NCR, Enclave, FEV Curling-13 (and mutants)

I'm not saying with main BoS. I'm saying with one of the fringe faction of the BoS. Also death by modified FEV is off the table by now. The lone wanderer either did or did'nt carry that one out.

As far as the general war, the Enclave was just as much at fault. Horrigan killed several Brotherhood members in an unprovoaked attack. But it does'nt matter. What matters is pre war humans need to team up or die. This includes, Enclave, BoS, Vegas, Vaults. If Barnacky took control of the calculator he would be the perfect leader for pure strain humanity to rally too.
 
Quagmire69 said:
I'm not saying with main BoS. I'm saying with one of the fringe faction BoS. Also death by modified FEV is off the table by now. The lone wanderer either did or did'nt carry that one out.
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So your talking post F3 Enclave allying with the BoS? After the BoS just killed almost all of them? In reponse to your Tactics remark, I haven't played it but Styles on the Bethesda Fourms always talks about the Barklay Ending and the Chicago Enclave teaming up. Fuck that.

Quagmire69 said:
As far as the general war, the Enclave was just as much at fault. Horrigan killed several Brotherhood members in an unprovoaked attack. But I way it does'nt matter. What matters is pre war humans need to team up or die. This includes, Enclave, BoS, Vegas, Vaults.
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The BoS were spying on them so the Enclave cleaned them up, tough shit; they weren't at war then, the BoS had no idea who the Enclave were and the Enclave certainly weren't going to let them. Enclave needs to repatriat any sealed Vault Dweller Populations and Boomer type post-Vault communites (after a Genetic Compliancy Test like in F3) and start the Project again. House wants to colonise other worlds with mutant humans, he's dangerous and doesn't recognise the Enclave's authority.
 
So whats the plan then. The Enclave would need a a century of peace to regain thier numbers. And so what that the brothood of the west got into a war with them, tough shit. The Enclave of all people would relise that war is war. If you want to return pre war humanity to power your going to need to make comprimises.

Oh and with Fallout tactics the BoS defeats a faction known as the caculator, the calculator was a collective mind designed to reorginise humanity after it was safe to come out of the vaults. Its biological brain went insane due to a radiation leak. In one ending the brain can be replaced with the brain of a mutant hating member of the BoS.
 
Quagmire69 said:
So whats the plan then. The Enclave would need a a century of peace to regain thier numbers. And so what that the brothood of the west got into a war with them, tough shit. The Enclave of all people would relise that war is war. If you want to return pre war humanity to power your going to need to make comprimises.
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Err... yeah that's the exact plan. Get their numbers back after hiding somewhere pretty remote (and not hosting a fucking radio show and trying to take a useless purifier) and then just use the posion again. They weren't prepared to make comprimises in 2242 so why should they now? What would be the point of the government, the Enclave, everything all of those people died for if they essentially surrendered to the people who had kicked their arses many times. Vault Dwellers, fine, BoS absolutely not, they're tech whores and have no such goal as rebuilding government infastructure and setting up schools, farms etc.

The Enclave can operate on the long-term, they spent close to a 100 years on the Oil Rig doing nothing, they were in Raven Rock for 20 years doing nothing.
 
I'm not saying surrender to the Brotherhood. I'm talking more a non aggresion pact. I also think their thier might be factions within the Brotherhood that would be willing to join the Enclave.
 
Quagmire69 said:
Agreed the Enclave may have been the best hope for the long time survival of civilised man. The NCR are not civilised, and thier president if you could call him that is about as American as the president of Azerbejan. Not that the Legion are any better but the one thing the legionaries were right about was the faseness of NCR civilization. Providing evidence to that claim is how out of place boones wife was amounstg them. Her civilized ways made her a pariah among them. Killing her trully was a mercy killing, and may well mean that the best thing civilization can hope for is a quick death now that the Enclaves practicly gone, and the BOS is not that far behind.
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Yeha, the NCR was not civilized, I eman they just had a democratic goverment, heath care system, economy, trading routues, tecnology and a Scientific research departament, yeah thats not civilized.
ANd their president is as american as....

really? thats a point in an argument?
You really didn't pay attention to the game did you? Your arguments are based aroudn the assumption that the NCR are jsut a party of raiders that use a nice name, wich it is not.
 
