OXM article excerpts

[nobuo]

It doesn't have the feel of a simple mind change. It has the feel of a core belief system that shouldn't exist in a Brotherhood Senior Paladin. He's giving the finger to his superior officers, sacrificing his life for other people, and forgoing the objective to go after the technology there. That's not even remotely close to how the BoS in FO1/2 would act/did act, and it's light-years away from canon.

 

[Ravager69]

No? In my opinion it fits very well.

For example - why would the Vault Dweller give a shit about the Vault in the first place? He could just settle in Some Small Town and forget about the whole thing. But instead he chose to save his people and play the hero. What did he get in exchange? A big butt-fuck and a "get the hell out of here". I suppose the same can be done with this BoS guy. He chose to play the saviour of the wastes and dies a horrible death\is turned into a super mutant\fails miserably and chooses to become a raider or succeeds at some measure, but after returning to BoS's HQ he gets sentenced to death for disobeying orders. Besides, other than this one desciption we know nothing specific about the BoS's role in FO3 or the way they act, so it's a bit far-fetched to make such assumptions. It's not a major part of the game, so it can be adjusted over time.

 

[Mord_Sith]

Even if elder Lyons broke off, the rest of the paladins would have continued, he'd be considered treasonous by the rest of the BoS members and do you know what they do to soldiers, even Generals, who are proven to be treasonous?

They shoot them, painfully, they don't rally behind him for the good of the world, his decision goes against EVERYTHING that the BoS Paladins are taught from birth about their duty.

A paladin like that would have been put as the door guard / greeter outside the bunker rather than an elder, his views are far to humanitarian to lead a military organization properly.

 

[Soulforged]

That's jumping to a lot of conclusions as well Soulforged, although not negative solutions it's still jumping to them without having all the information.

Sure, but in my opinion it's more plausible for a company who wants to sell a new iteration of an already existent IP to do what I said.

What has been seen in the past as to the 'Bethizing' of other game franchises, especially one so much on the fringe as Fallout in terms of morality and uniqueness, has not been pretty.

To tell you the truth I have not seen much, of what I've seen the only thing I particulary don't like so far is the focus on action. In fact that's the major dessappointment I could ever have gotten.

From what I have seen and heard we have the Bethsoft crew treating the old fans like they're lepers, we have the game with orange supermutants that just look like angry orcs with trash cans attached to their gut to make them look like they might be trying to protect themselves, and a loving and caring BoS.

The fact that Emil, the lead designer, is communicating through Q&A with the fans says otherwise.

Even if elder Lyons broke off, the rest of the paladins would have continued, he'd be considered treasonous by the rest of the BoS members and do you know what they do to soldiers, even Generals, who are proven to be treasonous?

Throughout history there has been many persons who alone started to gather support and "moved mountains", starting from Jesus up to Martin Luther King. The mechanism that gave him such support is so far undisclosed fully, let's just hope it's not lame.

They shoot them, painfully, they don't rally behind him for the good of the world, his decision goes against EVERYTHING that the BoS Paladins are taught from birth about their duty.

Have in mind that the process could take up to decades to complete, is not just a click.

A paladin like that would have been put as the door guard / greeter outside the bunker rather than an elder, his views are far to humanitarian to lead a military organization properly.

The thing is he didn't start with that mind set, he allegedly changed later.

 

[Morbus]

Morbus: it's not?

Of course not. We also have all the interviews and the demo and the previews and stuff... That's all valuable info in understanding how the BOS is handled.

 

[4too]

BOS: DC or Bust

BOS: DC or Bust




At this moment I will remind this thread's participants of the BOS: DC or Bust writing contest.
Right now, as we live and breathe the literary candidates are being:

coyly / ruthlessly -- coddled / culled

for

love / money --- to be coined in the high definition representational magic of *Defonten*.

Soon will be released scores of variations on the theme: BOS DC!

Circle your conceptual wagons, protect your hard won syntax and 'elements of style',
a whirl wind of rude, crude, and grammatically profane fan art are destined to be unleashed
for your personal perusal and FO edification.

Thanks for reading, now back to the warp and woof of ... of our web existence ...


