NFL - The Thread, '08.

[Cimmerian Nights]

It's not just integration, it's also the evolution of the NFL play and p[layers since that era.
The thing with Babe Ruth is, his was a power game. He hit home runs. He could still hit home runs today. Probably moreso because they'd wean him off the booze, stogies and whores the fat bastard.

The NFL teams prior to the 50s couldn't beat a good SEC team today. The players are so much faster, stronger and the game is so much more complex and swift. Linemen are small now if they aren't 300+lbs, linebackers if they aren't 245. We just saw a 9-7 team with three 1,000 yard receivers put up 375 yards on the #1 defense in the league. Compare that to the game they played in the 30s?
It wasn't until the NFL merger that the forward pass took even prominence over "10 yards a cloud of dust". Guys of that era were semi-pro at best, and the sport of football was in it's infancy developmentally.
Contemporary players like Barry Sanders would stomp all over those old teams. Think of the damage USC would do to one of those teams from the 30s.

Anyway, all baseball/football comparisons should end with George Carlin:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om_yq4L3M_I[/youtube]



And I don't like the Steelers one bit, but this recent "their dynasty was in the steroid era" smacks of haterism. It's sour grapes. I'm pretty sure they juiced as much as anyone else, just ask Lyle Alzado... I highly doubt guys like Bradshaw, Lambert, Stallworth, Bleier and Swan were juicing based on their size anyway. And it's like juicing ever stopped in the NFL, that tool Merriman got busted for juicing and went to the pro-bowl the same year. Way to crack down on 'roids.

Besides GB fans want to talk about roids...

 

[UniversalWolf]

It's not just integration, it's also the evolution of the NFL play and p[layers since that era.

So you're saying baseball players from the 1930s would still be competative today, but football players wouldn't, and for that reason baseball records from the 1930s should be counted but football records shouldn't be counted? Interesting point of view. Where do you draw the line?

Would the Steelers Superbowl teams of the seventies get pummeled by todays teams? Players were smaller in the 1970s that they are now.

Linemen are small now if they aren't 300+lbs, linebackers if they aren't 245.

Like I said, the steroid era. Interestingly, Outside the Lines on ESPN did a show last weekend about the history of steroids in the NFL. Apparently the Chargers started it all in the mid 1970s.

Guys of that era were semi-pro at best

Maybe, but all of them on every team were "semi-pro at best" so the playing field was level at the time. What if players fifty years from now are vastly bigger and faster than players now? Will that invalidate all the records being set now because today's players aren't competative with players of the future?

Contemporary players like Barry Sanders would stomp all over those old teams.

That's a bad example. There's not much dispute over the fact that Barry is the greatest running back of all time. He would stomp all over the teams of that era, but he stomped all over teams of his own era and he would stomp all over teams today. Use Lawrence Maroney instead.

And I don't like the Steelers one bit, but this recent "their dynasty was in the steroid era" smacks of haterism. It's sour grapes.

It's not haterism. It didn't come out of nowhere. You gave a reason why Green Bay's records aren't valid, so I gave a reason why Pittsburgh's aren't valid. In fact I consider both to be valid.

Anyway, if I made a list of my top ten most hated NFL teams, the Steelers wouldn't even be on the list, I don't think. Dallas and Chicago would be 1 and 2. The Vikings might make the list, but I pity them more than hate them. I like Ben. I like Polamolu. Beyond that I'm indifferent about the Steelers.

Besides GB fans want to talk about roids...

The second worst draft pick of all time, after only Ryan Leaf. Keep in mind who the Packers could have taken with that pick: Barry Sanders. Or even Troy Aikman.

And it's like juicing ever stopped in the NFL, that tool Merriman got busted for juicing and went to the pro-bowl the same year.

Kind of like The Hoodie got busted for cheating and still won Coach of the Year?

 

[Brother None]

So you're saying baseball players from the 1930s would still be competative today, but football players wouldn't, and for that reason baseball records from the 1930s should be counted but football records shouldn't be counted? Interesting point of view. Where do you draw the line?

Would the Steelers Superbowl teams of the seventies get pummeled by todays teams? Players were smaller in the 1970s that they are now

Of course the point that comparing directly in different eras is impossible is valid. To some extent this applies to baseball as well, tho' I'm not familiar enough with the sport to say.

