NFL 2009

[Sander]

Awww, you're so predictable Cimmie.

Peyton Manning: 31/45, 333 yds, 1TD 1 INT.
That's a good statline. And that wasn't a 'accumulate because you're behind' line as the Colts were ahead for most of the game. It's a good QB performance.
Steve Young commented that the pick was on Wayne and not Manning - Wayne is supposed to shield the corner on a comeback route like that. Still, PeyPey probably should've thrown it a bit more to the outside. But one throw does not a choker make, either in Favre's or Manning's case.

And yeah, Peyton's postseason record does speak for itself. 9-9, 2 Super Bowl appearances and 1 Super Bowl win.
Dan Marino would kill for that record.

In rewatching the game it looks like the Saints lined up Porter on Wayne a lot. Wayne didn't get much done. Where Jabari Greer is supposed to be the shutdown corner, Porter played that role yesterday.

 

[Brother None]

Bullshit! Manning is responsible for Garçon's crucial and ugly drop! And for the Colts not recovering the onside kick! Choker!

And yeah, Peyton's postseason record does speak for itself. 9-9, 2 Super Bowl appearances and 1 Super Bowl win.

And a Super Bowl MVP.
And a 87.5 overall postseason QBRat.

 

[Sander]

Also, on the pick 6 Will Smith threw an illegal blindside block on Manning, who was about ready to tackle Porter. It went uncalled.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Peyton Manning = Favre.

The guy lost five games the entire time he was in high school, and three of them were state championship games. That's a consistent track record of big-game choking.

That's exactly the kind of hit they made it for. You could also make the case that he came in late, at the back of the legs, and may have even launched. Pretty egregious.

I didn't notice it at the time it happened, but after I watched the replay...it was a real cheap shot. I think it could've been called a penalty even before the Brady/Palmer rule. The guy launched directly at Favre's knees.


Anyway, thank Odin that's over so I can finally start studying for the draft!

Wisconsin Badgers DE/OLB O'Brian Schofield was the defensive MVP of the East West Shrine game, then tore up his knee the first day of practice for the Senior Bowl. Rotten break. Some team is going to get him cheap, because he's a great player.

 

[Sander]

Peyton Manning = Favre.

The guy lost five games the entire time he was in high school, and three of them were state championship games. That's a consistent track record of big-game choking.

Maybe it has something to do with championships being against, y'know, better teams.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Well, as long as you're holding Manning to the same standard you did Favre two weeks ago, right?

Peyton Manning: 31/45, 333 yds, 1TD 1 INT.

Oh ho ho, don't sell Peyton short, he actually had 2 TDs last night. Only one was kind of to the other team though. It sort of counterproductive when you score for the other team. On the bright side, he fulfilled his childhood dream of throwing a big TD to his hometown Saints to win their 1st SB.

Bullshit! Manning is responsible for Garçon's crucial and ugly drop! And for the Colts not recovering the onside kick! Choker!

Yes, blame the rookie and the mid-season pickup who's greatest claim to fame is the skank he's shacked up. The same Pierre Garcon that drew an offenseive PI call in the opposing endzone to prevent another Manning INT? Looked to me like he was busting his ass and taking one for the team to cover up for his QB.
You're going to hold them to the same standard as the best QB ever?

And yeah, Peyton's postseason record does speak for itself. 9-9, 2 Super Bowl appearances and 1 Super Bowl win.

Wait, if we let his record speak for itself and you cite that, you do realize his postseason win percentage doesn't rank in the top 50? There are over 50 QBs with a better win PCT. You're making my point. It does speak for itself, just look for yourself, don't get upset about my obvious NEP bias. Not even top 50, for a 4xMVP? Greatest ever? That's piss poor my friend.

If we let it speak for itself, and you cite that, then basically we agree that his name doesn't belong in the same conversation as Montana, Brady, Bradshaw, or Bart Star. But you never said he was clutch, nobody would be that daft would they?

By citing that figure, you're throwing him in with other .500 Postseason QBs like Rex Grossman, Mark Brunnell, Mike Vick, Culpepper a whole slew of other mediocre postseason QBs.

Dan Marino would kill for that record.

Of course he would, only him and Favre have lost more playoff games than Manning. And we're applying the same standards to Favre that we do Mannning, because we wouldn't want to falsely accuse anyone of being a hypocrite now.
I watched Marino play a lot. He never had one single offensive weapon that came close to Reggie Wayne or Harrison or Edgerin James or Dallas Clark. Hell, I don't think he ever had a RB as good as Addai, and that's not saying much. One guy carried his team, the other has they entire team (and league rules) built and tailored to suit him.