4too

 

[Seymour the spore plant]

The fact that Emil, the lead designer, is communicating through Q&A with the fans says otherwise

You know, I really don't think it does. Communicating with the fans in their own forums is basically a categorical imperative; they SHOULD do it, period, and anything less (kinda like the silent treatment up to now) is simply a shitty policy. As far as Bethesda's treatment of the "hardcore" fan base is concerned, excluding and even blacklisting fan sites such as NMA and the Codex and all but making dissent a bannable offense in their forums is pretty much the leper treatment.

As for the whole BoS, Feral Ghouls, Super Orc Mutants and such, yes, Bethesda obviously can do whatever they please to the franchise and still come up with an explanation for it. The point is, every time they contradict canon directly (and that has been their rule of thumb), whatever reason for that WILL feel like shoehorning. Kinda like those damn midichlorians in Star Wars. Hell, Fallout 3 is shaping up quite like the new trilogy in a lot of aspects

 

[Moving Target]

Throughout history there has been many persons who alone started to gather support and "moved mountains", starting from Jesus up to Martin Luther King. The mechanism that gave him such support is so far undisclosed fully, let's just hope it's not lame.

Yea, but.... how many of these mountain-movin' men have been military? And military men who went contrary to EVERY level of the chain of command? I'd venture a guess: few to none... with some exceptions made for a military that had a coequal role in a nation's power structure, but which thought of the ruling civilian government as decadent, weak, or just plain wrong.

Which still doesn't explain why a well-trained soldier would suddenly get the bright idea to trek way the fuck across the country, through an area that BY CANNON was full of gigantic radioactive twisters, all because maybe, juuuuust maybe, there might be more pre-war tech. Because it's not like they had enough for themselves by the time FO3 is supposed to take place, amirite?

Further, your explanation also is insufficient to explain why, if this group theoretically made it across the wastes, they would then abandon the mission they'd spend years planning to accomplish, and instead decide to help some random people.

It adds up on absolutely no level.

They shoot them, painfully, they don't rally behind him for the good of the world, his decision goes against EVERYTHING that the BoS Paladins are taught from birth about their duty.

Have in mind that the process could take up to decades to complete, is not just a click.

Sure, the process of getting to DC could take decades, but that's not Mord's point. His point is that it makes no sense for a mutineer (and that's what the BoS would think this person was, in this case) to manage to somehow get away from the BoS in the first place. Especially if this group kept their power armor. You'd have a full-on hunt in that case....because, just in case you forgot, it took a LOT of effort for any BoS member to get the power armor, and they knew that the ONLY PEOPLE in the wastes who knew how to upkeep the armor was the BoS. Which just adds another level of implausability to a defection.

 

[Mord_Sith]

Not the only people, but most of the people who had the tools, materials, and knowledge to upkeep them were the BoS.

Not to mention that they had the schematics for the armor at their disposal.

From what I have seen and heard we have the Bethsoft crew treating the old fans like they're lepers, we have the game with orange supermutants that just look like angry orcs with trash cans attached to their gut to make them look like they might be trying to protect themselves, and a loving and caring BoS.

The fact that Emil, the lead designer, is communicating through Q&A with the fans says otherwise.

That is extremely recent damage control, fan communication requires at least to listen once in a while, interact with the fans on a positive level, criticism or celebration should both be met with the same positive attitude, or at least the criticism that has thought to it, not the "Hur Hur Hur your game's gonna suck just 'cuz Hur Hur Hur" net trolls, but those that actually make a lick of sense and have a reason.

The deviations from canon should be generally explained, not hushed behind closed doors because they fear a riot. (Generally meaning that they're changing it for story purposes or for esthetic purposes, or whatnot, not actually give away anything in the game)

For example, Starcraft, the Dragoons are gone, replaced with something else, why, because the protoss lost the blueprints for the Dragoon pattern.

Why are Supermutants orange?

Immersion (I feel dirty saying that word now...)

Even if elder Lyons broke off, the rest of the paladins would have continued, he'd be considered treasonous by the rest of the BoS members and do you know what they do to soldiers, even Generals, who are proven to be treasonous?

Throughout history there has been many persons who alone started to gather support and "moved mountains", starting from Jesus up to Martin Luther King. The mechanism that gave him such support is so far undisclosed fully, let's just hope it's not lame.

Do you have an example that DOESN'T include religion, because I hate to break it to you, but the BoS religion focuses around technology and a Commune mentality where they look out for their own.

They shoot them, painfully, they don't rally behind him for the good of the world, his decision goes against EVERYTHING that the BoS Paladins are taught from birth about their duty.

