It was my understanding that they didn't deign to take over the government, but rather, that they already did, hence shadow government. They were all the powerplayers, the minimum number of people that it would take to effectively get anything that they wanted done.

The way I see it things would have improved immeasurably if the Enclave could just get started on the mainland, their's nobody to fight, nothing but constant progress and rebuilding from then onwards.

 

[brfritos]

The way I see the Enclave is that they %100 garunteed that the US would survive, they usurped the Vault Programme to get social data when those people could have been immeasurably valuable (indeed the only thing I ever disagree with, when it comes to the Enclave, are the Vaults; open those fuckers up and repatriat!), why? To build the stable world of the future (indeed Richardson says that they are providing a worthy sacrifice for the good of their country), they did the same to themselves, becoming near slave drones to authority, if it meant short-term social stability.
...

The way I see it things would have improved immeasurably if the Enclave could just get started on the mainland, their's nobody to fight, nothing but constant progress and rebuilding from then onwards.

Let me see, so you are saying that is perfectly justifiable to select people and decide who are worth to live and who are not?
Because that's the original Enclave plan.
When America invaded Iraq they didn't exterminated the local population, wich will make the job much easier.

Of course this progress would come at cost of the others, It's easy to preach this type of thing when is not OUR live in the math of course.

The way you say, it appears to me that the end justify the means.

[ ]'s

 

[The Enclave 86]

The way I see the Enclave is that they %100 garunteed that the US would survive, they usurped the Vault Programme to get social data when those people could have been immeasurably valuable (indeed the only thing I ever disagree with, when it comes to the Enclave, are the Vaults; open those fuckers up and repatriat!), why? To build the stable world of the future (indeed Richardson says that they are providing a worthy sacrifice for the good of their country), they did the same to themselves, becoming near slave drones to authority, if it meant short-term social stability.
...

The way I see it things would have improved immeasurably if the Enclave could just get started on the mainland, their's nobody to fight, nothing but constant progress and rebuilding from then onwards.

Let me see, so you are saying that is perfectly justifiable to select people and decide who are worth to live and who are not?
Because that's the original Enclave plan.
When America invaded Iraq they didn't exterminated the local population, wich will make the job much easier.

Of course this progress would come at cost of the others, It's easy to preach this type of thing when is not OUR live in the math of course.

The way you say, it appears to me that the end justify the means.

[ ]'s

Hey I didn't say that they were saints or even that they were good people, I just said that I thought in the long run that it would be better overall if they did win, I mean a century after the Enclave wins all of the human race won't be affiliated with the past crime right? Like Arcade Gannon doesn't deserve to die as an Enclave member because he was like four when Navarro was destroyed and never really apart of the scheme.

What I mean is that the Enclave solution, regardless of any perceived motive, garuntees, as far as I am concerned, survival for civilised man. What if the NCR falls? What if it takes the world centuries to recover and barbarians like Caesar reign for a long time? The Enclave have a good chance of truly creating a healthy, educated, motivated society at no risk from external invasion.

Genocide aside the plan still has it's flaws, how long will it take to reach even population levels equivable to a modern town? A long time, but as I say the Enclave is all about the long term; to me, this one instance may be justified if in several hundred years humanity has existed completely at peace and has completely rebuilt..

Don't get me wrong, I'm not some flag-waving fanatic, I have no connection with America at all, I'm English, and in reality, have just as little concern for it as I do any government. I just really think that in this instance I would have to agree with the Enclave simply for the far reaching effects.

 

[Quagmire69]

Agreed the Enclave may have been the best hope for the long time survival of civilised man. The NCR are not civilised, and thier president if you could call him that is about as American as the president of Azerbejan. Not that the Legion are any better but the one thing the legionaries were right about was the faseness of NCR civilization. Providing evidence to that claim is how out of place boones wife was amounstg them. Her civilized ways made her a pariah among them. Killing her trully was a mercy killing, and may well mean that the best thing civilization can hope for is a quick death now that the Enclaves practicly gone, and the BOS is not that far behind.

Honestly it was such a waste for the Brotherhood and the Enclave to fight each other seeing as how they are parrellel orginisations in many ways. They should have teemed up killed the NCR, killed the Mutants, killed the legion and thier tribal allies, and then if they were still mad kill each other.[/quote]

 

[Quagmire69]

brfitos someone always has to die no matter what. Conflict, war, death, its just what humans to, were geniticly wired this way, is'nt it logical for that if someone has to die it be the other guy.

 

[The Enclave 86]

Honestly it was such a waste for the Brotherhood and the Enclave to fight each other seeing as how they are parrellel orginisations in many ways. They should have teemed up killed the NCR, killed the Mutants, killed the legion and thier tribal allies, and then if they were still mad kill each other.

The Brotherhood and Enclave use similar military technology, aside from that their isn't another similarity. The Enclave doesn't actively seek Old World tech that it doesn't need and have a complicated system of government and a plan for the future. The Brotherhood have some kind of heriditary fraternity and are little more than over-glorified vultures with little desire to do anything other than horde guns.

 

[Quagmire69]

The Brotherhood have they flaws yes, but I still think the Enclave and Brotherhood have a common interest. Some of the Brotherhood act like vultures but some have taken on the role trying to reastablish pre war humanity. Ever played tactics? In one of the endings the Brotherhood creates a society that the Enclave would be proud of hunting down genitic devergents. In the capital wasteland ghouls are shot on sight and the player is given a bounty on killing super mutants.

But then again those are both fringe wings of the BOS of steel, as far as the Mojave variety, I say kill them all and let God sort them out.

 

[The Enclave 86]

The Brotherhood have they flaws yes, but I still think the Enclave and Brotherhood have a common interest. Some of the Brotherhood act like vultures but some have taken on the role trying to reastablish pre war humanity. Ever played tactics? In one of the endings the Brotherhood creates a society that the Enclave would be proud of hunting down genitic devergents. In the capital wasteland ghouls are shot on sight and the player is given a bounty on killing super mutants.

But then again those are both fringe wings of the BOS of steel, as far as the Mojave variety, I say kill them all and let God sort them out.

The Enclave wants everyone dead, genetic devergents are everyone else and the Enclave prefers lethal biological agents to risking their own skins. Aside from one thing which the Enclave seeks to remove permenatly simply by extinction they have nothing; the BoS only want serious mutants gone, the Enclave wants to make sure that the pre-war genealogy is not destroyed.

Conflicting societies and methods of operating, the fact that the Brotherhood shot up a lot of Enclave refugees from Navarro, the BoS have little to no government and have zero interest in establishing one and seeing as how the Enclave literally is the government then that's a pretty important flaw.