And a Super Bowl MVP.

So doesn't Mark Rypien, ever heard of him? If Mark Rypien can do it, any QB can.

And a 87.5 overall postseason QBRat.

That, his win PCT, completion pct, TD to INT ratio are down how far from the regular season?

Look, nobody denies he's the fiercest regular season QB ever, so we're not holding him to the same standard that we are guys like Flacco and Sanchez are we?

He's had some very shaky playoff performances.
He had the chance last night to silence his critics forever.

And he blew it.



edit:

Also, on the pick 6 Will Smith threw an illegal blindside block on Manning, who was about ready to tackle Porter. It went uncalled.

Betcha Brady gets that call. He'll get his fine next week.

Maybe it has something to do with championships being against, y'know, better teams.

Yet somehow, certain QBs can actually raise their game in the postseason.
Oh, and the Saints weren't the best team in the NFC either.

 

[Sander]

Well, as long as you're holding Manning to the same standard you did Favre two weeks ago, right?

I am. I never decried Favre as killing his team, only said he made a bad throw at a bad time (which he did). Manning's throw was better (Wayne should've shielded the CB), it was still not a good throw. In neither game were they the reasons their team lost.

Oh ho ho, don't sell Peyton short, he actually had 2 TDs last night. Only one was kind of to the other team though. It sort of counterproductive when you score for the other team. On the bright side, he fulfilled his childhood dream of throwing a big TD to his hometown Saints to win their 1st SB.

Yes, blame the rookie and the mid-season pickup who's greatest claim to fame is the skank he's shacked up. The same Pierre Garcon that drew an offenseive PI call in the opposing endzone to prevent another Manning INT? Looked to me like he was busting his ass and taking one for the team to cover up for his QB.
You're going to hold them to the same standard as the best QB ever?

It would seem fair to hold every player accountable for their actions, regardless of their talent levels, yes.

By citing that figure, you're throwing him in with other .500 Postseason QBs like Rex Grossman, Mark Brunnell, Mike Vick, Culpepper a whole slew of other mediocre postseason QBs.

Players aren't postseason/non-postseason players, they're players.

Also, sample size. 18 games isn't a sample size worth anything. Especially when those 50 QBs with better records also include a shit-ton QBs who won about 3 games in the postseason.
You're seriously going to argue that someone like Brad Johnson or Jake Delhomme or Mark freaking Sanchez is a better QB than Manning because he has a better postseason winning percentage?

Also, I'll reiterate yet again something that you constantly (and I do mean constantly) ignore: if you look at seeding, Manning won exactly as many games as he was supposed to win. I expect he did similarly against the spread or any other measure of quality.

Of course he would, only him and Favre have lost more playoff games than Manning. And we're applying the same standards to Favre that we do Mannning, because we wouldn't want to falsely accuse anyone of being a hypocrite now.
I watched Marino play a lot. He never had one single offensive weapon that came close to Reggie Wayne or Harrison or Edgerin James or Dallas Clark. Hell, I don't think he ever had a RB as good as Addai, and that's not saying much. One guy carried his team, the other has they entire team (and league rules) built and tailored to suit him.

Manning carries his team. Without Manning, that team is worth shit-all and everyone knows it. I have no idea why you're pretending otherwise.

And look at Marino. He went through regular season games like a hot knife through butter (Manning regular season win%: .66, Marino regular season win%: .61). He cut through them exactly like Manning is doing now.
And yet his performance in the postseason is no better (worse, actually, because Manning does have a ring and Marino went 8-10 vs Manning's 9-9) than Manning's performance. But of course, in Marino's case it's all because he had inferior players - because those players that were good enough to dominate the regular season with were suddenly crap in the postseason, right?

Your bias shines through oh so bright.

Look, nobody denies he's the fiercest regular season QB ever, so we're not holding him to the same standard that we are guys like Flacco and Sanchez are we?

He's had some very shaky playoff performances.
He had the chance last night to silence his critics forever.

And he blew it.

So, a player gets his team to the Super Bowl, plays a good game and loses to a very, very good team, mostly through faults not his own.
And thus he proves he is a choker.
Oh, Cimmie, your bias is sometimes too ridiculous for words. I'd bet if Manning had won this game you'd still have said something like 'The Saints weren't really a great team so it doesn't count', like you try to pretend the Colts beating the Bears was meaningless, even though the Colts had to drudge through your Pats first.

That, his win PCT, completion pct, TD to INT ratio are down how far from the regular season?