Have in mind that the process could take up to decades to complete, is not just a click.

My point exactly, he would be questioning his environment at an early age, and questioning their xenophobic ways, makes him a perfect door greeter because he won't shirk away from outside contact.

A paladin like that would have been put as the door guard / greeter outside the bunker rather than an elder, his views are far to humanitarian to lead a military organization properly.

The thing is he didn't start with that mind set, he allegedly changed later.

You validate my earlier point quite well here, thank you.

 

[Brother None]

But by saying that the Brotherhood of Steel cannot have people change their mind or stray from their once primary objective is crazy. People change their minds all the time. Maybe these Brotherhood members in Washington caught the politician virus and decided to change their mind on important issues every couple weeks.

Yes, people change their mind all the time.

Now imagine if someone made Lord of the Rings IV, in which suddenly the orcs decided to become good guys and frollick in the fields with the hobbits.

What's that? Wouldn't work?

No duh it wouldn't.

The "people change their mind logic" doesn't apply to organizations in series like this. Organizations can develop and change, but they serve a certain role in the pattern the game series has set up. The Brotherhood served as a xenophobic technocratic insular society. In Van Buren, it became more involved in world politics by waging war with the NCR. And that's fine, because that fits the establish behavioural pattern, it's a logical extension of the BoS' philosophy.

See, the story here isn't a psychological or logical one, it's not as if the BoS could never change or should never be changed at all.
It's a narrative one.

Fallout 3 moved the narrative location several hundred miles from one location to the next. Then Bethesda wanted to have a narrative including some good guys. For the role of these good guys, they decided to move an organization that was previously bound to the other coast cross-continent where they turned into good-two-shoes.

It's not that it can't happen, the problem is that narratively speaking, this is Disaster Area:
- They moved the group cross-continent. This is inconsistency in location.
- They then made the group change their modus operandi. This is inconsistent with the "leitmotif".

You could ask too many questions here. Why move the organization cross-continent if you don't need that kind of organization in your game? Why change the organization's philosophy if you geographically moved away from the organization anyway?

Neither question has any proper answer.

And that, as they say, is a different pair of shoes. Seriously, this is horrible, narratively-speaking. Change of location? Sure. Change of philosophy? Perhaps. Change of location and philosophy? Completely and utterly unnecessary.

The fact that Emil, the lead designer, is communicating through Q&A with the fans says otherwise.

Oh yes, because it's not like he's avoiding this place like the plague, not like several of our more prominent members either don't go there or are banned from there, and it's not like he's not actually discussing any game elements, only peripheral matters. Hmmm?

That said, it certainly is a good thing. It only took us 2 years of asking for more fan interaction for the lead designer to bother posting on his own forum.

It's certainly a good thing, but honestly, I'm not all that impressed.

Of course not. We also have all the interviews and the demo and the previews and stuff... That's all valuable info in understanding how the BOS is handled.

I don't think they revealed much that wasn't in the profile.

 

[PlanHex]

Throughout history there has been many persons who alone started to gather support and "moved mountains", starting from Jesus up to Martin Luther King. The mechanism that gave him such support is so far undisclosed fully, let's just hope it's not lame.

Do you have an example that DOESN'T include religion, because I hate to break it to you, but the BoS religion focuses around technology and a Commune mentality where they look out for their own.

First off, he said Martin Luther King, not Martin Luther.
Secondly, if he HAD said Martin Luther as you seem to think, your reaction wouldn't make any sense. Martin Luther basically rebelled against the church's complete dominance of the interpretation of the bible by translating it from Latin into the more accessible German. (He did some other stuff too but I'm fuzzy on the details and it's 5 in the morning). Alot of people kinda liked that and Protestantism eventually became pretty widespread. The fact that pretty much all the priests were dicks helped too.

History lesson over, back to the future:
We have Lyons trying to protect and help the unwashed masses, while giving his old masters the finger and people around him think that's not all that bad of an idea. Also, the real BoS and those Outcast people are being total dicks.
(What the fuck is the deal with the 'Outcasts' anyway? Lyon's group should be called The Outcasts for this to make any sense. If I decided to secede from Denmark, I wouldn't call my new plot of land Denmark, I'd call it Awesometopia or something.)

I'm sure this isn't what Bethesda was thinking while they cooked this up though. I fully expect that the "mechanism that gave him such support" is lame as hell, unless they call him a 'modern day Martin Luther', which would mean they read this post and thought 'Why don't we just say that and then people won't think we slept through school' - in which case I will commit suicide by excessive facepalming.

