Oblivion's (lack of) AI

[Sorrow]

Maybe we should start writing things like:
"It would be cool if Fallout 3 had things like a turn based combat, which would have things like targeting body parts. It would be cool if you could do things like shooting people in groin...
And it would be cool if a critical hit would cause the enemy to lose consciousness. Or fall apart.
Yeah it would be cool.
And they could add things like an electric cattle prod. You could use one to thrust into a groin.
Yeah it would be cool*drools*.

It would be cool if you could break people's arms and then kick them in groin until they die.
I remember that FT had real-time combat, but it sucked, because you couldn't aim every attack you want because it was too fast and you missed all those cool damage descriptions like:
"You hit her in groin for 69 hp. She takes it like a man. That is to say, it hurts"

And turn based mode would be cool because you could aim avery attack that you make, changing between groin, eyes and limbs."

 

[Roshambo]

Serifan:
Have you tried any Indie games yet? Spiderweb is good value for money and mine has an update coming soon that you might want to check out. The only downside is the price will be going up on that update and I'll be raising it again the next update after that.

And give me about 3-4 years on mine, but maybe longer, as we're taking the Origin approach to it. It's done when it's done, and we want to make a complete game, I'd even be pleased if takes 6 years to make a brilliant game. The script and design docs alone took about 3 years of writing and revisions, that are still being worked upon. I want to make a game that I would enjoy playing and that would impress me, set to my own standards, and might meet the standards of others except for graphics.

I am using this opportunity to give some newbie indie artists some industry experience and resumé filter as well as some scripting experience, so I'm using a number of varying graphic styles that will lend well to the combination of Adventure genres for which we're aiming. RPG will be the core gameplay, but there will be a few menu-based areas, and some point and click movement, but those are depending upon the gameplay element in question. Like an information terminal for the former menu-based, and something like cyberspace for the latter point and click.

Yes, the laziness and incompetence of some people really do serve as a drive to actually deliver something with content and substance, and maybe a little attempt at imagination, to the audience. As a developer with integrity, it does chafe when the industry seems to have gone to The Pimply Hell of 80's Crack Children. It seems like nobody is trying to go for innovation anymore, instead it seems like they are only making cheap attempts to cash in on cheap features, and let the genre go to hell for a bit of cheap effort. It stands to reason that if a quality AAA production developer does make the effort to make a great old Ultima IV-school CRPG, then they should do quite well because the market is virtually untapped. Jeff Vogel has a substantial audience, but misses a number due to puerile reasons such as graphics (and doesn't care, likewise as myself, those insipid people are not worthy of our attention).

For instance, Ultima VII, while being regarded as having troubling combat that would later fuck the series with Super Avatar Brothers (Ultima 8), wasn't widely regarded as a wad of shit across many different communities...like Oblivion. They both had about the same number of people on the development team, the same budget and resources, only one development team cared to have imagination to offset the bad features. Only one was designed around "shiny", and AI that would be retroactively trumped by something that came out about 14 years previously.

Bethesda simply isn't trying anymore.

 

[Davaris]

Roshambo:

I've been thinking you should be working on an RPG, because you understand what makes Fallout, Fallout.

Unless its all hush, hush I'd be interested in seeing an outline of your game. Is it going to be fantasy, post apoc or something else? Also what rule system are you going to use?

EDIT:
As for graphics if you don't want your game to be compared to AAA games, you could try making them symbolic. I plan to use this method on my next game, which will be a cross between a fantasy lead figure war game and Monopoly if you believe that.

 

[Roshambo]

Roshambo:

I've been thinking you should be working on an RPG, because you understand what makes Fallout, Fallout.

Well, it's a curse of knowing design, in seeing how it was made. Being familiar with every aspect of putting together a game also doesn't lend well when you see people making a mess of it.

You can see cut corners, sloppy design, and the simple lack of noticable effort; it's a curse that doesn't allow you to appreciate superficiality. Ultima was visionary. TES has become visual.

Unless its all hush, hush I'd be interested in seeing an outline of your game. Is it going to be fantasy, post apoc or something else? Also what rule system are you going to use?

Initially, futuristic with sci-fi elements, and as odd as this might sound, later go into fantasy. Well, the fantasy part is planned for the sequel, and we intend to have a multiple outcome and multiple introduction akin to Wizardry, yet have it a bit more complex.

Like, for instance, in Avernum 1, you could help someone start their hot springs resort with a bit of funding. In the sequel, you notice it was abandoned.