"Best teams of all time" lists are bullshit. As are "top 100 best players of all time". Because direct comparison is stupid, and that goes for teams as well.
At the same time, all champion means is "best of this year". It's not supposed to mean more or less, so obviously comparing it to other years is pointless. Still, championships are there to keep, and no amount of "whitey!" or "steroids!" will change that you were relatively the best.

The second worst draft pick of all time, after only Ryan Leaf. Keep in mind who the Packers could have taken with that pick: Barry Sanders. Or even Troy Aikman.

Sanders yes. Troy Aikman got taken off the board as the first overall, dude.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

I'm not saying GBs records are invalid. Of course they are valid. I just don't think they hold much if any weight. And I'm not targeting GB, I'm talking everyone from that era. The game they played back then resembles rugby more the post-Bill Walsh NFL.

So you're saying baseball players from the 1930s would still be competative today, but football players wouldn't, and for that reason baseball records from the 1930s should be counted but football records shouldn't be counted? Interesting point of view. Where do you draw the line?

5:25PM August 5th, 1958.
j/k
It's not a clear demarcation but a series of events that compounded to differentiate the game of yesteryear from the modern game.
1.Integration of black talent - when was the last time a white HB made the Pro-bowl or led the league in rushing? The NFL without black dudes is like a bar without hard liquor.
2.The rise of the forward pass as a legitmate way to run an offense. This didn't happen overnight and is still evolving. 3.Steroids. Sure, I'll give you that.
4."Professionalism". Those dudes in the 30s had day jobs. They were semi-pro. Larry Fitzgerald plays and trains and eats and sleeps football. When he orders food in a restaurant he needs to consider football.
Bobby Lane won old NFL championships drunk.

Sure they were tough, they wore leather helmets and played both ways. They toiled and bled for peanuts (so douchebags like TO could cash in). I played football, I repect that.
But the NFL of the 1930s is a different animal alltogether. Do we consider AFL championships? USFL? Canadian? Arena? World League?

XFL?


Bud Bowl?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2K_XCklwc4&feature=related[/youtube]

 

[UniversalWolf]

Sanders yes. Troy Aikman got taken off the board as the first overall, dude.

I stand corrected, Sir!

BTW, here's the 89 draft from NFL.com.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=1989&round=round1

The next three picks after Mandarich: Barry Sanders, Derrick Thomas, Deion Sanders.

If I remember correctly, Mandarich ended up being a passable backup tackle for the Colts.

I'm not saying GBs records are invalid. Of course they are valid. I just don't think they hold much if any weight.

Ha!

 

[Brother None]

So hey guys, Favre retired again. Expect drama. Expect the GB staff to laugh at the NYJ fools that took him on. He came, he fizzled, he went, another bad transfer of a character issue player that should not have happened (like, y'know, the Bwoys taking on Pacman, or whoever picks up Vick picking up Vick)

It'll be fun to see the Jets scramble for a valid QB in the offseason. Their "built-to-win-now" team still lacks the cogs to really be a finisher, and Favre fell short. Sucks to be them.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

#1 in jersey sales and who knows how many millions for PSLs sold in their new stadium. Jets ownership loved him and wanted him back. This PSL scam they're pulling on NYC teams is bullshit. The economy sucks, they need to sell tickets before it opens, Favre is the draw. He served his purpose.
Who cares if he doesn't know what color his own team's jersey is, he made the Jets money, and at the end of the day, ownership considers him an extraordinary success.

But yeah, what a drama queen. I hope he didn't cry this time.

Can you believe GB offered him $25M not to play? and he turned it down to play for the J-E-T-S?

At least when Joe Montana got run out of San Fran he took the Chiefs to a championship game. Favre took a poop on his legacy, which once the romance of it wears off, will not stand up to contemporaries like Elway, Aikman, Montana, or Brady.
Career interceptions?
Playoff record?
Compare them.

 

[Brother None]

#1 in jersey sales and who knows how many millions for PSLs sold in their new stadium. Jets ownership loved him and wanted him back. This PSL scam they're pulling on NYC teams is bullshit. The economy sucks, they need to sell tickets before it opens, Favre is the draw. He served his purpose.
Who cares if he doesn't know what color his own team's jersey is, he made the Jets money, and at the end of the day, ownership considers him an extraordinary success.