Quagmire69 said:
brfitos someone always has to die no matter what. Conflict, war, death, its just what humans to, were geniticly wired this way, is'nt it logical for that if someone has to die it be the other guy.
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You really missed the philosophy class, don't you? Death is a part of life, not "you have to kill somebody". :roll:

[ ]'s
 
Furthermore, I'd like to see some factual evidence that "pure" humans (which is a stupid term, since there is no such thing as a pure human; even Curling remarks that the DNA changes are extremely subtle) are somehow inherently better than perceived mutants.

What did the Enclave, the Brotherhood and the Vaults do? Nothing, that's what. The Brotherhood might have helped the Hub a bit, but apart from eradicating the Vipers, their participation in securing the wasteland was nil. They are dying out, their "purity" causing nothing but mayhem, destruction and ultimately, their obliteration. The Enclave, apart from the mad dream to kill everyone on the continent, has done nothing to restore the American people. The Vaults? For those that opened, their lineage soon became irrelevant. Those that didn't either die on their own or are conquered.

On the other hand, the "mutants" have done far more to restore the wasteland. The NCR has created a stable, safe country, with healthcare, a standing army, protection, jobs, clean water and pure food. Other communities have prospered similarly, creating settlements far more advanced socially than the supposedly "superior" pure humans. Hell, even Enclave remnants have blended into them, recognizing their superiority (save for Orion Moreno, but he's a special case).

Hell, even Mr House, who has the best interests of humanity at heart, prefers to have the Brotherhood wiped out because of the threat they pose to wasteland humans.

Anyone who supports the Enclave is mad. Anyone who supports genocide should be shot on sight.
 
Tagaziel said:
Furthermore, I'd like to see some factual evidence that "pure" humans (which is a stupid term, since there is no such thing as a pure human; even Curling remarks that the DNA changes are extremely subtle) are somehow inherently better than perceived mutants.

What did the Enclave, the Brotherhood and the Vaults do? Nothing, that's what. The Brotherhood might have helped the Hub a bit, but apart from eradicating the Vipers, their participation in securing the wasteland was nil. They are dying out, their "purity" causing nothing but mayhem, destruction and ultimately, their obliteration. The Enclave, apart from the mad dream to kill everyone on the continent, has done nothing to restore the American people. The Vaults? For those that opened, their lineage soon became irrelevant. Those that didn't either die on their own or are conquered.

On the other hand, the "mutants" have done far more to restore the wasteland. The NCR has created a stable, safe country, with healthcare, a standing army, protection, jobs, clean water and pure food. Other communities have prospered similarly, creating settlements far more advanced socially than the supposedly "superior" pure humans. Hell, even Enclave remnants have blended into them, recognizing their superiority (save for Orion Moreno, but he's a special case).

Hell, even Mr House, who has the best interests of humanity at heart, prefers to have the Brotherhood wiped out because of the threat they pose to wasteland humans.

Anyone who supports the Enclave is mad. Anyone who supports genocide should be shot on sight.
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More than likely it takes the form of things which happened to Vault City, birth defects, fertility issues; I would imagine it would be something like that. Pure human racism isn't the primary reason that the Enclave want to kill everyone, Richardson admits that an Enclave-Mainland Co-Op might work for a while but in the end their inferiority in terms of numbers would lead to their destruction. It's thier lack of ability to maintain order and the fact that the mainland organisations like the NCR wouldn't recognise their authority.

The Enclave would greatly improve America, they kill eveyone and then they simply begin to recolonise the mainland; perhaps a century after the Project what then? The Enclave have never claimed to restore the wasteland, they want to restore America. The Remnants haven't recognised their superiority, they all (aside from Johnson) take the chance to fight the NCR, as Kreger says, "A chance for payback after all of these years." The NCR beat them at Navarro, presumably with similar steamroller tactics to everything else, the Enclave are pretty well armed after all.

The Brotherhood have never made a big deal out of being pure-humans to my knowledge, they think that their beliefs are the best but not because of some genetic difference. I believe that House thinks that the BoS will pose a threat to him, quite an adequite one too with them being whores for shiney tech as opposed to anything of substance.

