NFL - The Thread, '08.

TwinkieGorilla said:
don't be a eurodick. he was FUN to watch. it's no accident that people fell in love with the guy.

Dude. Not denying that. Excepting the whole drama queen act I LOVE Favre. His rocket arm has always amused me to no end, and some of the touchdown throws he made had me jumping on my couch whooping.

But that's no reason to call him a top 5 GOAT. Just being reasonable here, sorry if rationality is a buzzkill or shit.

TwinkieGorilla said:
Favre was seen as a sort of messiah in Wisconsin.

I know. And that skews the analysis. People love him too much or hate him too much especially because of that status. It's a shame, because he's great in reality, and it'd only be to his benefit if he were judged fairly from day 1, rather than having to go through the kickback of anti-hype.
 
Brother None said:
[q Favre is one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time, like, top 10, and a justified first-ballot HoFer. But more than that? Heck no.
This is true, if not for a Desmond Howard kick return he might very well be in the same boat as Marino. The ring goes far in validating him as more than just aggregate numbers though.

And again he did it outside, in the most adverse conditions in the NFL, not bad for a Mississippi boy.
Would like to see Manning's numbers if he played in a cold weather city. Just look at his playoff numbers in Foxboro. :ugly: Choooo-ker
 
Cimmerian Nights said:
And again he did it outside, in the most adverse conditions in the NFL, not bad for a Mississippi boy.
Would like to see Manning's numbers if he played in a cold weather city. Just look at his playoff numbers in Foxboro. :ugly: Choooo-ker

Oh, fer Frith's stake, stop simplifying. Yes, Manning's indoor numbers show a QB rating of 100.4, 201 TDs and 82 INTs (97 games), but his outdoor numbers are a QBrat of 88.1, 132 TDs, 83 INTs (79 games). In cold conditions he has a QBRat of 86.9, 14 TDs, 10 INTs (10 games), windy conditions 83.1, 35-26. Yes, his stats are worse outdoor, as they are for everyone, but his stats outdoors are still good. Not great, but good. Heck, his outdoor numbers are kinda similar to Brett's career numbers :P

And like I just said, most of the Colts' postseason choking can be attributed to the defense collapsing, not Manning. Last year's 28-24 loss? Manning passed for 402 yards with a QBRat of 97.7. Three years ago, 18-21 to Pittsburgh? QBRat 90.9, 290 yards, 1 TD. He did have a massive choking spree starting with the Jets in 2002 and followed by the Pats in 2003 and 2004, but blaming all of the Colts' post-season woes on Manning is just bleh.

You know, a euroweenie like me can only shake my head despondently at how much you guys let your heart make your football calls for you. People denying LDT is great because they hate him. Pretending Manning actually sucks because he annoys them. 's not how analysis works, guys.
 
Brother None said:
Twinks is a fanatic cheesehead, Sander, don't expect any rational remarks on Favre from him. He probably grew up masturbating to Favre's stubble.
Packers fans are called Cheeseheads?
That's so awesome.

Brother None said:
You know, a euroweenie like me can only shake my head despondently at how much you guys let your heart make your football calls for you.
So, you still supporting that wreck of a club called Feyenoord, or did you give up on it and go to NEC?
 
Sander said:
Packers fans are called Cheeseheads?
That's so awesome.

cheesehead.jpg


Sander said:
So, you still supporting that wreck of a club called Feyenoord, or did you give up on it and go to NEC?

My heart belongs to both Feyenoord and NEC, because those are tied to my two hometowns.

I'm not often irrational about it, except right after a match. For instance, Feyenoord stunk the big one versus Ajax (though Ajax also stunk, just slightly less). Heck, Feyenoord stinks the big one all season and has only been going downwards in quality since Verbeek left, the only reason I wasn't pissed about it was "hey, at least we're not panicking and turning to haphazard management again", and then THAT'S WHAT WE DID.

Can't deny my heart, tho'. It is what it is. Only cowards abandon teams on the down.
 
Brother None said:
Aha, I'd almost become a Packers fan because of that.

But nah, I have a soft spot for the Giants.
Brother None said:
My heart belongs to both Feyenoord and NEC, because those are tied to my two hometowns.

