People said:
Bugs can be fixed but shitty design is forever.
Oblivion out today
- Thread starter brandons1313
- Start date
Bugs can be fixed but shitty design is forever.
Kharn said:
I don't understand how he's doing that when he's detectable, but that's really funny. On a similar note - I just discovered today that by attacking people in the city when you're alone, but not killing them, you can get the guards to kill them for you. If they attack you back, you just run to where the guards are and the guards will beat them down. If they run away yelling "Assault!", follow them - the guards will start attacking them instead of you. Helpful citizens will also join in the attack on your "enemy".
Heh, funny you should mention that, here are some extensive experiments done on guard mechanics:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fRWY6TOeR1Q
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F8hetpJxXSw
The first one has the same situation done over and over with different results (I especially like the arrow)
The second one makes no sense until the second half, that stuff is hilarious.
PS: aren't you glad the Oblivion physics make those NPCs bounce back from their impact to the table? Realism!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fRWY6TOeR1Q
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F8hetpJxXSw
The first one has the same situation done over and over with different results (I especially like the arrow)
The second one makes no sense until the second half, that stuff is hilarious.
PS: aren't you glad the Oblivion physics make those NPCs bounce back from their impact to the table? Realism!
lol, those are my experiences exactly. Realistic AI? No. Fun for in-game sadists? Oh yes.
Yeah, the Havoc engine can be fun to play around with but it's awful as far as "realism" goes. Bodies react like dummies filled with cotton and springs and bounce off of everything like they were in a pinball machine. The only good thing about it is that it's a step above Deus Ex: Invisible War's version, in which everyone you killed or knocked unconcious would have their torsos buckle outward - hard for me to describe, but basically they all ended up shaped like a "C", with their knees on the bottom and chests on top. It was really, really goofy looking.
Kharn said:
Yeah, the Havoc engine can be fun to play around with but it's awful as far as "realism" goes. Bodies react like dummies filled with cotton and springs and bounce off of everything like they were in a pinball machine. The only good thing about it is that it's a step above Deus Ex: Invisible War's version, in which everyone you killed or knocked unconcious would have their torsos buckle outward - hard for me to describe, but basically they all ended up shaped like a "C", with their knees on the bottom and chests on top. It was really, really goofy looking.
Kharn said:
"Goodnight."
"Good-bye."
Hilarious.
And, it seems that the guard AI is behind a decade, if they attack people who are in self-defense combat. That's like having UO guards kill the person who cries out "Help guards!" The Three Stooges Guards clip was pretty amusing, as apparently the Radiant AI also doesn't take into account faction or group traits for determining legit combat targets.
That is pretty pathetic for something hyped on more than it was evidently worked on, as many of these problems are simple variable conditions.
Amusing, yes. Especially when Bethesda is the butt of the joke, though the real joke is on those who bought the game expecting halfway decent AI given how Bethesda had hyped it was "OMFGSOCOOOL!". It really makes you wonder what the chowderheads at Bethesda are getting paid for when a team with 1/5 the crew (and even less of a QA team, I suppose Bethesda got a good deal on donuts) can whip their pants off on almost all technical levels, especially level design, with Gothic and its sequel.
Radiant Artificial Innovation at its finest!
I know you guys are going to apply a blowtorch to my balls for saying this, but I think you need to see the developer’s side.
I think selling micro-addons to RPGs is an excellent idea!
After making my own RPG and seeing first hand how much work is involved, I think RPG's should cost twice as much as other games, because there is at least twice as much work involved. The main problem is charging double isn't an option, because the market won't stand it. Players don't care how much work goes into a game, all they care about is if its fun or not and how it compares in price to other games. Which is fair enough.
So after watching my 8 year old nephew spend almost a $1000 over the last 2 years on plastic Lord of the Rings figures (at rip off prices), I've often asked myself how can I get into the "collectors" market . It looks like Bethesda has come up with a solution and I wouldn't be surprised if we see alot more of this in the future.
I was pretty sure Bethesda would go out of business eventually, considering the direction the games industry is taking; You either get very big or you're dead. But now I'm more optimistic about their survival.
Note:
I haven't followed all of this discussion (because I'm busy working on my game), but I have seen the complaints about bugs in Oblivion. This post isn't about bugs or Bethesda's ethics; it’s about how small to medium sized companies can continue to make games in the future (if these guys don't survive, it will be companies like EA making all of the games).
I think selling micro-addons to RPGs is an excellent idea!
