New screenshots

[BowserJesus]

Then hope they release the construction kit and fix it yourself.

I'll be happy to. I assume I will be paid for this, right, since I'm doing their job for 'em? No? Then fuck 'em.

Oh you want to get paid? The maybe make a game of your own, instead of pelting Bethesda.

 

[Per]

Why should the willingness to do a developer's job for them be a prerequisite for commenting on their game? I don't follow. Do we have to wait until the mod tools are released before gaining the right to "pelt Bethesda", since before then we can't do anything anyway?

 

[Ad Astra]

Oh you want to get paid? The maybe make a game of your own, instead of pelting Bethesda.

So, you're saying we shouldn't expect a game company to to make, ya know, finished games? Maybe something that doesn't require thousands of third-party fixes before it's playable?

 

[Black]

Then hope they release the construction kit and fix it yourself.

I'll be happy to. I assume I will be paid for this, right, since I'm doing their job for 'em? No? Then fuck 'em.

Oh you want to get paid? The maybe make a game of your own, instead of pelting Bethesda.

Oh so you want the users to fix the game?

Your logic is amazing

 

[rcorporon]

So, you're saying we shouldn't expect a game company to to make, ya know, finished games? Maybe something that doesn't require thousands of third-party fixes before it's playable?

Does the abundance of fan made Fallout patches mean that Fallout 1 and 2 weren't finished when released?

By and large, most mods are just that, modifications. People changing aspects of a game that they don't like to better suit their tastes.

I don't think that making mods to remove or add features that you want in a game is "doing the job of the development company.'

 

[BowserJesus]

Exactly, everyone speaks as if FO1/2 were perfect. They weren't, live with it.

 

[Madbringer]

Does the abundance of fan made Fallout patches mean that Fallout 1 and 2 weren't finished when released?

Actually, Fallout 2 was one of the buggiest and castrated-on-release games i've ever played.

Take Killap's work, for example - he has a one gigantic motherfucker of a patch that fixes hundreds, if not, thousands, of bugs that were left after even after applying several official patches, AND the restoration mod which brings back content which was supposed to be in the game, but didn't make it.

I, personally, would go as far as to say that Fallout 2, was, indeed, a game not finished on release. ;P

There are mods which add/remove stuff a person doesn't like, and then, there are mods which fix shit the developers fucked up. There is a difference.

And spending countless hours making a game be played like it should have been - you're damn right someone doing this would expect to get paid. Of course, design choices don't really fall under 'fixable' category. It just shows someone abuses pot/is a silly person.

HI I'M A TALKING DEATHCLAW.

HI I'M A HAIRY, TALKING DEATHCLAW.

HI I'M A TICKET MACHINE KILLING SUPAMUTANTS LOL.

HI I'M NUKULAR LONCHER.

HI I'M SLOW-MO DEATHS.

I HAS A BOBBLEHED, I'M MORE AGILE.

etc.

 

[Brother None]

Does the abundance of fan made Fallout patches mean that Fallout 1 and 2 weren't finished when released?

By and large, most mods are just that, modifications. People changing aspects of a game that they don't like to better suit their tastes.

We're not talking about fan-made mods, we're talking about fan-made patches. The final patch for Oblivion doesn't come anywhere near to fixing all its bugs. That puts Oblivion in a list with atrociously insulting releases like Fallout 2 and Vampire: Bloodlines, but for some mystifying reason Bethesda never gets any flak for it, while the buggy state of the other two is often lamented.

Oh you want to get paid? The maybe make a game of your own, instead of pelting Bethesda.

Please stop talking in these random unconnected non-sequitors, you're making zero sense. You suggest we fix a professional product that is broken upon release, and when I suggest that fixing a professional's work usually comes with monetary compensation you say I should...make my own game? The hell?

And everyone speaking as if Fo1/2 were perfect doesn't even remotely relate to any point you make, so I have no idea why you interjected yourself there.

Seriously, do you have any valid points of discussion to bring to the table?

 

[BowserJesus]

Oh you want to get paid? The maybe make a game of your own, instead of pelting Bethesda.

Please stop talking in these random unconnected non-sequitors, you're making zero sense. You suggest we fix a professional product that is broken upon release, and when I suggest that fixing a professional's work usually comes with monetary compensation you say I should...make my own game? The hell?