 

[Wooz]

First off, he said Martin Luther King, not Martin Luther.

He also said Jesus. Zing.

That said, you completely missed his point, rambling on a 'history lesson' while that's not really what he was saying. We appreciate your valuable historical expertise, but stick to the point at hand:

The BOS doesn't have a Jesus, Martin Luther King or Martin Luther figure OR mentality/modus operandi. Their 'religion' is technocratic, autocentric and isolationist. They don't spread the word to the unwashed masses, they simply don't care.

As for Lyons going AWOL with valuable equipment, he'd be hunted down.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

No? In my opinion it fits very well.

For example - why would the Vault Dweller give a shit about the Vault in the first place? He could just settle in Some Small Town and forget about the whole thing. But instead he chose to save his people and play the hero. What did he get in exchange? A big butt-fuck and a "get the hell out of here". I suppose the same can be done with this BoS guy. He chose to play the saviour of the wastes and dies a horrible death\is turned into a super mutant\fails miserably and chooses to become a raider or succeeds at some measure, but after returning to BoS's HQ he gets sentenced to death for disobeying orders. Besides, other than this one desciption we know nothing specific about the BoS's role in FO3 or the way they act, so it's a bit far-fetched to make such assumptions.

There's a big difference between someone from an isolated society choosing to save the only home and (extended) family they've ever known. And someone from an isolationist society choosing to abandon their home and family to save a bunch of strangers.

It's not a major part of the game, so it can be adjusted over time.

Do we know that for sure? Seems to be a major part of what's being previewed. Sure the Brotherhood is a iconic part of Fallout but only to those who have heard of Fallout.

 

[Soulforged]

You know, I really don't think it does. Communicating with the fans in their own forums is basically a categorical imperative; they SHOULD do it, period, and anything less (kinda like the silent treatment up to now) is simply a shitty policy. As far as Bethesda's treatment of the "hardcore" fan base is concerned, excluding and even blacklisting fan sites such as NMA and the Codex and all but making dissent a bannable offense in their forums is pretty much the leper treatment.

Even if it was a "categorical imperative" it still doesn't establish a SHOULD BE relationship. From where does this imperative come? As for the past, I'm aware of their treatment, and I agree, but I think that the present might be different.

As for the whole BoS, Feral Ghouls, Super Orc Mutants and such, yes, Bethesda obviously can do whatever they please to the franchise and still come up with an explanation for it. The point is, every time they contradict canon directly (and that has been their rule of thumb), whatever reason for that WILL feel like shoehorning. Kinda like those damn midichlorians in Star Wars. Hell, Fallout 3 is shaping up quite like the new trilogy in a lot of aspects

In my opinion not everything could be explained, for now there's many things without explanation, and the long travel through the No-man's-land (for example) will be very hard to explain, almost impossible on the context of things.

Yea, but.... how many of these mountain-movin' men have been military? And military men who went contrary to EVERY level of the chain of command? I'd venture a guess: few to none... with some exceptions made for a military that had a coequal role in a nation's power structure, but which thought of the ruling civilian government as decadent, weak, or just plain wrong.

There's, however, a certain factor you're not considering, besides the fact that the BoS isn't an exclusively military organization, this section of the order has been split physically for decades (or A decade, who knows) now from their main group, they've been living almost in different continents dealing with different issues. In history this hardly ever happened, and if it did there was some form of relatively quick communication with the main group to allow a controlling back and forward between both groups. Here there's no such thing. Groups of man that live isolated tend to structure themselves in an original way. After he obtained this secret artifact beneath the Pentagon and he was granted the rank of elder he could certainly move the group under his control (or a part of it, as has been stated in fact) on another direction. Man rule over man...

Which still doesn't explain why a well-trained soldier would suddenly get the bright idea to trek way the fuck across the country, through an area that BY CANNON was full of gigantic radioactive twisters, all because maybe, juuuuust maybe, there might be more pre-war tech. Because it's not like they had enough for themselves by the time FO3 is supposed to take place, amirite?

Agreed. If you read my post above you'll notice other many things without explanation, and which I doubt will receive any in the near future. These are not my original thoughts however (the part of the lack of communication) I spotted that a the Codex and thought it was spot on.