Playoff stats: 62.9%, 28TD/19INT, 87.6 QBrate, 7.46YPA
Career stats: 64.8%, 366TD/181INT, 95.2 QBrate 7.7YPA

Yes, he's slightly worse in the playoffs. This makes sense when you figure out that you face much stiffer competition in the postseason. Why is this something you cannot seem to understand?

Yet somehow, certain QBs can actually raise their game in the postseason.

Yes. This means that some QBs are clutch and perform better in big games (either through luck or skill). The fact that some QBs get better in big games, does not suddenly mean that QBs who do not are chokers.

You want a postseason choker? Look at Nate Kaeding. Now that's choking.

Oh, and the Saints weren't the best team in the NFC either.

They weren't? So when it comes to Manning, winning is everything. But when it comes to the Saints, suddenly winning doesn't matter to determine greatness?
And you talk about hypocrisy.
The Saints beat the Vikings in a head-to-head match. Hence, the Saints are the better team.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

I said his record speaks for itself, you cited postseason wins, I put it in context his peers and suddenly you don't want his record to speak for itself.

9-9 is not good for a guy of Manning's profile and prestige. Especially in light of the fact that he is the league's best player ever on the league's winningest team of the last decade.
Six one-and-done playoff appearances, just nine playoff wins, two conference titles and a single Super Bowl championship.
AVG of 14 points from Manning led offense in those 9 losses.

*GAK*

Oh and he hit Porter right between the 2 and the 2 on that play, and he had Collie wide open. Bad read, bad throw, bad time for a pick six. Brutal.

Excuses abound for him don't they, though?

Also, I'll reiterate yet again something that you constantly (and I do mean constantly) ignore: if you look at seeding, Manning won exactly as many games as he was supposed to win. I expect he did similarly against the spread or any other measure of quality.

So at best he's "meh" in the postseason. Unremarkable? Would you take offense if I called him unremarkable? Lackluster? Underwhelming. Woiuld these be terms that you'd be OK associating Peyton Manning with?

Manning carries his team. Without Manning, that team is worth shit-all and everyone knows it. I have no idea why you're pretending otherwise.

His team lost last night, he threw a 7 point play the wrong way. A play that swings 14 points in a game decided by 14 points means you did something very, very bad towards the outcome of the game. Disastrous. Not the first time he's blown it in a big game now.

So, a player gets his team to the Super Bowl, plays a good game and loses to a very, very good team, mostly through faults not his own.
And thus he proves he is a choker.

I never used the C word. All I said is let his stats speak for themselves. They tell a story, it's not a happy ending.

Anyway, isn't there a law about forgetting #2 in the SB? Saints deserve a lot of credit, Payton went balls out, Brees was methodical and nigh-mistake free (very fitting that Sims called the game).
I really liked Vilma's game last night. Nice to see him flourish in the right system.
Payton totally outcoached Caldwell.
I think, I'm not even sure what Caldwell does. Manning calls the offense, Polian decides who plays when.
Caldwell is the George Sieffert to Dungy's Bill Walsh.


edit: I take back what I said about Manning, I was wrong :
Polian Blames Colts' Offensive Line, Special Teams for Super Bowl Loss I'm glad Polian cleared the air.

 

[UniversalWolf]

It's too bad Dan Marino never won a SB. That guy was really, really good.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Yeah, and he was such a kid the only time he ever did make it, he was probably thinking "oh well, won't be my last..."

I think the 80s-90s were an awesome era in the NFL, especially from a QB perspective. Marino, Elway, Montana, Young, Kelly, Aikman, Favre, Moon etc. Big Randall Cunningham fan myself. They played against some sick defenses in the 80s and 90s too. The top teams back then were stacked and could tee off, rules are so soft now in favor of QBs and WRs. You can't compare the #1 defense of the Jets this year to a #1 defense out of the 80s or 90s. The Jets or whoever really can't be great in relation to those teams that operated without hard salary caps and without the current rules that neuter pass rushers and DBs.

There's something to be said for the quality of the elite teams pre-parity era Vs. the flatter competitive curve of the parity era. It's great that teams can go from winner to contender so quickly now, but the talent is spread out more now and diluted. The elite teams 80s-90s were deep and potent like no team today can ever be.

Too many teams. Not enough good QBs. Too many rules to prop them up.

I think they should contract 2 teams (Jax & Buff). Go back to the old 3 division, 5 team conferences. 3 division winners and 3 wildcards go to the playoffs. There are some really weak conferences in the NFL now and some sloppy teams are getting gifts into the playoffs that shouldn't, over some better wildcards. 3 wildcards would ensure that more winning teams would advance over de facto winners of sloppy divisions.