Lets take this one step at a time, k?

1. The game is not broken. Broken would imply it doesn't work, at all. Just because something isn't made to your standards doesn't mean it's outright broken.

2. All games come out with errors, bugs, glitches, and mistakes. Even if someone comes along and fixes some bugs on a game, there is the chance more will pop-up, anyway.

3. Yes, make your own game. How hard is the concept to understand? If you think Bethesda is doing it wrong, you make your own game. Because you've obviously got everything figured out and brainstormed, amirite?

And everyone speaking as if Fo1/2 were perfect doesn't even remotely relate to any point you make, so I have no idea why you interjected yourself there.

It relates to the point that you said you wanted compensation for "fixing a broken game" like if FO1/2 were perfect jewels and did not need any fixing.

Seriously, do you have any valid points of discussion to bring to the table?

Yes, do you?

 

[Kyuu]

1. The game is not broken. Broken would imply it doesn't work, at all. Just because something isn't made to your standards doesn't mean it's outright broken.

Semantics, you completely failed to address the actual point.

2. All games come out with errors, bugs, glitches, and mistakes. Even if someone comes along and fixes some bugs on a game, there is the chance more will pop-up, anyway

A useless argument. The point is about bugs that significantly impact the game and/or make it downright unplayable, and the right to criticize these bugs. It's not about saying Fallout 1/2 were perfect and bug-free. Are you slow or something?

3. Yes, make your own game. How hard is the concept to understand? If you think Bethesda is doing it wrong, you make your own game. Because you've obviously got everything figured out and brainstormed, amirite?

More uselessness. You're arguing that people shouldn't criticize others' work, and instead should go out and spend their time and resources making their own. Your brand new car blows a gasket after 100 miles? Don't complain or criticize, go build your own car. Someone kills your aunt? Don't complain or criticize, go reproduce and make your own human being who won't kill your relatives. Don't like a the graffiti someone spray painted on your neighborhood mailbox? Don't complain or criticize, go and spray your own graffiti.

It relates to the point that you said you wanted compensation for "fixing a broken game" like if FO1/2 were perfect jewels and did not need any fixing.

... Did you listen to anything that was said or do you just like looking willfully ignorant on internet message boards?

Also, the whole responding to quotes inside the quote with bold text isn't really a very good method. At first I scrolled down all the way to the end of your post assuming you had simply quoted BN's entire post for some unknown reason, then noticed your post was nothing but a quote and reread. But hey, if you like it then whatever. Just making a suggestion.

 

[Ad Astra]

Does the abundance of fan made Fallout patches mean that Fallout 1 and 2 weren't finished when released?

The bug-fix lists for Fallout 1 patches are nothing like the Unofficial Oblivion Patch. As for Fallout 2, I would argue that it is fairly playable with the official patch in place, but the amount of unimplemented material makes it a more "unfinished" game, but nowhere near the level of Oblivion.

 

[BowserJesus]

Semantics, you completely failed to address the actual point.

A useless argument. The point is about bugs that significantly impact the game and/or make it downright unplayable, and the right to criticize these bugs. It's not about saying Fallout 1/2 were perfect and bug-free. Are you slow or something?

Have you played FO3? Have you found any bugs that make the game unplayable? My guess is that your answer is, "no", therefore the game is not broken as Brother None said it was. I'm sure the game will not have any game breaking bugs. We were actually discussing modifying the game through the use of the construction kits Bethesda usually provides for their games.

More uselessness. You're arguing that people shouldn't criticize others' work, and instead should go out and spend their time and resources making their own. Your brand new car blows a gasket after 100 miles? Don't complain or criticize, go build your own car. Someone kills your aunt? Don't complain or criticize, go reproduce and make your own human being who won't kill your relatives. Don't like a the graffiti someone spray painted on your neighborhood mailbox? Don't complain or criticize, go and spray your own graffiti.

Don't come up with absurd analogies to support your argument.
I have used mods for FO2, why you guys cannot simply make a fallout 2 mod and continue the saga of the vault dweller is beyond me.

... Did you listen to anything that was said or do you just like looking willfully ignorant on internet message boards?

If I'm so ignorant why do you take it upon yourself to be hostile and insult me? I'm merely making points on things you say and responding accordingly.