Things like this are so simple to add a bit of flavor with imported save games. If you check for the flag in the save that means the player gave them money, perhaps the hot springs is doing well (might need something else, like clearing critters nearby to make it safe), and you would get something nice in the second game as an extended reward, even though it's an entirely different party. It rewards the player, most importantly, by giving depth.

It adds a lot more depth, that I feel is worth the time spent upon it. Maybe a half hour, judging from how long it took to type out something equivalent with all the scripting tags plotted out (I like to keep my design docs neat and informative, so there's no question of what points to what).

Rule system? My own, but in a P&P style that is more tabletop, as that will be part of the game's presentation.

EDIT:
As for graphics if you don't want your game to be compared to AAA games, you could try making them symbolic. I plan to use this method on my next game, which will be a cross between a fantasy lead figure war game and Monopoly if you believe that.

A lot of indie games do this, which isn't that bad given that modeling isn't the easiest of things to do. Part of my graphics will be 2d models mapped and volumetrically applied to 3d structures...towards a comic look. It will be 3d, but only the buildings could be considered "polygon". I intend to implement a version of the rendering system I have previously mentioned was being worked upon, to smooth out rounded and even conical objects without using much for resources or making it look like ass with clipping.

 

[Davaris]

and you would get something nice in the second game as an extended reward, even though it's an entirely different party. It rewards the player, most importantly, by giving depth.

It would be very easy to make a text based config file that different versions of your games could read from and save to.



As well as multipath and consequences I suggest you consider including emotional feedback in your game. Fallout achieved it with the talking heads in the dialogue screen and I have been working on it for the next update of my game.

Just adding simple pictures of heads (in the dialogue screen) that frown or smile, depending on how you behave, has changed the feel of the game for me. It has gone from feeling flat, to feeling like it is a real world. I wish I had done it a long time ago.

 

[Roshambo]

It would be very easy to make a text based config file that different versions of your games could read from and save to.

And simple to load into the cache file as a few background variables that don't really take up much space.

I wish I had done it a long time ago.

Portraits will be for notable NPCs, much like Ultima VII. Some generic NPCs will have portraits as well. Animations will be left for a few special NPCs and joinable NPCs. For the most part, response will be from an Adored-Pissed scale, and we'll add a bit of darkening to the portrait, too, some other effects, make them look a bit more pissed.

Kind of like Might and Magic later on.

 

[maximaz]

The game lags at different stages really. Yes, it does happen when I ride horses especially, but generally when the game says "Loading area" (which is no surprise) and combat. Combat lag usually only happens in the open areas and when there are a few people trying to kill you

But back to the point. Don't get me wrong maximaz, I didn't enjoy the missions, but it certainly had me wanting to see what was next, thus keeping me going on the game. They are boring and long-winded missions that are just plain unenjoyable.

Yes, I get what you're saying and I agree, some quests do have cool background stories behind them where you want to know what happens but actually doing them mostly isn't fun. It just annoys me after awhile because all the quests are too long, you have to do the same thing several times in one quest, only more each time. I'd like them to vary in length and difficulty. They're totally linear too, there's only one way you can finish any quest basically, you can't even kill a person who you might have quest business with, they won't die and that's a pretty big deal. Nothing compensates enough for all that either.

That said, I'm not sorry I got it, I mean this is probably as rpg as a game on 360 will get (not talking about PC version, my computer can't run dick of these damn games they make now) and nothing good comes out anymore anyway, compared to what they make nowadays it's far from the shitiest game (which is not saying anything good about the game but rather something bad about the industry). So... yeah

 

[Roshambo]

That said, I'm not sorry I got it, I mean this is probably as rpg as a game on 360 will get (not talking about PC version, my computer can't run dick of these damn games they make now) and nothing good comes out anymore anyway, compared to what they make nowadays it's far from the shitiest game (which is not saying anything good about the game but rather something bad about the industry). So... yeah

Bullshit, unless you're talking about the mainstream US CRPG developers, and then yes, most of them are crap..

If you're not worried about graphics, and concerned instead about gameplay like a good CRPG, check out Spiderweb Software's line-up of games from Exile to Geneforge. Indie.

Then, if you'd like decent graphics, and maybe some action combat that doesn't totally suck, try out the Gothic series. What you do influences the world, and Gothic 1's AI in terms of NPC behavior just trumps that of Oblivion. You see people going about on schedules, reacting a bit to one another, and also react to your presence and in turn what you do in response to their challenge. German developers.

