NDAA

[Sabirah]

This is so wrong I can't even find a point to begin with. For starters, you should maybe read about Europe and realize that Great Britain is not representative of the entire Europe nor is it the only country in it.

Furthermore, you are obviously heavily prejudiced towards Europe, which is surprising, considering you don't even live here. Most muslims in Europe have integrated into society well and have no problems with conforming to existing laws and regulations (which aren't all that demanding). Yet you take the word of most vocal minorities as indicative of the state of affairs in Europe. Why is that?

Because every single European I have ever talked to has had at least a little problem with the Muslims there. Even in Ireland, and I thought those guys would be beyond the whole religious tension after the troubles there were those guys that go "Damn Sabirah, why are you Muslim? Don't you see all the oppression heaped on you from your father?" Guy didn't even know me and was making assumptions about my personal life like he was my best friend or something.

On a personal note, I find burqas highly demeaning and fuck ugly. Got nothing against normal religious headwear, though (and some of it looks quite nice).

Do you have to curse? And yeah, I find them really ugly and stupid looking too. But I'm not going to make people conced to my opinion on what they should dress (If that was the case, all of New York city would be remade with Mughal fashion and architecture )

There are anti-burqa laws in France and Belgium. You are not allowed to fully conceal your face in public there.

This is true, not that this law is intended as a tool to "oppress" Muslims. Arab women were often pressured into concealing themselves by their family/ husband thereby severely limiting their freedom and chances on the job market etc.

It's also forbidden to wear Catholic and Jewish symbols when working in the public sector.

We don't oppress anyone, we have mosques, churches, synagogues, shrines for Thor, kids are allowed to pick "their" religion of choice in schools, etc.

edit: I was talking about the situation in Belgium.

Yet there are still Muslim women who choose to wear that. Do we choose to limit human freedoms because people are uncomfortable about religion? I hope that is not where we are going

 

[White Knight]

This is so wrong I can't even find a point to begin with. For starters, you should maybe read about Europe and realize that Great Britain is not representative of the entire Europe nor is it the only country in it.

Furthermore, you are obviously heavily prejudiced towards Europe, which is surprising, considering you don't even live here. Most muslims in Europe have integrated into society well and have no problems with conforming to existing laws and regulations (which aren't all that demanding). Yet you take the word of most vocal minorities as indicative of the state of affairs in Europe. Why is that?

Because every single European I have ever talked to has had at least a little problem with the Muslims there. Even in Ireland, and I thought those guys would be beyond the whole religious tension after the troubles there were those guys that go "Damn Sabirah, why are you Muslim? Don't you see all the oppression heaped on you from your father?" Guy didn't even know me and was making assumptions about my personal life like he was my best friend or something.

You talked to a few europeans who have a problem with muslims, so you assume that the whole of europe is oppressing muslims? The fact you complain about somebody making assumptions about you only makes it more ironic.

 

[Tagaziel]

Because every single European I have ever talked to has had at least a little problem with the Muslims there. Even in Ireland, and I thought those guys would be beyond the whole religious tension after the troubles there were those guys that go "Damn Sabirah, why are you Muslim? Don't you see all the oppression heaped on you from your father?" Guy didn't even know me and was making assumptions about my personal life like he was my best friend or something.

And how many people did you talk to out of the seven-hundred-thirty-one-milion (731,000,000) Europeans? You say you are educated (biology, wasn't it?), yet you make the gravest of errors in reasoning: you assume that a miniscule sample is representative of the whole.

Have you ever considered that maybe you just have shit luck when it comes to people?

Do you have to curse? And yeah, I find them really ugly and stupid looking too. But I'm not going to make people conced to my opinion on what they should dress (If that was the case, all of New York city would be remade with Mughal fashion and architecture )

Fuck ugly is an expression meant to quantify the level of ugliness of something that exceeds regular ungliness levels. But I digress.

I've also pointed out that burkas may pose a potential security risk that outweighs the benefit of permitting them to be worn. There are very few outfits that are being actively legislated against and most of them for very good reasons.

Yet there are still Muslim women who choose to wear that. Do we choose to limit human freedoms because people are uncomfortable about religion? I hope that is not where we are going

We choose a miniscule limitation as a tool to remove the more extreme parts of immigrant culture.

And really, it's an entirely irrelevant limitation, where the benefits outweigh the losses by a great margin. Unless you feel the requirement for drivers and passengers to wear seatbelts is also an infringement of your personal liberty.

 

[Moe Canibo]

Sabirah, it's as if your knowledge of Europe came from an 80's french road flick. And a really bad one too.

 

[Crni Vuk]

yeah sab stop talking to french people

 

[Moe Canibo]

Yeah Sab, only thing they are good for is creating quasi-interesting subcultures and cheese. And don't say you didn't talk to them, YOU DID. So don't even try.

 

[Sabirah]

. And don't say you didn't talk to them, YOU DID. So don't even try.