Also, the whole responding to quotes inside the quote with bold text isn't really a very good method. At first I scrolled down all the way to the end of your post assuming you had simply quoted BN's entire post for some unknown reason, then noticed your post was nothing but a quote and reread. But hey, if you like it then whatever. Just making a suggestion.

First you insult me and then you make a suggestion?

Does the abundance of fan made Fallout patches mean that Fallout 1 and 2 weren't finished when released?

The bug-fix lists for Fallout 1 patches are nothing like the Unofficial Oblivion Patch. As for Fallout 2, I would argue that it is fairly playable with the official patch in place, but the amount of unimplemented material makes it a more "unfinished" game, but nowhere near the level of Oblivion.

Yes, but we're not talking about Oblivion specifically. We have no way of knowing if FO3 will even follow in it's foot steps and only ship with half the promised features. The point I'm trying to make here is that we're all crying, "DOOM!", without having played through the game yet.

Yet every time I point it out, some of you guys take it upon yourselves to pelt me with, "OMGLOL R U SIRIUS?" remarks.

 

[Wooz]

The point I'm trying to make here is that we're all crying, "DOOM!", without having played through the game yet.

Yet every time I point it out, some of you guys take it upon yourselves to pelt me with, "OMGLOL R U SIRIUS?" remarks.

See, if I go to a restaurant and get a dead dog instead of the steak I ordered, I'm certainly not staying around for dessert.

Not to mention I'd have some serious doubts about their delicious lasagna everybody's talking about.

 

[aronsearle]

Yes, but we're not talking about Oblivion specifically. We have no way of knowing if FO3 will even follow in it's foot steps and only ship with half the promised features. The point I'm trying to make here is that we're all crying, "DOOM!", without having played through the game yet.

If they did it before, why would you give them the benifit of the doubt?

Would you go back to a resturant that served you burnt food, would you buy the same model of a car that broke down regularly, would you buy from a brand that has produced sub standard goods to you previosly, well, possibly, but more fool you.

So why is it we have people going "ZOMG you havnt played the game, you cant critisize them yet", whereas in any other industry it's perfectly acceptable to critisize a company for past mistakes.

The onus is on them to produce the goods to an acceptable standard, seeming as i can't find any quotes from them accepting that they released oblivion at a very buggy state, or quotes admitting that they did not, and still have no intention of patching it, what possible motivation have you got for giving them the benifit of the doubt, regardless of who they are or what they produce.

 

[Ad Astra]

Yes, but we're not talking about Oblivion specifically. We have no way of knowing if FO3 will even follow in it's foot steps and only ship with half the promised features. The point I'm trying to make here is that we're all crying, "DOOM!", without having played through the game yet.

Considering the massive number of screenshots, the multiple gameplay videos as well as previews based on time spent with the game, and the extensive interviews from Todd Howard and Peter Hines, the "We don't know enough!" line is beyond stupid.

Yet every time I point it out, some of you guys take it upon yourselves to pelt me with, "OMGLOL R U SIRIUS?" remarks.

It might have something to do with the fact that what you're pointing out is ridiculous. And if that's really your idea of the level of conversation here, then I must ask, what the hell are you doing here?

 

[ookami]

Don't like a the graffiti someone spray painted on your neighborhood mailbox? Don't complain or criticize, go and spray your own graffiti.

No, you should just accept the graffiti because all the other buildings have graffiti on them. I mean it's stupid to strive to have a building without graffiti on it, right? Don't worry, someone else will fix it later. Maybe. If they're even able to get the materials necessary to at least cover it up. Probably not, though.

 

[Buxbaum666]

The total lack of shadows really disturbs me. You would expect a "Next-Gen" game to at least have proper lighting. I mean, they've been able to produce realistic shadows for years now. I hope it's a console issue and will be fixed for the PC version. But I fear it won't.

Don't come up with absurd analogies to support your argument.
I have used mods for FO2, why you guys cannot simply make a fallout 2 mod and continue the saga of the vault dweller is beyond me.

Heh. You do realize that this would be very hard to do? Many people would have to sacrifice large amounts of free time. Fallout is just not very modder-friendly. Take Mutants Rising, the mod has been in the works for a decade or so. There is no SDK, the mapper is mediocre and lots of stuff is hard-coded. It would be a blessing if the source code would be released, but I fear this will never happen.