Why is the Enclave's dream "mad", that implies that it is doomed to failure which it wasn't, it was about to begin. It involves some insane amount of murder but afterwards what then? What do you think that the Enclave would do afterwards? Everything that you said the NCR could do the Enclave would too; yeah among their people whom would be the only ones left, but what about the generations born after who have had no affiliation to them. From then on every human would be born into a healthy, safe, education world of continuing progress. I'm not saying the Enclave are saints, right or good; merely that just labelling them "mad" without serious consideration is rather silly. Evil, murderers, yeah sure.
 
The Brotherhood in Fallout 1, 3, and tactics did. In one they defeated the Unity. In three though they appose the Enclave they kill mutants on sight, including ghouls. In Fallout Tactics the logical ending involves your boss taking control of the Brotherhood and ridding the wasteland of mutants. I never finished playing Fallout 2, it was just far too tedious for me so I'm more acquainted with the breakaway factions of the Brotherhood.

Pure human racism isn't the primary reason that the Enclave want to kill everyone, Richardson admits that an Enclave-Mainland Co-Op might work for a while but in the end their inferiority in terms of numbers would lead to their destruction
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The Midwestern brotherhood ultimately had a far more practical solution. They were perfectly content to use tribal's and even mutants as sandbags but after they took control terminated the mutants and most likely plan of using aristocracy and selective breeding to ensure that prime humanity is in a dominant position.

The Fallout 2 Enclave solution promises more but is not very practical. One of the main problems would be lack of enough genetic stock to prevent inbreeding.
 
Quagmire69 said:
The Fallout 2 Enclave solution promises more but is not very practical. One of the main problems would be lack of enough genetic stock to prevent inbreeding.
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A lot of people mention that, perhaps forgetting that they have gone perfectly well for 150 years on the ENCLAVE, it'll take a while to develop a population even equivable to a small town, but that's an additional price.
 
So basically if their an earthquake, a meteorite, or an unexploded nuclear bomb humanity is dead. The Midwestern Brotherhood had the right idea, find a weakly held part of the country and rebuild prime humanity. Most likely the NCR, the BoS, and Legion will bludgeon each other to death and house is essentially just a Mob boss. The ones best suited to rise when they fall are, Mutants, Enclave, and Exiled Brotherhood, both in the Midwest, and the Capital Wasteland. Their may be too much bad blood between the Wasteland Brotherhood, but an alliance or at least a cease fire and maybe some trade between the Barnaky Brotherhood and the Enclave would be a good idea.
 
Quagmire69 said:
So basically if their an earthquake, a meteorite, or an unexploded nuclear bomb humanity is dead. The Midwestern Brotherhood had the right idea, find a weakly held part of the country and rebuild prime humanity. Most likely the NCR, the BoS, and Legion will bludgeon each other to death and house is essentially just a Mob boss. The ones best suited to rise when they fall are, Mutants, Enclave, and Exiled Brotherhood, both in the Midwest, and the Capital Wasteland. Their may be too much bad blood between the Wasteland Brotherhood, but an alliance or at least a cease fire and maybe some trade between the Barnaky Brotherhood and the Enclave would be a good idea.
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Perhaps, I've heard of this Barnaky/Enclave alliance before, literally 40 minutes ago I finsihed discussing it with someone on the Bethesda Forums; I'm too biased towards Richardson's Enclave to give the idea merit so I don't know.
 
Perhaps, I've heard of this Barnaky/Enclave alliance before, literally 40 minutes ago I finsihed discussing it with someone on the Bethesda Forums; I'm too biased towards Richardson's Enclave to give the idea merit so I don't know.
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It was stronly implied during the game. The guy who was the voice of Barnaky was the same guy who's the drill seargent in full metal jacket, and the same guy who's a seargent in fallout 2, and wears Enclave armour impying that Midwestern Brotherhood ended up recruiting a large amount of Enclave remants.

Your logic makes no sense Quagmire.
Are you reffering to my first sentence.
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So basically if their an earthquake, a meteorite, or an unexploded nuclear bomb humanity is dead.
Yea i did not put that in proper contex, so I can see that you would be confused. I was pointing out how the Enclaves plan in fallout 2 would risk the exstenction of all humanity by reducing our numbers too a couple thousand and having them all in one spot.
 