Yay unwarranted hostility!

 

[UncannyGarlic]

We have to gamble that the courts will crush it. Roll some dice.

Then we have to gamble that a court ruling will stop the executive branch from doing what it pleases.

It's pretty clearly unconstitutional but the problem is that it has to make it to civil courts to reach the supreme court and toast the law. In other words, someone has to be tried in civil court in order for the law to have a legal decision made on it. Fortunately the ACLU will be working hard to make that happen but we'll see. To be fair, it doesn't change anything in a practical sense since this was being done anyway.

All the sudden Canada is looking like a potentially nice country to live in...America is a dying dog - morally - economically - socially.

If the US dies, Canada dies. They are heavily reliant on the US economically. That said, I've always thought that Canada was a better seeming place to live from a philosophical standpoint.

You can't even drive through London without a thousand cameras watching your every move.

It's a little creepy but it could be legally (not practically) done in the US as well, as all of the cameras are on public property.

Edit: Also, I'm begging my fellow Americans in this thread to vote for Ron Paul. I don't agree with him on several things, but he's the only candidate that actually might stop shit like this.

Obama is pretty good other than carrying on the Bush administration's desire to expand military power. Ron Paul would be a disaster for the US if he vetoed as much as he says that he would. You think that the economy is bad now, wait until you have Ron Paul not enforcing as many laws regarding regulations and government programs as possible.

That and the whole horrific racism and oppression of Muslims going on in Europe pretty much guarantees I'd never move there.

Try visiting rural America and tell me that Europe is half as bad. The whole country isn't that bad but it's still probably worse that Europe on the whole.

Here in New York we are chill to every race and religion. My sister lives down in Virginia and they are really cool there too.

Not all of New York is that tolerant but yes, big cities in the US do have more diversity and tolerance. That said, there are still parts of the city that would be quite nasty for you to visit.

There are Anti burqa laws, and the banning of ziggarats, and tons of other just random acts of intolerance. Europe is at a crossroads ethnically right now.

There have been attempts in the US to disallow teachers to wear burqas.

They can be nice and fuse together with their immigrant population, or they can continue and treat them like second class citizens and then act shocked when they fight back like any cornered animal.

Fight back in what way? The most effective civil rights movements have been the ones led by leaders who preach non-violence.

Outlawing burqa is completely justified and rational. Letting someone to enter let's say a bank wearing one would be absolutely ridicilous and batshit crazy.

Yes and no. It's a complicated issue because burqas are perfect for concealing contraband but freedom of religion and speech make it difficult to restrict. I also think that there is something to be said about integration into society as a whole that some newer immigrants are struggling with. Granted, it's partly due to a lack of government outreach but it's also partly due to self-inflicted isolation. I'd also point out that not all mulims are that conservative, I went to highschool with a few muslim girls who went with a headscarf and conservative clothing in lieu of the full burqa with hood.

I'm in the Bible belt, and that is bullshit. We hate all people equally.

Indeed and it's frightening. I'd also point out that the mentality of the Bible belt is pretty much all of rural US. For example I lived in rural Washington for awhile and it was scary, they were trying to ban Silent Spring in the late 90's.

Yay unwarranted hostility!

You really need to work on your ability to pick up on jokes.

 

[Sabirah]

That and the whole horrific racism and oppression of Muslims going on in Europe pretty much guarantees I'd never move there.

Try visiting rural America and tell me that Europe is half as bad. The whole country isn't that bad but it's still probably worse that Europe on the whole.

Again, my sister lives down in a rather rural area. When I go down there the only ones who are mean it seems are the dollar store clerks. (who are always mean for some reason, no matter what the city it's uncanny)

Here in New York we are chill to every race and religion. My sister lives down in Virginia and they are really cool there too.

Not all of New York is that tolerant but yes, big cities in the US do have more diversity and tolerance. That said, there are still parts of the city that would be quite nasty for you to visit.

Well yeah Newark is pretty bad and the entire under 19 population of Staten Island are as rock stupid as you can get but It's more ignorance than "they are taking our culture away so let's force western society down them" intolerance

There are Anti burqa laws, and the banning of ziggarats, and tons of other just random acts of intolerance. Europe is at a crossroads ethnically right now.

There have been attempts in the US to disallow teachers to wear burqas.

Ones that I doubt will pass because of the first amendment.

They can be nice and fuse together with their immigrant population, or they can continue and treat them like second class citizens and then act shocked when they fight back like any cornered animal.

Fight back in what way? The most effective civil rights movements have been the ones led by leaders who preach non-violence.

Fight back like uneducated people without a real cultural identity tend to do. Civil rights is almost always peacefully goten yes, Us Indians know that better than anybody but young men (or men in general ) rarely see the reasonable way of doing things.

I'd also point out that not all mulims are that conservative, I went to highschool with a few muslim girls who went with a headscarf and conservative clothing in lieu of the full burqa with hood.

