Opinions on Communism

[Crni Vuk]

The thing is, what some have simply to understand, is that people confuse common sense and decency with leftist opinions. No one. Fucking no one here is seriously in favour of authoritarian communism. But why someone would seriously argue against affordable health care, medication, food and education is beyond me. Buhuhuuu! You born poor? Nuhuu jobs for you? Cry me a river! Yeah, let us see how you feel about it when those people burn your car and burgle in your homes or mug you on the street. Societies simply don't function very well when the common people feel that there is to much injustice, what ever if that is coming from the economy or jurisdiction.
And really, it doesn't matter about what system we're even talking about. Be it governments, democracies, corporations or even dictatorships/monarchies. In systems that actually work, the rulers understood very well that you have to provide a minimum when it comes to the needs of the common people, like trials, fair pricing, a kind of proportionality. This was even true with feudalism. Simply to make sure that your society is stable. And this is important and beneficial for everyone, regardless if you're a rich greedy bastard, a corporate whore, some kind of king or what ever. If only to keep the ruling class in power. When people starve, freeze or otherwise suffer, while a rather small group has a lot, things can become very fast pretty ugly. People that have nothing to lose, but with lots of time and frustration in their mind, are simply fucking dangerous, it doesn't take a lot to push them over the edge. History has proven that time and time again. If they don't have bread, let them eat cake behaviour isn't going to help in that situation.

 

[zegh8578]

If they don't have bread, let them eat cake behaviour isn't going to help in that situation.

Whoever has that attitude isn't interested in helping, because helping is sooo leftist in the first place

That is one of the keys of "edgy" politics, "go die in a ditch"-mentalities. It is (often, but not always) deluded self angrandizement and projection. Instead of looking at oneself, and realizing "aw, I'm a useless pudge" they proclaim "all useless pudges must die! because if I was one, I surely wouldn't hold such an opinion, would I?"

I've seen this attitude in scummy people my whole life, and you also asked the same thing - showing that photo of the less-than-übermenschish nazi. Someone so FAR from being an "übermensh", someone so FAR from being independent and strong, someone so CLOSE to being trash, they have a personal choice to make - either see reality for what it is, and come to terms with who they are
or go into a delusion that begins with "all sub-humans must die - because expressing this excludes me from being one!"

People are so agonizingly predictable sometimes, and seeing that Illuminati Confirmed is an internet forum boy with no real experience in life, I am VERY inclined to lump him into the self-loathing projecting category, no prospect, no job, no future - "all people with no prospect, no job, no future must die! Because expressing that, convinces everyone that I am all but that!"

 

[NotAcasul]

My opinion:

Communism is really toxic for countries. Nearly every country that has attempted to instill communism as a base for the government either end up: A. with a shit economy, B. With a terrible dictator, or C. with a terrible relation with it's people.

Let's take a look at the list of communist failures;

Cuba: Shithole economy, terrible leaders, serious uprisings, and lots of poverty.

North Korea: North Korea

and China: To be fair, their economy is pretty decent, but the government there is conniving and very heavy-handed with the Secret police. Crime runs rampant, and the political parties will do anything to make sure that they win, causing more crime.

Now I must skedaddle off and yes, skedaddle is a real word.

 

[zegh8578]

My opinion:

Communism is really toxic for countries. Nearly every country that has attempted to instill communism as a base for the government either end up: A. with a shit economy, B. With a terrible dictator, or C. with a terrible relation with it's people.

Let's take a look at the list of communist failures;

Cuba: Shithole economy, terrible leaders, serious uprisings, and lots of poverty.

North Korea: North Korea

and China: To be fair, their economy is pretty decent, but the government there is conniving and very heavy-handed with the Secret police. Crime runs rampant, and the political parties will do anything to make sure that they win, causing more crime.

Now I must skedaddle off and yes, skedaddle is a real word.

To be fair, like you say, China's economy is pretty decent.
Here are some capitalist democracies:
Somalia
Eritrea
Southern Sudan
India
Russia

Should we just scoff these off as "not counting" simply because they are failed capitalist democracies?

Like you said, those you listed are failures. Failure comes from corruption. It is a pity real equality has yet to get a fair chance.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I don't think that anyone here really was in favour of communism and seriously defended it ... so I am not sure where this angst is comming from. Doesn't mean you can't look it from all angles. One advantage we humans sure have, is that we can learn from mistakes - or so I hope.