I'm not often irrational about it, except right after a match. For instance, Feyenoord stunk the big one versus Ajax (though Ajax also stunk, just slightly less). Heck, Feyenoord stinks the big one all season and has only been going downwards in quality since Verbeek left, the only reason I wasn't pissed about it was "hey, at least we're not panicking and turning to haphazard management again", and then THAT'S WHAT WE DID.

Can't deny my heart, tho'. It is what it is. Only cowards abandon teams on the down.
Living in Rotterdam and supporting Feyenoord because of it.
You got shafted twice there.
 
Giants suck the big one.

And I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Rotterdam is a great city to live in. Even in my darkest hour I can always fall back on "at least I don't live in that hellhole Amsterdam".
Fuck I hate Amsterdam.

Nor would I call being a fan of Feyenoord being shafted. It's a great club to be a supporter of. If you measure worth of support purely by your club's success, then you're not a real fan. Then again, you're PSV "fan", that applies to you lot as a rule.
 
Brother None said:
Giants suck the big one.
Eli isn't the best QB around, Burress is a fucking retard for getting arrested for illegal gun possession (or whatever) because he shot himself in the leg in a fucking nightclub, they don't have the greatest team or the greatest plays, but I like the Giants nonetheless.

Brother None said:
And I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Rotterdam is a great city to live in. Even in my darkest hour I can always fall back on "at least I don't live in that hellhole Amsterdam".
Fuck I hate Amsterdam.
Wait, your number one fallback for defending living in Rotterdam 'at least it's not Amsterdam'?
Man, it must really suck to live in Rotterdam.

Brother None said:
Nor would I call being a fan of Feyenoord being shafted. It's a great club to be a supporter of.
Is it? I mean, aside from the nabs about being a failure of a club even though every year the past few years it's been 'Wow bunch of great players/coaches/whatever coming to town, this ought to be great!' the club and the fans get consistently shafted by the management, by their moron co-'fans' who think it's a good idea to try to burn Nancy and get Feyenoord excluded from European football, and by players that can do nothing but squabble amongst themselves and with the coach and put in atrocious performances.

Then again, you do have this:
feyenoord.jpg

Brother None said:
If you measure worth of support purely by your club's success, then you're not a real fan. Then again, you're PSV "fan", that applies to you lot as a rule.
Does it? I've supported PSV through this season's 'mess' as well.
 
Sander said:
Eli isn't the best QB around, Burress is a fucking retard for getting arrested for illegal gun possession (or whatever) because he shot himself in the leg in a fucking nightclub, they don't have the greatest team or the greatest plays, but I like the Giants nonetheless.

No. The franchise sucks the big one. Only assholes support NFC East teams.

Sander said:
Wait, your number one fallback for defending living in Rotterdam 'at least it's not Amsterdam'?
Man, it must really suck to live in Rotterdam.

Only in my darkest hour. I love Rotterdam, can't imagine living anywhere else.

Sander said:
I mean, aside from the nabs about being a failure of a club even though every year the past few years it's been 'Wow bunch of great players/coaches/whatever coming to town, this ought to be great!' the club and the fans get consistently shafted by the management, by their moron co-'fans' who think it's a good idea to try to burn Nancy and get Feyenoord excluded from European football, and by players that can do nothing but squabble amongst themselves and with the coach and put in atrocious performances.

Eh. The hooligans have always been a pain, but Feyenoord has not been nearly as badly managed as some people hold it. It could've done better the past few years but part of the problem is the high-strung expectations that I'm just not a part of. If you expect Feyenoord to win the UEFA cup or league championship every year then yeah, sucks to be you, but I'm not that kind of fan.

The panic-mode management has always bugged the hell out of me, tho'. But that's about it.

Sander said:
Does it? I've supported PSV through this season's 'mess' as well.

Good for you. But as a PSV fan you are raised on a pattern of success. It's not really a fair "through thick and thin" proposition if it's been pretty thick pretty consistently. One down season doesn't change that.
 
Brother None said:
No. The franchise sucks the big one. Only assholes support NFC East teams.
Apparently, I'm an asshole then.

Dunno, maybe another team'll grip me as I start following the NFL more consistently, but so far I only got that with the Giants. And the Cardinals for one game, but that's more because I had money riding on the Superbowl.