Further, your explanation also is insufficient to explain why, if this group theoretically made it across the wastes, they would then abandon the mission they'd spend years planning to accomplish, and instead decide to help some random people.

They didn't abandon the mission, they found the artifact they were looking for and the mutants... Unless you say after that, when in fact the missions are set by the elder in charge, i.e. Lyons.

That is extremely recent damage control, fan communication requires at least to listen once in a while, interact with the fans on a positive level, criticism or celebration should both be met with the same positive attitude, or at least the criticism that has thought to it, not the "Hur Hur Hur your game's gonna suck just '{Beats me likes a baby seal "cuz" I am STOOPID!} Hur Hur Hur" net trolls, but those that actually make a lick of sense and have a reason.

I agree, but the fact that it's recent does not invalidate my comment.

The deviations from canon should be generally explained, not hushed behind closed doors because they fear a riot. (Generally meaning that they're changing it for story purposes or for esthetic purposes, or whatnot, not actually give away anything in the game)

I did said they've to be explained. Bethesda launched the bomb now is up to them to explain why... I'm not overly exiceted in general so I don't tend to make rushed claims. I'll just wait to see how much lame can be that explanation.

Do you have an example that DOESN'T include religion, because I hate to break it to you, but the BoS religion focuses around technology and a Commune mentality where they look out for their own.

The other poster implies that BoS is a military centered organization (unless I misunderstood him), here I've you telling me it's a religious organization... Whatever, Martin Luther King as noted by a previous poster, was a religious man, but his moevement was not religious, in the sense that their objectives were more oriented to change social organization.

My point exactly, he would be questioning his environment at an early age, and questioning their xenophobic ways, makes him a perfect door greeter because he won't shirk away from outside contact.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but my point was exactly the opposite, he started questioning the mindset NOT in an earlier age. And this:

You validate my earlier point quite well here, thank you.

How so?

It's certainly a good thing, but honestly, I'm not all that impressed.

Point taken...

The BOS doesn't have a Jesus, Martin Luther King or Martin Luther figure OR mentality/modus operandi. Their 'religion' is technocratic, autocentric and isolationist. They don't spread the word to the unwashed masses, they simply don't care.

Surely "doesn't have" does not equate to cannot have. But I'm not talking about an specific mentality here, just about a contradictory mindset which begs for conflict.

As for Lyons going AWOL with valuable equipment, he'd be hunted down.

Sure, except that he is the elder in the East, they've been separeted from the main order for decades and that they're separated for thousands of miles. I don't think anyone will bother on hunting him down.

 

[Wooz]

Surely "doesn't have" does not equate to cannot have. But I'm not talking about an specific mentality here, just about a contradictory mindset which begs for conflict.

Sure, in the same way Star Wars' Galactic Empire could have rogue Stromtroopers break out and found a hippy commune. That doesn't make the idea any less ridiculous.

 

[Mord_Sith]

That is extremely recent damage control, fan communication requires at least to listen once in a while, interact with the fans on a positive level, criticism or celebration should both be met with the same positive attitude, or at least the criticism that has thought to it, not the "Hur Hur Hur your game's gonna suck just cuz Hur Hur Hur" net trolls, but those that actually make a lick of sense and have a reason.

I agree, but the fact that it's recent does not invalidate my comment.

Well if you look below you'll see the examples I made (that you neglected to put in mind you) that compared the fan interaction between Blizzard & their fans versus Bethsoft & Fallout Fans, this here is not fan interaction, it's damage control, it's trying to placate the cries of woe because they've grown since the magazine, and by doing that they answer some questions so we have less to woe on (in theory.)

For example, Starcraft, the Dragoons are gone, replaced with something else, why, because the protoss lost the blueprints for the Dragoon pattern.

Why are Supermutants orange?

Immersion (I feel dirty saying that word now...)

The deviations from canon should be generally explained, not hushed behind closed doors because they fear a riot. (Generally meaning that they're changing it for story purposes or for esthetic purposes, or whatnot, not actually give away anything in the game)

I did said they've to be explained. Bethesda launched the bomb now is up to them to explain why... I'm not overly exiceted in general so I don't tend to make rushed claims. I'll just wait to see how much lame can be that explanation.

True enough.

Do you have an example that DOESN'T include religion, because I hate to break it to you, but the BoS religion focuses around technology and a Commune mentality where they look out for their own.

