Opinions on the Elder Scrolls

But Daggerfall is just ridiculous in its size. I think it's a good model how a large open world game could work: Make the map realistically large, add fast travel to known locations (with options for transport and resting and speed) but also allow the player to actually walk/ride everywhere in real time. It may take hours or days to reach the next town, but that's how it is.
Well, it's how I would do a first person Fallout, at least. It would also allow for more vehicles (I know people are very much torn about that, but I think it's ridiculous that there are no working cars around. It's a gameplay thing, not a lore thing) and whole new aspects of the game. Might be too much Mad Max, though...

I really like the idea of smart algorithms that procedurally/pseudorandomly generate content as you walk, but this would be a pretty big hurdle as one would need to somehow merge the random parts of the map with the unique ones seamlessly. It would also make balancing the game kind of hard (provided that you would encounter enemies in the random parts of the world), as if you would just decide to jog to the first town, the time it would take you and the mobs you would kill in that time would make you overpowered by the time you reach the new town. Not to mention a plethora of other issues.

There are walkarounds to all of these problems, but that would entail a very different kind of game design from the way bethesda is operating now, or any other developers who make open world rpg games.
 
I really like the idea of smart algorithms that procedurally/pseudorandomly generate content as you walk, but this would be a pretty big hurdle as one would need to somehow merge the random parts of the map with the unique ones seamlessly. It would also make balancing the game kind of hard (provided that you would encounter enemies in the random parts of the world), as if you would just decide to jog to the first town, the time it would take you and the mobs you would kill in that time would make you overpowered by the time you reach the new town. Not to mention a plethora of other issues.

There are walkarounds to all of these problems, but that would entail a very different kind of game design from the way bethesda is operating now, or any other developers who make open world rpg games.
Well, merging unique and procedural shouldn't be much of an issue, it has been done in Daggerfall as well. You'd start with a basic map with two types of zones, random and unique, add more layers of basic height- and road-maps, general shrubbery and generate the map. Or, since Fallout takes place in a world mostly based on the real world, one could start out with a real map of cities and villages, topography, and roads, add layers for enemy density, shrubbery and so on, and let an algorithm generate the non-unique terrain to fill the world, constricted loosely by the starting topography.
With modern computational power you could probably even make a realistically aged map: Timed forest growth (ok, not really happening in Fallout), erosion, random events that alter the map until the map is finished.
Balancing is of course an issue, but I guess the monster density would be much lower than what you'd see in the usual Bethesda game. The world would be realistically empty, which would probably piss people off, but you're not actually supposed to walk everywhere in real time as you would need hours and days to reach your destination. Depending on luck and and skill you'd get a certain chance of random encounters on your way, just as in Fallout.
Well, I'm not a programmer or game designer so I might be a bit naive, but I don't see a fundamental problem with a concept like that. It's basically just blowing up the ordinary map of a game like New Vegas to realistic proportions and filling the voids with procedurally generated landscape.
Traveling should probably be made realistically hard, then, too. Like, requiring a certain amount of provisions and supply (so a food/water and sleep system would be necessary, or at least water like in Wasteland 2) to travel, restricting the player in the beginning to few locations, making remote locations only accessible by joining a caravan or later getting a car(t) for yourself.
I think the biggest problem is that the world is mostly empty, which will put people off, especially those into the "exploration" of the later Bethesda games. Exploration is much less fun when you don't run into a new interesting ruin every few meters and basically see nothing all the time (which is why Daggerfall had easy fast travel).
 
I still think the merging part is a more difficult problem then the "empty world" one. The difficulty arises from the fact that the generated world would have far less content than the handcrafted one and you would suddenly enter and exit areas full, or completely devoid of unique content and uniquely crafted landscape.