Then again, Artie Lange has a love/hate relationship with the Giants too:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLybVRBtkxU[/youtube]

Brother None said:
Eh. The hooligans have always been a pain, but Feyenoord has not been nearly as badly managed as some people hold it. It could've done better the past few years but part of the problem is the high-strung expectations that I'm just not a part of. If you expect Feyenoord to win the UEFA cup or league championship every year then yeah, sucks to be you, but I'm not that kind of fan.
I don't think anyone really expects them to win something every year, but y'know, top 5 finishes would be expected at the very least. They haven't done that the past 2 years, and won't this year either unless some miracle happens. Hell, it's quite possible that Sparta finishes ahead of them.

Brother None said:
Good for you. But as a PSV fan you are raised on a pattern of success. It's not really a fair "through thick and thin" proposition if it's been pretty thick pretty consistently. One down season doesn't change that.
True, but it doesn't make the fans simply successupporters either. I know plenty of PSV fans, and they'll support the club no matter what happens. That they don't need to doesn't change that.

I'm not one of the real supporters, though, never will be. I never go to visit matches, don't have any PSV apparel etc. I just support them and root for them. But I won't stop rooting for them just because they're not doing too well. That's Ajax folk.
 
Brother None said:
You know, a euroweenie like me can only shake my head despondently at how much you guys let your heart make your football calls for you. People denying LDT is great because they hate him. Pretending Manning actually sucks because he annoys them. 's not how analysis works, guys.
Define great.
Clutch?
Gritty?
Relentless?
Tough?
Those aren't words I'd use to describe Manning or LaDanian (French for The Danian) especailly come playoff time. Those are words I'd use in describing a guy like Favre though. Who said Manning sucks, he may very well go down as the greatest thrower in history. Come December when the snow is falling and the pressure is on, you can't tell me Manning would be your first choice of QBs. He's a choker that got lucky once, that doesn't impress me, even Trent Dilfer has a ring.
And if you're just going with pure numbers and not the intangibles, then you invite guys like Fran Tarkenton into the equation, there's more to it than just numbers.

I got two words for Payton Manning, OK?
Ty fuckin' Law.
How many endorsements do you have now goober?
/Denis Leary rant


And like I just said, most of the Colts' postseason choking can be attributed to the defense collapsing, not Manning. Last year's 28-24 loss? Manning passed for 402 yards with a QBRat of 97.7. Three years ago, 18-21 to Pittsburgh? QBRat 90.9, 290 yards, 1 TD. He did have a massive choking spree starting with the Jets in 2002 and followed by the Pats in 2003 and 2004, but blaming all of the Colts' post-season woes on Manning is just bleh.
The Colts built themselves to be a high-powered, fast scoring offensive machine. They get a quick lead, they force the opposition to abandon the run, and then their pass rushing ends cause havok.
If your offense can only score 24 points with this kind of approach - you lose. Score more or lose.
Live by the sword, die by the sword. Or bitch and moan to the competition comitte to get the rules changed - that's not what great football players do my friend. That's chikenshit.
The rules of the game were changed to benefit Manning and his precious numbers.

Besides, look at Manning's career a lot of garbage numbers there in blowouts.
 
Cimmerian Nights said:
Define great.
Clutch?
Gritty?
Relentless?
Tough?
Those aren't words I'd use to describe Manning or LaDanian (French for The Danian) especailly come playoff time. Those are words I'd use in describing a guy like Favre though. Who said Manning sucks, he may very well go down as the greatest thrower in history. Come December when the snow is falling and the pressure is on, you can't tell me Manning would be your first choice of QBs. He's a choker that got lucky once, that doesn't impress me, even Trent Dilfer has a ring.
So how is Favre not a choker who got lucky once? Favre's done a bit better than Manning in the postseason, but not by much.
 
Sander said:
So how is Favre not a choker who got lucky once? Favre's done a bit better than Manning in the postseason, but not by much.
Haven't you heard, Brett Favre isn't a choker, when he makes bad decisions, it's because he's a "gunslinger".

edit:
Yeah, that's pretty much what I said before anyway:
Cimmerian Nights said:
if not for a Desmond Howard kick return he might very well be in the same boat as Marino.
But being a NE fan I'm kind of biased in that regard.

Allow me to adopt a Rumsfeldian rhetorical device.