After making my own RPG and seeing first hand how much work is involved, I think RPG's should cost twice as much as other games, because there is at least twice as much work involved. The main problem is charging double isn't an option, because the market won't stand it. Players don't care how much work goes into a game, all they care about is if its fun or not and how it compares in price to other games. Which is fair enough.
So after watching my 8 year old nephew spend almost a $1000 over the last 2 years on plastic Lord of the Rings figures (at rip off prices), I've often asked myself how can I get into the "collectors" market . It looks like Bethesda has come up with a solution and I wouldn't be surprised if we see alot more of this in the future.
I was pretty sure Bethesda would go out of business eventually, considering the direction the games industry is taking; You either get very big or you're dead. But now I'm more optimistic about their survival.
Note:
I haven't followed all of this discussion (because I'm busy working on my game), but I have seen the complaints about bugs in Oblivion. This post isn't about bugs or Bethesda's ethics; it’s about how small to medium sized companies can continue to make games in the future (if these guys don't survive, it will be companies like EA making all of the games).
Uh...so a high-profile game from a high-profile company isn't going to sell enough of their title on its own merits to keep their company going?
Bullshit. Then there's also the point of expansions, which should add something other than munchkinism to the game. NONE OF THESE OFFER ANY REAL ADDITION TO THE GAME. They are, in fact, more like Unreal map assets that don't offer anything more than what a modder could offer, and that is where this crappy marketing idea fails. A CRPG might take longer to design, but charging for what amounts to a skin and a couple of map packs is fucking insane.
The problem now stands of companies centering their development around marketing schemes instead of design that keeps people interested. And we now see where said development schemes lead.
Epic offers their bonus materials for free, because the game can sell on its own, and this act often spotlights community developers. This in turn brings in a larger audience, etc.
So, in short, I guess I have to agree with you that once everyone finds out how dubious Bethesda's claims were for Oblivion, Bethesda will pretty much REQUIRE charging their OCD victims for new "content" to replace the lost sales.
Then Bethesda could also do something else. Tone down the amount spent on hype and instead work on making a proper sequel, which helped Wizardry sell MILLIONS worldwide, regularly, because it was one of the best of its style (we'll leave the whole DimWit Bradley saga for another time). Word of mouth also helped to spread how well the game was recieved, the same with Ultima and others.
Bethesda is known, TES is known, etc.
So if Bethesda wants to make money, I can suggest that they cut most of the apparently useless development team, as a team of 1/5 the size (not counting artists) could make a far better product years ago than what this overhyped company can fail to implement. Again, the Shiny problem, and Shiny was sucking up a load of Interplay's assets without releasing much noteworthy, but were the highest paid development house for quite some time.
So instead of treating their customers like shit, Bethesda can cut the fat and learn how to design.
Bullshit. Then there's also the point of expansions, which should add something other than munchkinism to the game. NONE OF THESE OFFER ANY REAL ADDITION TO THE GAME. They are, in fact, more like Unreal map assets that don't offer anything more than what a modder could offer, and that is where this crappy marketing idea fails. A CRPG might take longer to design, but charging for what amounts to a skin and a couple of map packs is fucking insane.
The problem now stands of companies centering their development around marketing schemes instead of design that keeps people interested. And we now see where said development schemes lead.
Epic offers their bonus materials for free, because the game can sell on its own, and this act often spotlights community developers. This in turn brings in a larger audience, etc.
So, in short, I guess I have to agree with you that once everyone finds out how dubious Bethesda's claims were for Oblivion, Bethesda will pretty much REQUIRE charging their OCD victims for new "content" to replace the lost sales.
Then Bethesda could also do something else. Tone down the amount spent on hype and instead work on making a proper sequel, which helped Wizardry sell MILLIONS worldwide, regularly, because it was one of the best of its style (we'll leave the whole DimWit Bradley saga for another time). Word of mouth also helped to spread how well the game was recieved, the same with Ultima and others.
Bethesda is known, TES is known, etc.
So if Bethesda wants to make money, I can suggest that they cut most of the apparently useless development team, as a team of 1/5 the size (not counting artists) could make a far better product years ago than what this overhyped company can fail to implement. Again, the Shiny problem, and Shiny was sucking up a load of Interplay's assets without releasing much noteworthy, but were the highest paid development house for quite some time.
So instead of treating their customers like shit, Bethesda can cut the fat and learn how to design.
Davaris said:I think selling micro-addons to RPGs is an excellent idea!
I don't agree.