They won't contract though, they want to expand. Overseas at some point supposedly.


edit: Hey Kharn, when are you guys going to pull the plug on the Deion Branch experiment? Just take the hit and cut him and his bloated salary. Brady needs him back here, now that his rep has taken a hit and we can get him back at reasonable cost.

For all intents and purposes I think Welker can be counted out of next year, bummer. We have a huge drop off after Moss, and even he is getting old and worn down.

We need some help getting this deal moving, what with Belichik becoming the coaching equivalent of Joe Stalin.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Big Randall Cunningham fan myself.

I never paid much attention to him when he was in Philly, but when he came back and played for the Vikings I was surprised by how good he was. I think he's underrated in general. Vince Young wishes he was Randall Cunningham.

In looking at the draft from last year, it seems like it was a great class of linebackers. Did Curry have a good year for Seattle? Orkapo was great, Matthews was great, Cushing was great. Laurinaitis appears to have had a good year, as did Maualuga. DeAndre Levy from Wisconsin also seems to have had a good year in Detroit, even though he's way under the radar.

BTW, Detroit is actually improving now that buffoon-Millen is gone. They're digging themselves out of the hole, at least. They're going to have a hard time screwing up their first pick this year, too.

 

[Brother None]

Curry looked solid to begin with, but then the bottom dropped out of the entire LB corpse when Tatupu got injured. With Hill as the most experienced guy in, Hawthorne and Curry looked seriously lost. Hawthorne looked awful in coverage, Curry tended to over-pursue like crazy.

He had the least impressive years of the 1st-rounders, to say the least, but that really does seem to be mostly due to the lack of a field marshal in the corps. He should improve when Tatupu returns, much like Cushing climbed on the shoulders of Ryans. It's how it works.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Big Randall Cunningham fan myself.

I never paid much attention to him when he was in Philly, but when he came back and played for the Vikings I was surprised by how good he was.

I was the opposite, loved watching that old Philly team, but he was dead to me after he blew out his knee and went to Minny. Then your freaking Packers had to steal away Reggie White and Keith Jackson, that was devastating. That was a nasty Buddy Ryan Eagles team, but they had 3 inter-division dynasties happening in that era against Gibbs' Skins, Johnson's Cowboys and Parcells' Giants. The NFC championship seemed like it was always NFC East winner Vs. 49ers back then, the winner of which inevitable blew out an inferior AFC team.
It is hard to watch guys like Vick and Young and not think of them as a poor man's Randall Cunningham. Guy was a better runner than most running backs, but he could throw the long ball too. Insane speed. Punted 90+ yds. There's a couple plays that just were mind boggling he pulled off.

Also, he's probably the sickest Tecmo Bowl QB ever.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Curry looked solid to begin with, but then the bottom dropped out of the entire LB corpse when Tatupu got injured.

Interesting. I wouldn't think it's anything to worry about long-term as long as he played his share and showed flashes of his potential.

I was the opposite, loved watching that old Philly team, but he was dead to me after he blew out his knee and went to Minny. Then your freaking Packers had to steal away Reggie White and Keith Jackson, that was devastating.

Hey, don't blame the Pack -- it was the will of God.

I remember when Holmgren used to run the 2 TE sets with Jackson and Chmura. That formation was fun to watch.

I think it was Moss's rookie season (1997?) when RC came out of retirement and the Vikings went 15-1 before being upset by Atlanta in the NFC Championship. That team was a scoring machine.

I see people comparing Suh to Reggie all the time. I wonder why no one considers moving him to DE. That's what I'd do for the Rams if it were up to me. With Suh and Long at ends, and Carriker and another hog at DT, they could have a powerful line that could make the whole unit better. They would have an identity as a team, at least.

 

[Sander]

Suh isn't fast and agile enough to be a 4-3 end I think. He'd probably do well as a 3-4 end, but the two-gap 4-3 DT position is ideal for him.

At this point I'm more interested in McCoy, as he fits a 1-gap system better. McCoy is more like Sapp, while Suh is more like Pat Williams.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Hey, don't blame the Pack -- it was the will of God.

Cliche answers that would've been acceptable:
-Mo' Money
-Shot at a Title
-Philly is a pit
Can't really fault him. He was a righteous dude. Reggie White had probably the best bull rush ever.