Is Favre a hall of famer? Yes, 1st ballot.
Is he top 5 all time? Not quite - too erratic, too much of a cowboy.
Will Manning finish with better numbers? Probably.
Does that make Manning a better player in the crunch? No
Do aggregate stats alone make a player better than another? Not always - look at all the better runners behind Eric Dickerson on the all time rushing list. Some of the best NFL RBs had shortened careers - Jim Brown, Earl Campbell, Barry Sanders, Terrel Davis, Bo Jackson. That Eric Dickerson played longer and never got hurt doesn't make him better by any means
Is Payton Manning a spineless puke who bitched and cried to get the rules changed in his favor? Guilty as charged.
 
Heh. I haven't read this thread in a couple weeks. I apologize for my role in transforming it into a Favre thread. :D

Still, you see the aura the guy has, whether you love him or don't love him. Can we agree we're a bit tired of talking about him? Give it five years, and we can revisit the subject.

Anyway, on to my real purpose for posting here:

TO signs with BUFFALO? :shock: That's the most bizzare thing I've seen in a long time. To quote a poster on my favorite fantasy football site, "What could go wrong?"

:mrgreen:
 
Buffalo needed an athletic receiver to complement Lee Evans. I actually figured they'd be going for Coles or Holt, but TO it is. At least they got him on the cheap, but you know he's going to fuck up their season.

People really do easily miss how important team dynamics are on top of pure talent. Nobody will ever win a Superbowl with someone like TO on their team, no way. Though the whole short dosage thing helps the Bills.

Other lines from the off-season I liked:

Haynesworth 100 million, 41 guaranteed, can make 31 million in his first 13 months on the job. Nice, dude, nice. Not necessarily good for the 'Skins, tho'. Both Haynesworth and the resigned Hall have history for major personality problems and being locker room issues. Don't be surprised if one of 'em blows up during the season.

Jason Taylor walking because of a workout dispute. As Cooley points out, Jason was being asked to do exercises at nearly 130,000 USD a day of exercising...I mean what?

Housh to Seahawks. Housh isn't great, and with a first-year coach one shouldn't put too much pressure on the 'Hawks, but I already figured that in avoiding injuries the Hawks would improve, now they'll just improve further.
Also, leaving the Bengals with just Ocho Stanko is hilarious after his jibing last off-season. Though with picking up Coles, they might actually have got the better end of the deal.

Ray Lewis goes back to Baltimore, paws drooping. Bwahahaah. Expect the Ravens to regress somewhat sans Scott and Leonhard.

Speaking of which, I'm pretty impressed by the Jets. I don't like the franchise much, but rebuilding after their failed Favre-gamble through the defense with Scott, Leonhard and Sheppard is most likely the best thing they can do. Don't expect them to recover overnight, but nice moves.

And of course, the Patriots are making those small moves that seem insignificant but will end up being brilliant. I'm not sure anyone will ever get Cassel + Vrabel for a 2nd-rounder (though it does give the Pats something like 5 first-day picks, which is awesome), though one should remember Cassel has been a non-started for most of his career and threw against inferior Ds most of last year, so he doesn't have the value some casual fans would ascribe to him.
Signing Fred Taylor is typically the kind of subtle move that is undervalued by most. The Pats have a serious deficit at their running game which a rotation with Taylor in the mix will really shore up. They should just drop the bust Laurence Maroney, Faulk, Morris and Taylor combine for a real good running game, good enough that if they draft efficiently for D players this year, they'll be in the mix for the super bowl again, easy.
 
Maphusio said:
BN - t.j houshmanzada!

Dude I'm not actually going to try to spell Houshmandjeblagrappablak, but YAY HOUSH.

SEAHAWKS #1

I wonder who we'll draft. I'm kind of hoping for Curry or one of the draft's solid OTs (take your pick really). One could say they should wait to see who from the pool of Raji, Curry or Smith falls to #4 and just be happy you have 'em, since any of those positions can help. Drafting Crabtree which many are still suggesting...can't think of it as a good idea. I'd rather see them trade down.

Man, I wish that big CB kid had declared this year. What was his name again?
 
T.O. goin to Buffalo


interesting.


Also, be on the lookout for whichever RB gets the starting job in Denver to be a good fantasy back. The Broncos have signed Correll Buckhalter, LaMont Jordan, and JJ Arrington over the last few weeks.
 
Holly shit T.O. is jumping ship huh? Ohhhh I wonder how much drama he will bring to the table over there.
 
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