Whoever has that attitude isn't interested in helping, because helping is sooo leftist in the first place

That is one of the keys of "edgy" politics, "go die in a ditch"-mentalities. It is (often, but not always) deluded self angrandizement and projection. Instead of looking at oneself, and realizing "aw, I'm a useless pudge" they proclaim "all useless pudges must die! because if I was one, I surely wouldn't hold such an opinion, would I?"

It's all about extremes. Anything else is booooring! Doesn't get you votes. Doesn't sell books. And it doesn't stir up the masses. Russians? They are out there to kill youuuu! China? They want your jobs! Mexicans! Rapists! At least most of those that crose the border, you know! And all the other stuff that is used to stir up the masses and to frighten the people. However, even I have often to remind my self, Things are never as bad as they seem. Because when it comes down to real world issues, you can't really live with extremes and you can't make reasonable decisions out of fear and anxiety. I have yet to see a state that is actually working and in a constant war or something. I mean let us take a look at North Korea. They are living in extreme conditions. Their population is subject to constant propaganda, most of their economy suffers from their military expenses and the people are told for the last 60 years how they are under constant threat of the imperalist west. This is what you get when you always push some extreme views.

 

[mikek17]

Why would I base my economic philosophy on a man who never even had a real job (Karl Marx)? Enough said right there. While I'm talking about "crap the communists did" how about Mao? Jeez he was RETARDED. Example: telling the farmers to melt down all of their tools so they could become "industrial" gee I wonder how that one turned out...

 

[Izak]

Why would I base my economic philosophy on a man who never even had a real job (Karl Marx)?

You realise Karl Marx never held a real job because he was busy developing a thesis right? (Also due to his being exiled, it's difficult to get a job when you're a political pariah.)
Besides, it's not as though Marx was the only guy developing communism: Lenin, Mao, Rosa Luxemburg, Stalin and Trotsky were politicians, Engels was a published author and WEB Du Bois was a civil rights activist, should we ignore their contributions to the communist theory because they weren't first?
If you guys are going to judge communism do so because of the logistical impossibility of the whole idea, not because an exiled philosopher didn't have a real job.

 

[zegh8578]

Enough said right there.

Not really. Just because you declare that enough has been said, doesn't just make it so. Let me show you!
See?
I am saying plenty more allready.

Again, these examples are flawed because look: Pinochet was not communist, he was supported by democratic, capitalist America.
Oh my freakin God - a non-communist asshole?
What about George W Bush and his bombardment of Iraq? There has JUST been finished another report, reinforcing for the n-th time, that this war was illegal. Support it or don't, but at least 100 000 people died for some capitalist scum plot, higher numbers go to a million people dead.

You listed two, I listed two. Seems we have cancelled each others out.

Also, "never had a job"? What job did Aristotle have? Or Newton? "Natural philosopher" lol, in other words sitting on his ass all day having apples fall on his head.
Judging an entire philosophy by wether or not the philosopher "had a job" is - well - retarded.

 

[aenemic]

Why would I base my economic philosophy on a man who never even had a real job (Karl Marx)? Enough said right there. While I'm talking about "crap the communists did" how about Mao? Jeez he was RETARDED. Example: telling the farmers to melt down all of their tools so they could become "industrial" gee I wonder how that one turned out...

Marx didn't exactly invent the ideas behind communism. Besides, you'd be surprised how many people of great power around the world "never even had a real job".

As for Mao, see my earlier comment about opportunists.

 

[Erich van Loon]

Communism is good on paper and sounds cool when mentioned.

In practice, look where it got certain countries. Made them absolute shit-holes imo.

 

[mikek17]

Also, "never had a job"? What job did Aristotle have? Or Newton? "Natural philosopher" lol, in other words sitting on his ass all day having apples fall on his head.
Judging an entire philosophy by wether or not the philosopher "had a job" is - well - retarded.

How can you criticize an economic system (an a work system, because that's what they cared about, with all the "workers of the world" and so forth) when you haven't taken part in it?

 

[Izak]

How can you criticize an economic system (a work system, because that's what they cared about, with all the "workers of the world" and so forth) when you haven't taken part in it?