And that's most of us. I've said it before, I only wear a headscarf at work and with the family, That's how most of us operate.

Yay unwarranted hostility!

You really need to work on your ability to pick up on jokes.

My apologies, it's hard to read humor on the web at times.

 

[Crni Vuk]

. And don't say you didn't talk to them, YOU DID. So don't even try.

Yay unwarranted hostility!

we are just mocking you com on

 

[TorontoReign]

I think if it ever came down to it the vast majority of Americans will completely sacrifice their freedom for security, even though they don't necessarily understand the implications behind that choice. I am from a pretty low-income community that tends to believe everything they see on TV without understanding the dangers of such mindsets.

I can't count how many times I had discussions with people about Iraq, and they simply said we should nuke their country. I used to say stupid shit like that when I was 18, but these comments are from older individuals that should know better. People wanted to completely destroy Iraq for what? The Tv is where many people get their news, but they don't realize that the media is corrupt, and often slants things to fit their agenda. Our liberty has been stripped away because of a War on Terror, but the real threat is our own government. It's all a fucking joke. If you believe things like this once you were called a conspiracy theorist, but more people are waking up.

I think Watchman had it right. The American Dream has finally came true.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/01/14-6

 

[Sub-Human]

Of course, terrorism will never “surrender” and end this particular “war.”

Reminds me of 1984, an endless war, pfft.

Interesting that Obama hasn't made any increases in his own power yet. I.e. Medvedev made the 4-years a 6-years, which would almost likely be increased afterwards, if not the late rallies.

 

[Courier]

Obama is pretty good other than carrying on the Bush administration's desire to expand military power.

The Patriot Act, NDAA, the Solyndra scandal, Operation Fast & Furious, Libyan war...

Obama just has too much going against him. After all the shit he's done you'd be stupid to vote for him again.


Personally though I'd vote for Gary Johnson if he had any chance in hell of winning, he's pretty much Ron Paul without all the crazy.

Edit: NDAA is in direct violation of the 5th and 6th amendments. Why would you vote for anyone who obviously doesn't even give a fuck about your basic constitutional rights? Voting for Obama is just voting for four more years of Bush at this point.

 

[Crni Vuk]

the problem is actually that if you go to vote now ... you pretty much have only the option to chose between the pest and cholera.

 

[Moe Canibo]

Pretty much, you don't have a single sane candidate, every one of them is some kind of batshit crazy rich conservative Jesus cuckoo. BTW, what is the difference between the republicans and the democrats? I know the democrats are supposed to be left but here where i live they would be considered far right, wich makes me scared to even ask what the republicans who are actually supposed to be far right represent.

 

[Courier]

Pretty much, you don't have a single sane candidate, every one of them is some kind of batshit crazy rich conservative Jesus cuckoo.

Not all the candidates, just the candidates that actually have a chance of winning. Ron Paul is slightly better than the other candidates in this aspect since, even though he's still heavily religious, he doesn't want to force any sort of religious legislation on the people.

BTW, what is the difference between the republicans and the democrats? I know the democrats are supposed to be left but here where i live they would be considered far right, wich makes me scared to even ask what the republicans who are actually supposed to be far right represent.

There isn't one. It just appeals to the less intelligent citizen's tribal tendencies (hurr durr my team is better than yours).

 

[Moe Canibo]

Thx Courier. One more thing please. From what i've read the Ron Paul guy and his faction are supposed to be libertarians (anarchists) but they are right wing rich religious capitalists. WTF? Please explain me that, i can't wrap my head around that one. :I

 

[Hassknecht]

Thx Courier. One more thing please. From what i've read the Ron Paul guy and his faction are supposed to be libertarians (anarchists) but they are right wing rich religious capitalists. WTF? Please explain me that, i can't wrap my head around that one. :I

There is a song by a german songmaker that explains it perfectly.
They want total freedom. For them, at least. No goverment messing with their business, no pesky laws stopping them from doing absolutely anything to become richer.
And total freedom for the working class, too.
No responsibility but your own (which to the rich folks means that they don't have to pay money to the lesser people), having (in theory) the chance to do everything if you just set your mind to it.

 

[Sabirah]

There isn't one. It just appeals to the less intelligent citizen's tribal tendencies (hurr durr my team is better than yours).

I know man, we here at NMA are true geniuses at everything aand are better than everybody. That's why we talk about fallout on the internet rather than solving world hunger or curing cancer

 

[Moe Canibo]

There is a song by a german songmaker that explains it perfectly.
They want total freedom. For them, at least. No goverment messing with their business, no pesky laws stopping them from doing absolutely anything to become richer.
And total freedom for the working class, too.
No responsibility but your own (which to the rich folks means that they don't have to pay money to the lesser people), having (in theory) the chance to do everything if you just set your mind to it.

So they somehow managed to twist a liberal far left philosophy to serve their conservativism and power hunger. That's just great. Choke on your caviar turds.

EDIT: Link me the song if you can find it please.