To mitigate both problems i would propose a way that handles the procedural part in a similar way to Diablo 2/Fallout/Wasteland2. Have a bunch of unique, handcrafted dungeons/areas that would have some % of chance to appear if you walk by foot in the procedurally generated space. Some of these dungeons/areas you could only get randomly placed ("dropped") if you are in the right climate zone, vicinity to a particular city etc. When you find such a dungeon, the game would mark it's location and from then on always place it in the same place, so you could come back to the areas that you have discovered. So these handcrafted, unique areas should only be in the procedural space and to fill the world even more you could get a chance to discover special procedurally generated areas that have high quality items, skill upgrades etc. This way you would have the main game and it's quest, but to make walking worthwhile, you also have quests, items and areas from the procedurally generated space.

Fallout has something similar to this, but the random encounters are very small and not fleshed out. I would like to have much more content in those encounters.

I think there is a plethora of interesting game mechanics that would stem from this, but also a plethora of difficult problems for the developers. The gameplay and combat would need to be very solid and fun, so that longer hikes are not snoozefests before you actually find something interesting. And of course making enough interesting content and balancing out the chance to find it is a problem.

Maybe helicopters, dragons, and planes with interesting flight mechanics could help this?
 
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I still think the merging part is a more difficult problem then the "empty world" one. The difficulty arises from the fact that the generated world would have far less content than the handcrafted one and you would suddenly enter and exit areas full, or completely devoid of unique content and uniquely crafted landscape.
I think I didn't quite make myself clear on how to use procedural generation. I'd use procedural generation only for the worldmap, not for dungeons and cities. But yes, of course you'd go from places full of content to places where there is nothing but rocks and cacti. But that's how the real world is, so given a good fast travel system it wouldn't make much difference. That's what I meant with the empty world being a problem for many, because people expect there to be an enemy every five meters and an interesting ruin to explore every 50 m. Given the number of random encounters you usually get in Fallout 1 and 2 that's obviously way too much, so I think it would be interesting to focus on few (but realistically sized) settlements that are realistic distances apart in a first person perspective.
 
I think I didn't quite make myself clear on how to use procedural generation. I'd use procedural generation only for the worldmap, not for dungeons and cities. But yes, of course you'd go from places full of content to places where there is nothing but rocks and cacti. But that's how the real world is, so given a good fast travel system it wouldn't make much difference. That's what I meant with the empty world being a problem for many, because people expect there to be an enemy every five meters and an interesting ruin to explore every 50 m.

You did make it clear, i was talking about the "generated world" not mixing well with the "crafted world", as in these worlds are both a part of the game world.

Given the number of random encounters you usually get in Fallout 1 and 2 that's obviously way too much, so I think it would be interesting to focus on few (but realistically sized) settlements that are realistic distances apart in a first person perspective.

It's way too much if you think of them as happening in real time, but in Fallout map you are not moving in real time. In a huge world i think there should be more (more encounters in real time movement only), the rare ones would be handcrafted and the more often occurring ones would be generated. I would maybe even scale back the world to fit somewhere in between "game like" and "realistic", so that it still feels like it's realistic, but not un-practically big.
 
I have to say, I really really miss sometimes those old gems of PC gaming, and how unique some of them rendered and showed the open world. Like this Magic the Gathering game from 1997. I know that something like that, could probably never be done, as no publisher and developer like Beth would ever give a project like that a greenlight. But gosh. What happend with games that left ... things up to your immagination?
 
I have to say, I really really miss sometimes those old gems of PC gaming, and how unique some of them rendered and showed the open world. Like this Magic the Gathering game from 1997. I know that something like that, could probably never be done, as no publisher and developer like Beth would ever give a project like that a greenlight. But gosh. What happend with games that left ... things up to your immagination?

Speaking about interesting mechanics in open world games... Gothic 1 is the only game i can recall that had rivers with current that affected your swimming.
 
Morrowind is up there as one of the greats for me. Vivid, interesting world. Good roleplaying, good character development system and good choice and concequence.

Oblivion was bland, boring shit. Could barely finish the main story.

I actually liked Skyrim. I thought it was a fun, dumb open world action game (Not an RPG by about a thousand miles) and when you modded the shit out of it, it became an actually really fun immersive exploration game.
 