You realise that almost all philosophers haven't had 'real' jobs right? As Zegh had said, Aristotle wasn't really a politician yet he contributed to political science, it's the same for Marx, he wasn't a worker but he contributed to economic theories. Honestly what's your point? Marx had a degree in philosophy, does that not confer to him, according to your criteria, a right to philosophise?

 

[mikek17]

You realise that almost all philosophers haven't had 'real' jobs right? As Zegh had said, Aristotle wasn't really a politician yet he contributed to political science, it's the same for Marx, he wasn't a worker but he contributed to economic theories. Honestly what's your point? Marx had a degree in philosophy, does that not confer to him, according to your criteria, a right to philosophise?

I just don't understand how you can consider his criticism valid when he hasn't used the system he's criticizing. That's like saying a book is bad but you have never read it. Or maybe that's just the way I look at it.

 

[zegh8578]

I just don't understand how you can consider his criticism valid when he hasn't used the system he's criticizing. That's like saying a book is bad but you have never read it. Or maybe that's just the way I look at it.

You keep saying things, believing saying it makes it true.

Marx DID partake in the system, by being in it, surrounded by it, and observing it from within. You can decide that none of it counts, because you are free to make any kind of decision you want, arbitrary or rational, it's up to you.

Reality, however, doesn't change, and Marx did have insight into society and economics, and he studied it extensively, because that is what a human is able to do.
Your logic makes NO sense. Imagine applying the same to, for example, paleontology. Let's exclude every paleontologist who never met a dinosaur, or worse - let's exclude every paleongologist who is not a dinosaur.
Any analyst, excluded, because they analyze from afar, instead of partaking directly.
Anyone who is not actually a slave, cannot observe slavery or do anything about it.

Only a soldier can observe warfare, nobody else have the slightest right to even think about war or war-related subjects.
Only elephants can administer tranquilizers to other elephants.
Only water can deal with water.

Getting ridiculous yet, I can go on!

Nobody but Earth can live on Earth, like a huge double-blob.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

People are so agonizingly predictable sometimes, and seeing that Illuminati Confirmed is an internet forum boy with no real experience in life, I am VERY inclined to lump him into the self-loathing projecting category, no prospect, no job, no future - "all people with no prospect, no job, no future must die! Because expressing that, convinces everyone that I am all but that!"

Woe is me! I have no real experience in life such as being an autist living off welfare.

I could just as easily ascribe your assumptions of me not having a job, prospect, or future to projection.

The thing is, what some have simply to understand, is that people confuse common sense and decency with leftist opinions. No one. Fucking no one here is seriously in favour of authoritarian communism. But why someone would seriously argue against affordable health care, medication, food and education is beyond me. Buhuhuuu! You born poor? Nuhuu jobs for you? Cry me a river! Yeah, let us see how you feel about it when those people burn your car and burgle in your homes or mug you on the street. Societies simply don't function very well when the common people feel that there is to much injustice, what ever if that is coming from the economy or jurisdiction.
And really, it doesn't matter about what system we're even talking about. Be it governments, democracies, corporations or even dictatorships/monarchies. In systems that actually work, the rulers understood very well that you have to provide a minimum when it comes to the needs of the common people, like trials, fair pricing, a kind of proportionality. This was even true with feudalism. Simply to make sure that your society is stable. And this is important and beneficial for everyone, regardless if you're a rich greedy bastard, a corporate whore, some kind of king or what ever. If only to keep the ruling class in power. When people starve, freeze or otherwise suffer, while a rather small group has a lot, things can become very fast pretty ugly. People that have nothing to lose, but with lots of time and frustration in their mind, are simply fucking dangerous, it doesn't take a lot to push them over the edge. History has proven that time and time again. If they don't have bread, let them eat cake behaviour isn't going to help in that situation.

So the whole argument here is that you have to be nice to the poor in order to avoid getting lynched? Even if their poverty is no fault of your own? How does that even tangentially relate to any notion of morality?

NMA, like anywhere else, has the extreme right to the extreme left. There was a thread a month or two ago about 'leftism in the fallout series' which was a trainwreck. Best not to get into it deeply, no argument on the net has ever changed anyone's mind about politics to any real degree!

How did I manage to miss that?

Don't cut yourself on that edge of yours.