Sure, if you want to take that angle. I'm a sports fan, tho', not a money fan, I'm not interested in how much money they made.

Besides, even money-wise it's a bad investment long-term. They slaughtered their own salary cap and have now crippled a team that with a good QB might be in the playoffs next year into a team that should forget about any hopes for reaching the playoffs for years to be. That does hurt popularity, and that in turn hurts sales.

Favre took a poop on his legacy, which once the romance of it wears off, will not stand up to contemporaries like Elway, Aikman, Montana, or Brady.

Well, the career INT record is his to keep. Career TD will be broken by Manning easy, but INT? That'll have Favre's name on it for years to come. Still, Blanda got in with a 236-277 TD-INT record, so that should be no stoppin' it.

Yes, Favre is pooping all over his own legacy. He has been for years. He's still a HoF, but nobody should have ever considered him the best of his generation, even before this embarrassment.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

I agree with you about the Jets, and believe me, I live in the shadow of NYC, i get deluged by all the newsprint, radio and TV. Nobody here cares, he's small potatoes in the NYC sports world and his contribution to it is nil. Sports fans here are climbing the walls about a metrosexual ball player who failed a piss test 3 years ago, in a sport that's not even in spring training yet. That news eclipses his retirement.
Ownership is the only group that misses Favre and that was always for financial reasons.

That does hurt popularity, and that in turn hurts sales.

Demand for sports in NYC is pretty inelastic. As evidenced by all the teams success in selling PSLs ostensibly to finance all these new stadiums for Yankees, Mets, and Giants/Jets. People are actually willing to pay thousands of dollars just for the right to spend thousands more on actual tickets.

In a recession.

For the Jets.

Still, Blanda got in with a 236-277 TD-INT record, so that should be no stoppin' it.

Yes, Favre is pooping all over his own legacy. He has been for years. He's still a HoF, but nobody should have ever considered him the best of his generation, even before this embarrassment.

Favre is a shoo-in 1st round HOFer. Blanda is different though because he did more than just QB, and was the leagues all time leading scorer for a long time.
The most embarassing thing was that lay down for Strahan to break the sack record. That was chickenshit.




edit:

BTW, here's the 89 draft from NFL.com.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=1989&round=round1

Talk about dynasty building look at all these guys that Dallas drafted that year:
1 Troy Aikman
29 Steve Wisniewski
39 Daryl Johnston
57 Mark Stepnoski
85 Tony Tolbert
113 Keith Jennings

The draft will make or break you for years to come, especially now with salary cap and parity.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Yes, Favre is pooping all over his own legacy. He has been for years. He's still a HoF, but nobody should have ever considered him the best of his generation, even before this embarrassment.

Naw, this is just unrealistic. Favre is top-5 GOAT. The adulation of the sports media isn't an accurate assessment of his true worth, and neither is the anti-Favre backlash.

As a Packer fan who agreed with the trade from the get go (actually I thought he should've taken the money and stayed retired), I don't really blame him for doing anything he had to do to keep playing. If I were in his position, the one thing I would never want to have happen is to wake up five years from now when it's too late, and think about how I could've played one more year. I think he knows he's played to the bitter end now. In ten years no one will even remember he was a Jet, just like no one remembers Montana as a Chief.

I often see people saying Manning's going to break Favre's records. If so, good for him, but last time I checked, Peyton would have to maintain his career pace for another five or six years to do it. Before chickens hatch they're just eggs.

Demand for sports in NYC is pretty inelastic. As evidenced by all the teams success in selling PSLs ostensibly to finance all these new stadiums for Yankees, Mets, and Giants/Jets. People are actually willing to pay thousands of dollars just for the right to spend thousands more on actual tickets.

I would never pay for a PSL. What a freakin' scam.

P.S. - Aren't we going to need a new NFL thread for 2009 one of these days?

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

bahahaha, that Carlin clip was lulzeriffic.

 

[Brother None]

Naw, this is just unrealistic. Favre is top-5 GOAT. The adulation of the sports media isn't an accurate assessment of his true worth, and neither is the anti-Favre backlash.

I'm not a part of the adulation or the backlash, I think both are stupid. Believe me, I'm a lot more neutral than you are as a Packer fan, and I feel fairly safe in saying that Favre has not done enough on the field to be considered the best of his generation, let alone in a shortlist of best of all time. His popularity is undeniable, and it's skewed people's visions of him to the negative and positive, the reality is dead down the middle. You're square in adulation cam, anyone with a realistic view knows Favre is nowhere near top 5 greats of all time.