I have to say, I really really miss sometimes those old gems of PC gaming, and how unique some of them rendered and showed the open world. Like this Magic the Gathering game from 1997. I know that something like that, could probably never be done, as no publisher and developer like Beth would ever give a project like that a greenlight. But gosh. What happend with games that left ... things up to your immagination?
I remember playing that game with some friends in the late 90's, I still have a copy of it and the manalink expansion in a CD somewhere. I have been waiting for another MtG game like that ever since, but all we get is just deck vs deck tabletop simulators where we only have a deck and battle other decks and that is it. :-(
 
Morrowind is without a doubt a great game, and one I wish had been done as an isometric RPG so the animations and characters wouldn't feel so dated. Oblivion and Skyrim I've had a lot of fun with but the RPG evisceration is clearly there and doesn't seem to be stopping. I have maybe 10 mods in Morrowind i have 180 in Skyrim, I still have fun with Skyrim, but it's the modding community way more than the base game.
 
I haven't played Arena or Daggerfall but Morrowind will always be one of my favorite games of all time. Mmph I love Morrowind so much. The fact that it was probably one of the first games that allowed you to kill everyone including main quest NPCs made it so refreshing. Even if you killed people essential to the main quest, you could still finish the main quest through a secret back door. It was genius, and I don't understand why Bethesda has essentially gone backwards from this design philosophy. They started with making quite literally everyone killable, including actual gods, and now in their games you can't shoot the random doctor who runs a small clinic and isn't even associated with a mission, because, "game design"?

Not to mention Morrowind actually had choices and consequences with its missions. One of my favorites comes from the expansion Mournhold, wherein you come across a group of terrorists who think they're going to help the kingdom by killing prominent figures, and you can either help them, partially help them and kill them, report them to the authorities right away, convince 2 of the 3 members to kill the ringleader, and so forth. It's great. ( http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tribunal:The_Warlords )

Oblivion almost bores me to tears, but I find Skyrim fairly enjoyable. Won't go into detail on that because I made a whole forum post about it just this week.
 
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It was genius, and I don't understand why Bethesda has essentially gone backwards from this design philosophy. They started with making quite literally everyone killable, including actual gods, and now in their games you can't shoot the random doctor who runs a small clinic and isn't even associated with a mission, because, "game design"?

Tracking variables. If you have 8 killable chars dependent on the main quest, every one of them has to have at least two branches connected to their part of the main quest. So instead of the 8 simple branches, now you have at least 16 to worry about. The more you deviate from a simple narrative, the harder it becomes to control the enviroment (more potential bugs etc). I just don't think it would be smart for a developer as untalanted as bethesda to tamper with game mechanics intended for grown ups, it would most likely lead to a disaster.
 
I just don't think it would be smart for a developer as untalanted as bethesda to tamper with game mechanics intended for grown ups, it would most likely lead to a disaster.

You do realize Bethesda's the one who made Morrowind right? That's the thing, they started out like this. Clearly at one point they were smart enough to be able to make a plot line like this, that's why it doesn't make sense how they went backwards.
 
You do realize Bethesda's the one who made Morrowind right? That's the thing, they started out like this. Clearly at one point they were smart enough to be able to make a plot line like this, that's why it doesn't make sense how they went backwards.

The same people who promised radiant A.I and then had to tone it down to un-radiant because it was too difficult for them?
 
The same people who promised radiant A.I and then had to tone it down to un-radiant because it was too difficult for them?

They promised all radiant AI for OBLIVION, but that has nothing to do with Morrowind. Morrowind was a very smart game. But as others have said after my post, apparently it was because all the talented writers were fired/quit soon after Morrowind was released, for whatever reason.
 
They promised all radiant AI for OBLIVION, but that has nothing to do with Morrowind. Morrowind was a very smart game. But as others have said after my post, apparently it was because all the talented writers were fired/quit soon after Morrowind was released, for whatever reason.

I know some people left the company, just how many and how important i'm not sure, but i don't need to know that, because they clearly tried for oblivion and failed at managing a difficult game mechanic regardless. So they (bethesda) are being realistic with their expectations of what they can accomplish.
 
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