For me it's all about equal opportunity. People have their differences, cultures have their differences, and no two people will ever be entirely equal. It's worth striving for everyone having as big a chance in life, however. And not only because it seems like the right humane thing to do, but becuase it's ultimately what's best for humanity and society. @Crni Vuk brought up a very good point. Besides that, how would we ever find all the true talent in the world when the majority never get a chance to show it? And meanwhile, talentless hacks are born into wealth and power.

Hogwash, when talentless hacks are born into wealth and power, they tend to lose it rather quickly. And when there is a genius amongst the poor, he is almost certain to make himself rich. The reason this happens rarely is because poor people are not that smart, and therefore don't usually have smart children.

 

[zegh8578]

Woe is me! I have no real experience in life such as being an autist living off welfare.

I could just as easily ascribe your assumptions of me not having a job, prospect, or future to projection.

And there's the good little social darwinist.

1. You think I'm ashamed of being autistic?
2. If I'm not, you think I should be?
3. I know you think I don't deserve to live, according to your social darwinist agenda - but would you ever have the balls to tell me that to my face, in real life? I would warn you of course, I'm by no means a pacifistic leftist.

I'm not surprised that you would take a jab like this, because this is who you are, and it is what many of us here are arguing against, fascist scummery. You are still not entirely open and honest about yourself though, a little more a way to go, but you are getting closer!

Spoiler

Sieg Heil!

 

[Izak]

Hey Illuminati, can you tone down the rhetoric? Honestly, everything you say sounds like it's made up of equal parts Atlas Shrugged and Mein Kampf quotations. Can you try to leave "All the leftists are out to hang people that dislike welfare" and "Other races are scientifically worse then mine" at the door? I promise you, if you stop trying to go to extremes people will be more willing to accept some of your opinions.

 

[Vergil]

I can't tell if this is a thread or a cornfield cause there sure are a lot of strawmen in here.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

And there's the good little social darwinist.

1. You think I'm ashamed of being autistic?
2. If I'm not, you think I should be?
3. I know you think I don't deserve to live, according to your social darwinist agenda - but would you ever have the balls to tell me that to my face, in real life? I would warn you of course, I'm by no means a pacifistic leftist.

I'm not surprised that you would take a jab like this, because this is who you are, and it is what many of us here are arguing against, fascist scummery. You are still not entirely open and honest about yourself though, a little more a way to go, but you are getting closer!

Spoiler

Sieg Heil!

So you making assumptions about my life is a-okay, but when I mention something about yours, it's fascist scummery, right?

As for your questions...
1. I don't give a fuck.
2. I don't give a fuck.
3. You don't know shit, pinko. Yes, I'd tell you without any issues what I think of your parasitic ways. Although I'd bet that without the welfare you'd learn pretty darn quick how to be a productive member of society.

Hey Illuminati, can you tone down the rhetoric? Honestly, everything you say sounds like it's made up of equal parts Atlas Shrugged and Mein Kampf quotations. Can you try to leave "All the leftists are out to hang people that dislike welfare" and "Other races are scientifically worse then mine" at the door? I promise you, if you stop trying to go to extremes people will be more willing to accept some of your opinions.

Didn't Crni, a leftist, just say that you have to pamper the poor or they'll initiate violence against you? Who was even talking about race here?

If you want me to renounce my opinions, here's a tip - make a good enough argument against them. Whether or not a bunch of lefties on a video game forum are open to accepting my opinions as valid isn't really at the top of my concerns list.

 

[Izak]

Didn't Crni, a leftist, just say that you have to pamper the poor or they'll initiate violence against you?

Yes, he did, that's been a pattern throughout history. Oppress or allow the majority to stagnate and they won't allow you to stay in power.

Who was even talking about race here?

My post was more about you in general, rather than that specific one.

Whether or not a bunch of lefties on a video game forum are open to accepting my opinions as valid isn't really at the top of my concerns list.

So you're here to piss into the wind then? You come here so that everyone can tell you you're wrong?

If you want me to renounce my opinions, here's a tip - make a good enough argument against them.

Illuminati arguing against you is impossible; I know you like to think you're an open minded person, but you're not, you don't believe in evidence (which is quite funny considering your apparent Objectivism), you can't argue against someone that doesn't believe in anything that doesn't fit in with their ideology.

Spoiler

(For that last paragraph see the threads where he applied an outdated theory to different ethnicities in order to prove black people bred differently from whites and that time he said all the evidence for the holocaust wasn't acceptable because 'Hollywood could have faked it'.)