As a Packer fan who agreed with the trade from the get go (actually I thought he should've taken the money and stayed retired), I don't really blame him for doing anything he had to do to keep playing. If I were in his position, the one thing I would never want to have happen is to wake up five years from now when it's too late, and think about how I could've played one more year. I think he knows he's played to the bitter end now. In ten years no one will even remember he was a Jet, just like no one remembers Montana as a Chief.

You actually think he's done now?

Oh please. The problem was never whether or not he had a right to keep playing, it's his bullshit "oh no I don't oh yes I do" want shit.

I often see people saying Manning's going to break Favre's records. If so, good for him, but last time I checked, Peyton would have to maintain his career pace for another five or six years to do it. Before chickens hatch they're just eggs.

You say that as if it's unlikely. Peyton is the biggest iron man since Favre, nothing's stopping him.
11 years into his career as a starter, Peyton's thrown for 45628 yards, 333 TDs and 165 INTs.
The same number of years in, Favre had 42285, 314, 188 in. And he was two years older at that point. Peyton is easily a full season ahead and, well, better.
Like I said, nobody is taking the INT record away from Favre, but if you think Peyton is not taking every other record you're just deluding yourself. Nothing short of a full career meltdown or major injury will stop him.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

i'm going to have to agree that Favre's on-the-field personality made his greatness seem greater in peoples' eyes, minds and hearts. though i am sitting here thinking "well, why shouldn't it?" i mean, people don't just watch the game for the stats. they want to see the kind of ridiculous shit Favre pulled because it's entertaining as hell...and most of us watch sports because it's entertainment. in that respect, coupled with the fact that he was a very excellent player with great stats, i say he DOES deserve the recognition and the place on the short-list.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

i'm going to have to agree that Favre's on-the-field personality made his greatness seem greater in peoples' eyes, minds and hearts. though i am sitting here thinking "well, why shouldn't it?" i mean, people don't just watch the game for the stats.

Right on. And speaking of Manning, the ultimate stat whore and choke artist extraordinaire. Sure, he may be the best QB ever on paper . Pussified indoor numbers. Come December he wilts like a delicate flower. Gets knocked out of the 1st round and then throws his O-line under the bus. Chincy. How many times have the Colts won 12+ games and lost in the 1st round under Manning? That's atrocious. Goober Manning.
Brett Favre lays it all out, win or lose. And he loves to play football, and it's enjoyable to watch someone like that.


I'm just pissed the he fucked up the whole AFC east sending Pennington to Miami - who wouldn't have won the division without him.

 

[UniversalWolf]

...anyone with a realistic view knows Favre is nowhere near top 5 greats of all time.

Not true at all. Anyone with a realistic view knows he is top-5 GOAT. If you check out the stats, Favre holds all sorts of passing records beyond just attempts, completions, TDs, consecutive starts at QB, INTs, and all the other popularly known ones. For example, he holds the record for most seasons with at least 3000 yards passing at 17 (and that's consecutive). He's also tied for first in several others categories, like most MVPs (tied with Peyton at 3) and longest completion (99 yards), and he's second all time in a score of other records, like most consecutive games with at least 1 TD pass. That's hard evidence, not fanboy-speak.

With all that, I may be a fan, but I've also watched most of the games he played over his career with the Packers, and I can tell you for a fact he was better than his stats indicate, not worse. For example, the Packers would occasionally lose a game because Favre threw a pick, but far more often Favre would throw a pick because the team was losing the game. You can see that in the interception records; even though he holds the career record, he's nowhere near the top in interceptions in a single season, or a single game. He threw that many picks in his careeer because he threw an above average amount of them over a really, really long time, not because he threw an outrageously huge amount of them all the time.

As an aside, I note that John Elway holds the record for most times being sacked by a pretty wide margin.

You actually think he's done now?

Yes. But if he keeps playing he'll throw another 20 TDs next year, adding to his record.

Oh please. The problem was never whether or not he had a right to keep playing, it's his bullshit "oh no I don't oh yes I do" want shit.

That's a valid criticism. It's the source of the trouble he's gotten himself into the past couple of years. His career is more than the past couple of years, though, even though he's been acting like a baby lately.