I think it was Moss's rookie season (1997?) when RC came out of retirement and the Vikings went 15-1 before being upset by Atlanta in the NFC Championship. That team was a scoring machine.

That was a shocker because after he blew out his knee and gone through numerous benchings he was out of the game for a year. He was done. IIRC that Vikes team was the most prolific offense ever until the Greatest Show on Turf surpassed them, then the Patriots surpassed both.

The Vikes are indeed a tragic franchise, that was a brutal NFCC game they lost to Atlanta. That was their year. Like last year. Losers.



Came across this juicy piece on the evolution of the passing game in the NFL:
http://coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2554_A_brief,_fact-filled_history_of_the_NFL_passing_game.html
It's got lots of good nuggets in there, well done.

edit: you read that, and then this here is your next step in the forced evolution of football into flag football:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/02/19/league-to-take-serious-look-at-reducing-hitting/
It's getting ridiculous how they're shoehorning these rules in to artificially weaken the game and turn it into an air show.
The roster exemption for concussions is a great idea, but the rest is just meddling and pussification.
I'm going to have to lift my self-imposed post-Whalers NHL exile and bail if the NFL keeps this up.
Ban the 3 point stance. Comical. Transparent. Faggotry.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Suh isn't fast and agile enough to be a 4-3 end I think.

That maybe true, but there are lots of people comparing him to Reggie White. If there's any legitimacy to the comparison, he should be able to play DE.

BTW, there's a rumor going around that the Bucs are trying to trade their 1st pick, their 3rd pick, and QB Josh Johnson to the Rams for the 1st overall pick, presumably to take Suh. Seems plausible. The Rams would presumably take Bradford or Clausen in that case.

That was a shocker because after he blew out his knee and gone through numerous benchings he was out of the game for a year. He was done.

I remember the story was he spent his year out of football installing drywall. That motivated him to give the NFL another shot.

The Vikes are indeed a tragic franchise, that was a brutal NFCC game they lost to Atlanta. That was their year. Like last year. Losers.

That's why their fans behave like the one frat brother who never gets laid. Irritable.

 

[Sander]

That maybe true, but there are lots of people comparing him to Reggie White. If there's any legitimacy to the comparison, he should be able to play DE.

Yeah, sure. I certainly wouldn't compare him to Reggie White, though. I've been hearing more comparisons to Pat Williams, Kevin Williams and Jay Ratliff, I don't I've heard Reggie mentioned once. Must be the Pack influence.

BTW, there's a rumor going around that the Bucs are trying to trade their 1st pick, their 3rd pick, and QB Josh Johnson to the Rams for the 1st overall pick, presumably to take Suh. Seems plausible. The Rams would presumably take Bradford or Clausen in that case.

It's a rumour started by one guy in a single column, for as far as I know the one guy has no real credibility and these rumours pop up frequently.

That said, if there is any truth to the rumour, it would have to be a really low price for the Bucs to take the bait. Because the only reason the Rams would want to trade down is if they want to pick a QB - but if they want to pick a QB, the Bucs can just turn the trade down, watch the Rams pick a QB and then have McCoy fall into their laps. McCoy also fits the 4-3 1-gap scheme (similar to Tampa 2, but not entirely) they're currently using(since firing Jim Bates) better than Suh does.

Then again, a 3rd rounder and career backup Josh Johnson? That's a pretty low price.

I'm going to have to lift my self-imposed post-Whalers NHL exile and bail if the NFL keeps this up.
Ban the 3 point stance. Comical. Transparent. Faggotry.

That's never going to fly, though. It's probably just a publicity ploy to make more moderate changes seem more palatable.

 

[Brother None]

Pat Williams, Kevin Williams

Both of them? They're not that similar, Pat being a one-tech and Kevin a three-tech. Very different body types and skillsets, too.

Curry looked solid to begin with, but then the bottom dropped out of the entire LB corpse when Tatupu got injured.

Interesting. I wouldn't think it's anything to worry about long-term as long as he played his share and showed flashes of his potential.

Yip, no real concerns. He was less NFL-ready than I was lead to believe but the raw skills are certainly there.

 

[Sander]

Both of them? They're not that similar, Pat being a one-tech and Kevin a three-tech. Very different body types and skillsets, too.

I know. I've still seen comparisons to both of them, though Kevin Williams is probably a much better comparison given that Suh relies a lot on his upper-body strength. Still, Suh could play both 1- and 3-tech pretty easily.

Yip, no real concerns. He was less NFL-ready than I was lead to believe but the raw skills are certainly there.

I wonder what your defense will look like when not every starter is injured.