Then why you say that they are better than the NCR? The NCR is giving resources to their people, oportunities to prosper, the Enclave just wants their twisted idea of "pure" humans to be the only species on earth, the BoS in DC just act as glorified cops of ceratin places, they don't develop any kind of beneficial technology, they do nothing. The NCR are in war with the Legion in The Mojave, and probably is gonna escalate to something else, but thats almost a given in any society that is trying to recover and there are diverging ideas on how to do it. The NCR has better chances to prosper than the Enclave (in virtue that they are over and disoluted), or the BoS, who are dying slowly, and actualy they are part of the reason why the NCR is having over stretching problems and a suffering economy, the Super Mutants are all sterile, they can't prosper for long, one fo the reasons the Master's plan would fail miserably. House owuld be more suited than the Enclave. Even the Legion is more suited than the enclave.
 
Quagmire69 said:
Perhaps, I've heard of this Barnaky/Enclave alliance before, literally 40 minutes ago I finsihed discussing it with someone on the Bethesda Forums; I'm too biased towards Richardson's Enclave to give the idea merit so I don't know.
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It was stronly implied during the game. The guy who was the voice of Barnaky was the same guy who's the drill seargent in full metal jacket, and the same guy who's a seargent in fallout 2, and wears Enclave armour impying that Midwestern Brotherhood ended up recruiting a large amount of Enclave remants.
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You mean Arch Dornan, the Navarro drill sergeant?
That's not R. Lee Ermey, the voice of Barnaky and Sergeant Hartmann, it's Peter Jason.
 
so a pop cultural reference is a basis for an anrgument? then I guess that guy then left the BoS and joined the NCR and he is Oliver Lee.
 
Walpknut said:
Then why you say that they are better than the NCR? The NCR is giving resources to their people, oportunities to prosper, the Enclave just wants their twisted idea of "pure" humans to be the only species on earth, the BoS in DC just act as glorified cops of ceratin places, they don't develop any kind of beneficial technology, they do nothing. The NCR are in war with the Legion in The Mojave, and probably is gonna escalate to something else, but thats almost a given in any society that is trying to recover and there are diverging ideas on how to do it. The NCR has better chances to prosper than the Enclave (in virtue that they are over and disoluted), or the BoS, who are dying slowly, and actualy they are part of the reason why the NCR is having over stretching problems and a suffering economy, the Super Mutants are all sterile, they can't prosper for long, one fo the reasons the Master's plan would fail miserably. House owuld be more suited than the Enclave. Even the Legion is more suited than the enclave.
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Legion? Hardly. I base all of my support on the Richardson Enclave, without the sheer number of people weighing on it everyone in the Enclave is educated, safe etc. After the Project there will be no raiders, no threats aside from animal attacks which means that the Enclave can then easily expand. The Enclave would grow slowly and it would have time to make sure that equal support was given around. Also the Enclave would have nobody to fight, war would essentially become extinct for a very long time I imagine; this means too that there would be no one to cause logistical problems with expanding.

The Enclave would slowly expand from Navarro, it would take so long for any real population levels to be reached, but everyone alive for decades, hell, even centuries would live in a stable and safe world. A world really suited to rebuilding civilisation.

I get the feeling that the NCR grows to fast for it's own good and has a lot of demand resting on it for support from their numerous territories. No such problems would exist for the Enclave, they would expand slowly enough to mean that eveywhere had everything that it needed. Like Primm, there a prison break, their fault, and in the process of it you can secure them another territory. They just swallow everything, whereas the Enclave would be creating everything from fresh, also meaning that there would no prejudice, animosity between the occupiers and the locals etc.
 
The Enclave plan involves whipping everything that si not them form existence, efectively reducing the amount of living humans to a very small number, genetic disseases, an epidemy of any virus, natural disasters, + small population = doom.
No prejudice? Well I guess there would be no prejudice in a world were everyone is aryan, hem i mean "Pure", a plan that involves killing FUCKING EVERYONE ELSE is never a good plan, the NCR has problems overstretching, but thats mostly because of their Bush-esque administration, that f you push the out of Vegas it would probably end. The ENclave is doomed to fail on any situation.
 
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