The only unfair criticism on that count is that some people think he's been flip-flopping for a long time. That's not true at all. The end of 2007 was the first time he ever personally gave the impression he was thinking about retiring, and then he didn't. Before that it was just chatter by commentators. He retired once and unretired once (so far). Granted it was a ham-fisted unretirement.

You say that as if it's unlikely. Peyton is the biggest iron man since Favre, nothing's stopping him...if you think Peyton is not taking every other record you're just deluding yourself. Nothing short of a full career meltdown or major injury will stop him.

You say that as if it's impossible.

All it takes is one bad play to lose a whole year. Just ask Tom Brady, Carson Palmer, Daunte Culpepper, Rex Grossman, Trent Green, Charlie Batch, etc.

If Peyton breaks all Favre's records, good for him. That just means Favre will be second all-time in all those categories instead of number one (still ahead of Elway, Montana, Marino, Unitas, and company). I don't think that would diminsh Favre's career, though. I'd say Petyon (like Montana) has been on better teams with better receivers for the majority of his career so far than Favre had on average. How many seasons in a row have the Colts won at least 12 games? 6 now? That's unheard of. Manning's had Harrison and Wayne (two HOF receivers) most of that time. After Sterling Sharpe had his career ended prematurely, Favre's never had receivers of that caliber. The corps the Packers have now is the best they've ever had since Favre first joined the team.

Let's not forget that four or five years ago Green Bay was atrocious. Favre and Driver were the only good players on the team. Those years coincided with a spike in his interceptions, because he was taking lots of risks because that's the only chance the Packers had to win. I know, because I saw the games instead of just the stats.

With Dungy gone, who knows what will happen to the Colts? I don't expect them to start sucking all of a sudden, but it's very possible they start to decline. In any case, Manning will be close to the end of his career before he breaks those records, and every year he gets older increases the chances of injury. So don't count your chickens before they hatch.

I guess the real question is, which five QBs do you put ahead of Favre?

 

[Sander]

With all that, I may be a fan, but I've also watched most of the games he played over his career with the Packers, and I can tell you for a fact he was better than his stats indicate, not worse. For example, the Packers would occasionally lose a game because Favre threw a pick, but far more often Favre would throw a pick because the team was losing the game. You can see that in the interception records; even though he holds the career record, he's nowhere near the top in interceptions in a single season, or a single game. He threw that many picks in his careeer because he threw an above average amount of them over a really, really long time, not because he threw an outrageously huge amount of them all the time.

So you're saying that instead of being incidentally atrocious and having a few bad games or seasons, he's just been consistently throwing a higher amount of interceptions than anyone else throughout his career, and you think that that is a good thing?

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

lulz.

you even know who Brett Favre is, sander?

 

[Sander]

lulz.

you even know who Brett Favre is, sander?

Yes.
I've been brushing up on American FOOTBALL through playing Madden 2008.

Also, he's kind of part of pop-culture so sleek references to him are present in lots of shows I watch, and hence ingrained in my brain.

 

[Brother None]

Also, he's kind of part of pop-culture so sleek references to him are present in lots of shows I watch, and hence ingrained in my brain.

Twinks is a fanatic cheesehead, Sander, don't expect any rational remarks on Favre from him. He probably grew up masturbating to Favre's stubble.

Not true at all. Anyone with a realistic view knows he is top-5 GOAT. If you check out the stats, Favre holds all sorts of passing records beyond just attempts, completions, TDs, consecutive starts at QB, INTs, and all the other popularly known ones. For example, he holds the record for most seasons with at least 3000 yards passing at 17 (and that's consecutive). He's also tied for first in several others categories, like most MVPs (tied with Peyton at 3) and longest completion (99 yards), and he's second all time in a score of other records, like most consecutive games with at least 1 TD pass. That's hard evidence, not fanboy-speak.

Do we really have to have a "stats ain't everything" debate here? Lest you forgot, Favre took over a lot of those regular-season records from Marino. And Marino, with his status as not-the-winningest-ever-really in the post-season isn't a serious contender for top-5 GOAT either. Hey, hang on, don't Marino and Favre share a record? Oh yeah, most post-season losses as a QB. Why would Favre, with his single superbowl, be?