The other poster implies that BoS is a military centered organization (unless I misunderstood him), here I've you telling me it's a religious organization... Whatever, Martin Luther King as noted by a previous poster, was a religious man, but his moevement was not religious, in the sense that their objectives were more oriented to change social organization.

The BoS are technocratic, in a weak sense they praise technology and horde it, that's what Bethsoft is trying to play on for their reason as to why the BoS is in DC. However they're also Commune minded, Xenophobic is another word, anything born / created outside the bunker is not one of the BoS and as such does not deserve the technology of the BoS.

Hell in the first game they send you to a nuclear hotspot to just get rid of you, the proverbial impossible challenge (which isn't that impossible, just gotta have a lot of pre-war meds to keep you intact) that is used to get rid of hopefuls.

They don't like outsiders, they don't tolerate outsiders, hell the only thing stopping them from shooting outsiders on sight is that they need merchants to come and trade with them, that's what the greeter's for.

My point exactly, he would be questioning his environment at an early age, and questioning their xenophobic ways, makes him a perfect door greeter because he won't shirk away from outside contact.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but my point was exactly the opposite, he started questioning the mindset NOT in an earlier age. And this:

You validate my earlier point quite well here, thank you.

How so?

I hate to be a wet blanket, but if someone is predisposed towards something, it's going to manifest at an early age, not snap into place in old age where they're stuck in their ways.

You know the phrase "you can't teach an old dog new tricks"? That is pretty much my point, he would have shown tendencies to being less xenophobic than his brethren and likely been put up as a door greeter simply because he can tolerate the outsiders.

He'd have to start showing sympathy by age 25, otherwise he'd be stuck in such a rut, it would take a brainwashing to clear out things that are grilled into him since birth. How old do you think an elder is? I would hazard to guess around 35-50, battle grizzled veterans that have outgrew the fighting and now use their knowledge to put together strategies and share their wisdom rather than go out onto the field with mini-gun in hand.

As for the validation of my point, I'm going to have to re-build it:

They shoot them, painfully, they don't rally behind him for the good of the world, his decision goes against EVERYTHING that the BoS Paladins are taught from birth about their duty.

A paladin like that would have been put as the door guard / greeter outside the bunker rather than an elder, his views are far to humanitarian to lead a military organization properly.

Now your comments:

Have in mind that the process could take up to decades to complete, is not just a click.

The thing is he didn't start with that mind set, he allegedly changed later.

My point is that early on he would have shown signs of being humanitarian, as well as probably an insubordinate streak, leading me to believe that he would never have made it to elder status, he would be plopped in front of the door and left to chat it up with the merchants and hopefuls.

Remember, disagreement doesn't mean insubordination all the time, only in the grunts, however to completely abandon the teachings of the elders and take a less xenophobic view of the world, the BoS had to be FORCED to deal with you in the game after you took their challenge and beat it, they don't like you, they tolerate your presence because you had proven yourself worthy.

 

[Seymour the spore plant]

Even if it was a "categorical imperative" it still doesn't establish a SHOULD BE relationship. From where does this imperative come?

Actually, the very definition of a categorical imperative is that something should be, just because, period. From wikipedia: "A categorical imperative would denote an absolute, unconditional requirement that exerts its authority in all circumstances, both required and justified as an end in itself". From where does it come, you ask? In this case, from right out of my ass .
It was just a figure of speech, what I meant was that in this day and age, fan/developer interaction has been made so accessible that at least some semblance of it should always be present (like Blizzard is doing, for instance). In Beth's case it was even more necessary, with them having said over and over that they were listening to fans and whatever, yet only forum moderators and Gstaff ever spoke out.

In my opinion not everything could be explained, for now there's many things without explanation, and the long travel through the No-man's-land (for example) will be very hard to explain, almost impossible on the context of things.

Very hard indeed, and that was precisely my point. Any explanation given to something that does not fit within the setting will look like a stretch, put there only to justify some moronic previous decision from Bethesda, like the BoS being all flowers and puppies and LOLZ NUKULAR CATAPULT. Where we disagree is that I do not think it to be below them to do major and even ridiculous changes to the setting this way, which of course would allow for any explanation.

 

[Soulforged]

Sure, in the same way Star Wars' Galactic Empire could have rogue Stromtroopers break out and found a hippy commune. That doesn't make the idea any less ridiculous.