Also, the whole responding to quotes inside the quote with bold text isn't really a very good method.

First you insult me and then you make a suggestion?

Anyway, could you please stop that and quote proberly? It's annoying.

 

[MrBumble]

Exactly, everyone speaks as if FO1/2 were perfect. They weren't, live with it.

No...Everyone speaks as if Bethesda opted for 1st person perspective for the sake of immershun. If you choose to modify a gameplay so deeply just for the sake of immershun, then you better deliver and indeed come with immershun and "eye-popping visuals". Bethesda did not come with either. You know, I think nobody here REALLY cares that Bethesda did not come with better level-design/graphics per se, but most of us hate it because it was used as an excuse for raping Fallout's gameplay and coming with a possibly mediocre action-rpg.

 

[Brother None]

BJ: that's better. Do learn to use quotes, tho', it's not hard.

1. The game is not broken. Broken would imply it doesn't work, at all. Just because something isn't made to your standards doesn't mean it's outright broken.

You're acting as if there's some linear divide between broken and working perfectly. It's not that simple, Bethesda is selling their game at full-price range which means I can expect, as a consumer, that their game is up to standards of design of other games of this time.

Now, part of what modders do is indeed just adapting the game to their preference, but another (large) part of it is actually improving the game. This includes the patch listed above which fixes literally thousands of bugs Bethesda left in their game, but it also includes fixes to graphics, animations, collision detection and other game elements that Bethesda simply did not provide up to standard.

That does mean - in fact - that modders are doing Bethesda's job for them, which was the original point.

2. All games come out with errors, bugs, glitches, and mistakes. Even if someone comes along and fixes some bugs on a game, there is the chance more will pop-up, anyway.

I'm afraid that's no excuse for games like Fallout 2, Bloodlines or Oblivion, which were beyond reasonable levels of bugginess on release.

3. Yes, make your own game. How hard is the concept to understand? If you think Bethesda is doing it wrong, you make your own game. Because you've obviously got everything figured out and brainstormed, amirite?

I'm unclear on what you're saying. Are you saying that being critical obliges me to make my own game?

It relates to the point that you said you wanted compensation for "fixing a broken game" like if FO1/2 were perfect jewels and did not need any fixing.

Fallout 2's bugginess has been discussed, but it took more than half a decade for serious modding of these games to get underway.

Nobody demands perfection, but there is a difference between releasing a game that people still feel is fine to play with the basic patch now (Fallout 1) or a game that many consumers find completely unplayable without fan-made patches and mods (Oblivion).

Since Fallout 3 has already been shown to have some major texturing, animation and bumpmapping issues, I can guarantee it will need professional polish just as much as Oblivion did.

The point I'm trying to make here is that we're all crying, "DOOM!", without having played through the game yet.

Yet every time I point it out, some of you guys take it upon yourselves to pelt me with, "OMGLOL R U SIRIUS?" remarks.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Honestly, I can't believe you're suggesting we just ignore all the lies and crap of Oblivion and trust Bethesda not to do it again.

 

[Seymour the spore plant]

By and large, most mods are just that, modifications. People changing aspects of a game that they don't like to better suit their tastes.

I don't think that making mods to remove or add features that you want in a game is "doing the job of the development company.'

I believe most people here were talking about actual bugs and glitches, like crashing to the desktop. But even if we were to talk about features, it's worthy of discussion wether or not modding them in or out is doing the devs' job.

Let's take the level scaling, for an instance. It just might be the most reviled feature I have ever seen, and I'd say that it breaks the game in worse ways than any bug that doesn't freeze/crash or renders it unwinnable. Still, one could easily argue that the majority of people who bought Oblivion didn't mind, that internet forums are a very small sample of their target audience and thus it makes sense for them to implement something so utterly stupid in terms of design and whoever has a problem with it can mod it out. Same thing with the quest compass, and while I agree with your statement in most cases, in those I do see it as doing their job for them.

Game design might not be as exact a science as, say, maths, but it's ludicrous to think that there are no standards whatsoever to judge it. I know casual players are a huge market nowadays, but making design decisions based on the lowest denominator (which is what Bethesda seems to be doing) often yields some pretty

ugly results.