Davaris also has a few titles under development, and an update for a current title. Ask him or look at his profile/sig for a link to his site.

 

[Davaris]

Davaris also has a few titles under development, and an update for a current title. Ask him or look at his profile/sig for a link to his site.

Thanks for the plug Rosh.

maximaz:
If you haven't played my demo before, wait for the update after this coming one (I'll see if I can get a mention of it in the news).

The next update will have the new speech skills in it, which I'm very excited about. But the update after that will include the Hard RPG rules, which is something I've been wanting to do for a long time.

With the Hard RPG rules you'll play the game with no re-loading if you get killed. Also if you mess up in some way, by saying the wrong thing or killing the wrong person, you'll have to accept the consequences and play it out in the rest of the game.

Its experimental and I know some people will hate it, but the idea is force the player to role play and accept the consequences of their actions, rather than constantly saving and reloading to force their way through.

 

[maximaz]

Roshambo
Now I gotta add to my post: "except the games you don't hear about, at least not nearly as much as you do about all the crap out there."
I'll be sure to check out the ones you mentioned, I've heard about Gothic series a lot but that perspective kinda bothered me, it does sound good from what you say though so I will definitely try it out.

Davaris
The game looks and sounds cool, looks like the next game I'm getting into. How complete is the full version? Would you recommend waiting to buy it if I like the demo?

 

[Davaris]

How complete is the full version?

I released the game 2-3 years ago and apart from being extremely ugly, it was as complete back then as it is now. The only problem is I keep going back and adding and changing things, because (after playing Fallout) I am obsessed with making one truly great game.

I'm pretty sure I'll still be doing things to it in 3 years time.

Would you recommend waiting to buy it if I like the demo?

I'd recommend waiting for the next 2 updates before you even try the demo, as there are some radical changes coming through.

Look for a mention of "Hard RPG" in the News section of my website. That's the version you'll want to try out.

P.S.
I'll be raising the price when it becomes a Hard RPG, so if you decide to buy it, send me an email mentioning this thread and I'll arrange it so you can get it at the old price.

 

[Pope Viper]

What we have to look forward to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOrs4dHkimk&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neRn2eBK9dg&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX8ARDiamqo&mode=related&search=

We. Are. Screwed.

 

[Vault 69er]

You clearly aren't next gen enough to appreciate the wonders of Radiant AI and Havok and their "extra features!"

 

[Makagulfazel]

Re: What we have to look forward to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOrs4dHkimk&mode=related&search=

"lol... He was spasmsing, like an electric shock going through him. Oh it is fun to watch, but it makes you wonder if the next time you go through the door, will static electrcity strike you the same way?

LOL"

... No. Not even a tad bit funny, DarkWarfare772. You suck at being a comedian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neRn2eBK9dg&mode=related&search=

"LOLOLOLOLOL I LAUGHED SO HARD nearly choked on my macoroni lol that is hilaroius duddde"

It's a competition on YouTube to write like a 2 year old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX8ARDiamqo&mode=related&search=

"WTF..ha ha LMAO..WTF ..lol"

The more acronyms you use, the cooler you are.

We. Are. Screwed.

Yeah... At least you aren't one of those Sheeple.

 

[Sorrow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOrs4dHkimk&mode=related&search=

That's really sick and disturbing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neRn2eBK9dg&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX8ARDiamqo&mode=related&search=

That's pretty amusing. I've never seen glitches like that in Fallout.

 

[Pipboy2000]

Awesome grave dig.

I've encountered the "flying Rufio" thing before, just not Rufio.

 

[Silencer]

Hey, but I just saw a working cutpurse in Oblivion? What is this?

 

[mr. pastorius]

Awesome grave dig.

Actually, a new thread was merged with this one.

That's pretty amusing. I've never seen glitches like that in Fallout.

That's probably because BIS put content over Graffix & Immershun (TM), so there wasn't very much room for glitches such as these. Well, as far as the first game is concerned, at least.

 

[Brother None]

That's pretty amusing. I've never seen glitches like that in Fallout.

Fallout had much worse glitches of hilarious nature, like the Infinite Ian bug. Not to mention Fallout 2.

No, believe me, Bethesda does a lot better bug/glitch wise than BIS, that might be one of the only areas, with graphics, where we can be sure to go forwards.

 

[Sorrow]

I remember Fallout bugs. I just don't recall seeing those stupid "stuck in the door/wall" style bugs in 2d games. On the other hand I remember more than a few 3d games I had similar (though not as drastic and perverse) bugs.