Besides, like Marino, many of Favre's records are due to longevity. His NFL MVP awards are the only outsider in that and you know a lot of that is due to his popularity. As far as I know, he doesn't hold a single relevant single-season passing record.

Talking about winningest, isn't this mister "career record post-season interceptions"

You can see that in the interception records; even though he holds the career record, he's nowhere near the top in interceptions in a single season, or a single game.

I see you are conveniently forgetting to mention he was the single-season leader in INTs quite a few times; 1993, 2005 (by a monstrous margin, with his 29 INTs compared to Bledsoes 17) and 2008. Or near-top (2003 shared 3rd, 1998 and 1999 2nd).

Sure, you can explain a lot of interceptions because he's playing from behind. Guess what: that's true for a lot of QBs, yet few of them have been as erratic in desperation time as Favre. Every QB has a few final-minute INTs or hail maries intercepted, you can't really discount statistical evidence like this because it's not just true for Brett.

As an aside, I note that John Elway holds the record for most times being sacked by a pretty wide margin.

Do you even watch this game? Sacks are primarily an O-Line stat, not a QB stat. Jesus man...

Yes. But if he keeps playing he'll throw another 20 TDs next year, adding to his record.

If he keeps playing, 20 TDs, 30 INTs. Easy. Talk about adding to a record.

Look, I could live with the argument that Favre might inch into top 5 GOAT if we only consider the position of QB (maybe that's what you were saying since the start, if so: apologies). But in legacy, he just doesn't compare to contemporaries like John Elway or Tom Brady, let alone people like Bart Starr, Steve Young or Joe Montana. Hell, I might even put Johnny Unitas in front of him. So he's an outside candidate for top 5 GOAT at QB, at best. He's not even mentioned in top 5 GOAT over all positions.

Why? It's simple, all the records over a long career don't add up to great consistent single-season showings, nor do they polish away a lack of super bowl wins. Favre is one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time, like, top 10, and a justified first-ballot HoFer. But more than that? Heck no. Open your eyes, drop your Cheesehead veneer, and embrace the truth.

The only unfair criticism on that count is that some people think he's been flip-flopping for a long time. That's not true at all. The end of 2007 was the first time he ever personally gave the impression he was thinking about retiring, and then he didn't. Before that it was just chatter by commentators. He retired once and unretired once (so far). Granted it was a ham-fisted unretirement.

Sure, he only did the retire-unretire flipflop once, but he's kept Green Bay in limbo for two years prior to the final retire offseason. You can't tell me all the talk about "will Favre retire or not?" and him not confirming to management either way was just media chatter. They had a seriously disgruntled QB-of-the-future because they drafted him too early considering how long Favre stayed.

I don't think that would diminsh Favre's career, though.

Never said it would. That's a conclusion only Favre-fans could draw.

I'd say Petyon (like Montana) has been on better teams with better receivers for the majority of his career so far than Favre had on average. How many seasons in a row have the Colts won at least 12 games? 6 now? That's unheard of. Manning's had Harrison and Wayne (two HOF receivers) most of that time. After Sterling Sharpe had his career ended prematurely, Favre's never had receivers of that caliber.

Oh, nice simplification there. Let's completely ignore that the Colts have always been over-invested in defense, meaning Manning often had to make up for a soft D (which, according to you, is a situation that explains away high INT numbers, yet Manning doesn't have them?). And despite the truism that soft D gets you nowhere in the playoffs, Manning still gets blamed for the one-and-outs.

You can't have it both ways, man. Yes, Peyton has better receivers. But would those receivers be as good with Peyton throwing to them? I seriously doubt it. If you want to include these kind of factors, include them fairly, not just as excuses.

With Dungy gone, who knows what will happen to the Colts? I don't expect them to start sucking all of a sudden, but it's very possible they start to decline. In any case, Manning will be close to the end of his career before he breaks those records, and every year he gets older increases the chances of injury. So don't count your chickens before they hatch.

Nobody will. It's just the most likely thing to happen. To think otherwise is just denying an obvious truth.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

don't be a eurodick. he was FUN to watch. it's no accident that people fell in love with the guy.

and about the masturbating on his stubble comment, i grew up with a sub-par Packer team. it wasn't until Favre that i had a team worth watching. it was VERY similar to the sort of Red Sox fanaticism of die-hard fans watching a team even though they'd probably lose every week.

Favre was seen as a sort of messiah in Wisconsin.