Selling addons with major content is a fair deal.
Mini-plugins, which can be mixed with user made mods, will abuse the modders to promote Beth's crappy commercial content.
They said their aim is to keep the quality on a 'certain level'.
Now we've seen this ridiculous 'certain level'.
It's a rip off - nothing else.
Next step is a dog armor or something like this?
Will the next 'RPG' come out in a basic version only - and for each and every not nessassary piece of content you'll be prompted to pay? Do you want a sword - buy it or go unarmed...
Note the facial expression.
Note the arrow.
Now try to combine the two, logically.
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
he is into sado-machoisim and likes pain?
He's just being a prankster. It's like those "arrow-through-the-head" things you can get - he just cut an arrow in half and glued the two ends to his armor as a joke! Right? Right?!
On a more serious note, I found a nice mod that everyone still playing might want to try out: http://fuzionmedia.com/oblivion/
Basically, it changes leveling up so that your stats change on the fly as your skills increase - so rather than trying to plan out your level-ups to get the best multipliers for just three stats, all of your stats gradually increase as your skills do. Leveling up is same as the regular game - 10 major skill increases is a level up - but leveling up only effects health, fatigue and magica as well as the game's loot and enemy system. It's pretty neat and makes playing the game feel a lot more natural than constantly trying to use skills you normally wouldn't just to increase your multipliers. Get the 2.07 beta though, the 2.06 screws up strength progression pretty badly - not really noticable if you're a fighter, but pretty terrible if you're a thief or mage just trying to get some extra carrying capacity.
On a more serious note, I found a nice mod that everyone still playing might want to try out: http://fuzionmedia.com/oblivion/
Basically, it changes leveling up so that your stats change on the fly as your skills increase - so rather than trying to plan out your level-ups to get the best multipliers for just three stats, all of your stats gradually increase as your skills do. Leveling up is same as the regular game - 10 major skill increases is a level up - but leveling up only effects health, fatigue and magica as well as the game's loot and enemy system. It's pretty neat and makes playing the game feel a lot more natural than constantly trying to use skills you normally wouldn't just to increase your multipliers. Get the 2.07 beta though, the 2.06 screws up strength progression pretty badly - not really noticable if you're a fighter, but pretty terrible if you're a thief or mage just trying to get some extra carrying capacity.
21_Blessings
First time out of the vault
Kharn said:
Bethesda, unwitting starters of many caption contests all over the internet.
That is also one hell of a short arrow, what fired it? A paperclip and rubber band? I'm surprised it wouldn't go into the shooter's bow hand after being nocked and pulled, since I doubt they are using a miniature bow, and the fellow's extended arm is longer than the length of the arrow. A foot and a half arrow means that the bow length has to be under 30 inches for the arrow to still remain braced against the bow during pull, and someone of normal size will only be able to draw shallowly to fire such a bow - 30" and below are children's bow sizes. No way in hell it could have been fired from a longbow or anything near that size, and it has too many feathers to be even a hand arbalest bolt (which usually has a few more feathers to offer more stabilization during flight over a lighter crossbow's bolt, as the bolts tend to be heavier).
That is also one hell of a short arrow, what fired it? A paperclip and rubber band? I'm surprised it wouldn't go into the shooter's bow hand after being nocked and pulled, since I doubt they are using a miniature bow, and the fellow's extended arm is longer than the length of the arrow. A foot and a half arrow means that the bow length has to be under 30 inches for the arrow to still remain braced against the bow during pull, and someone of normal size will only be able to draw shallowly to fire such a bow - 30" and below are children's bow sizes. No way in hell it could have been fired from a longbow or anything near that size, and it has too many feathers to be even a hand arbalest bolt (which usually has a few more feathers to offer more stabilization during flight over a lighter crossbow's bolt, as the bolts tend to be heavier).
requiem_for_a_starfury
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
my 60 lb recurve was not a childrens bow and it was a 32" arrow...
TheWesDude said:
32", which is about a meter...not the FOOT AND A HALF of this arrow, which is roughly HALF A METER. Half the size dramatically scales down the effective size of the bow required to fire it.
For example: Your string length would have been from around 30"-46", though 30" would be stretching the bow power vs arrow weight balance, and bled some of the grace of the bow, a lot of the arrow speed as well. 48" for the string length of a conventional bow would suit that arrow length much better.
You can use a longer arrow with more bows than a short one, of course.
And, so far so good on those captions.
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
it was a like 45-46" bow string.