I believe the idea of the travel is ridiculous, the idea of the artifact is laughable... However I don't think the idea of such deviation is ridiculous taking it in abstract. Put in context I think that both elements determine logically why Lyons changes his mind and the people who follow him. So the context and the setting for BoS in the East is, I agree, ridiculous, but not the splinter cell especifically.

Well if you look below you'll see the examples I made (that you neglected to put in mind you) that compared the fan interaction between Blizzard & their fans versus Bethsoft & Fallout Fans, this here is not fan interaction, it's damage control, it's trying to placate the cries of woe because they've grown since the magazine, and by doing that they answer some questions so we have less to woe on (in theory.)

I know the example but I didn't consider it because a duck is always a duck, and you're trying to call a duck a swan (or something uglier) in this opportunity. They don't have to placate anything, if they want to sell they'll lose the fanbase with or with without damage control because what matters is the final product, they don't give a shit if "woe is you or woe is me". Also if that was the only purpose then why send the lead designer to do this? Why not one of the developers? I believe that Emil has an strong case on his behalf for the lack of interaction: four children plus being lead designer of such a controversial game equals lots of job.

The BoS are technocratic, in a weak sense they praise technology and horde it, that's what Bethsoft is trying to play on for their reason as to why the BoS is in DC. However they're also Commune minded, Xenophobic is another word, anything born / created outside the bunker is not one of the BoS and as such does not deserve the technology of the BoS.

OK I assume you didn't want to discuss anything here. That much has been established and I read the profile... and I must say I didn't agree with Emil on his view of what praising techlogy is.

I hate to be a wet blanket, but if someone is predisposed towards something, it's going to manifest at an early age, not snap into place in old age where they're stuck in their ways.

The key word in your post is predisposed I never implied any predisposition. Even if there was such a thing growing inside a Lyons he could have kept it hidden until much older.

He'd have to start showing sympathy by age 25, otherwise he'd be stuck in such a rut, it would take a brainwashing to clear out things that are grilled into him since birth. How old do you think an elder is? I would hazard to guess around 35-50, battle grizzled veterans that have outgrew the fighting and now use their knowledge to put together strategies and share their wisdom rather than go out onto the field with mini-gun in hand.

Even hardened people change, sometimes it takes very little to destroy the foundations of their faith. Some crumble, others become fanatic and others simply adapt to what they see now as reason. What will be really implausible is a whole group changing mindset, unless there's an unique motivation to stimulate such change.

My point is that early on he would have shown signs of being humanitarian, as well as probably an insubordinate streak, leading me to believe that he would never have made it to elder status, he would be plopped in front of the door and left to chat it up with the merchants and hopefuls.

He could have shown tendencies, true, we don't know, I'm just assuming as you're. The explanation as to why he changed is so far undisclosed. Maybe, just maybe, they let that slip through the crack in the profile to see the reaction and adjust as necessary (I'd have done that). In that case, you'll be right and it will be implausible.

EDIT: Spelling and added this:

Actually, the very definition of a categorical imperative is that something should be, just because, period. From wikipedia: "A categorical imperative would denote an absolute, unconditional requirement that exerts its authority in all circumstances, both required and justified as an end in itself". From where does it come, you ask? In this case, from right out of my ass

I meant it in the sense that the categorical imperative didn't have any source.

Very hard indeed, and that was precisely my point. Any explanation given to something that does not fit within the setting will look like a stretch, put there only to justify some moronic previous decision from Bethesda, like the BoS being all flowers and puppies and LOLZ NUKULAR CATAPULT. Where we disagree is that I do not think it to be below them to do major and even ridiculous changes to the setting this way, which of course would allow for any explanation.

I'll be dense here and state that I really don't believe their version of the BoS East would be "all flowers and puppies", being caritative is not idealization. But of course that doesn't mean that they can still idealize it in the final version.

 

[Mord_Sith]

Well personally, I don't think that the other paladins would rally around Lyons unless the BoS abandoned them, for example sent them away to find the proverbial golden toilet plunger.

If they were just a bunch of rogue paladins I would stomach it a whole lot easier, about 6 original BoS members tops, with recruits.

If/when they get there, they find that the technology is useless and/or nonexistent and when they realize this they figure out that they've been sent on a wild goose chase across the continent and drop the BoS entirely.

If they were 'pruning' rogue elements I could understand it, but not more than a handful of BoS paladins at most, the rest would be conscripts in whatever they could scrounge up.

Again they would not 'prune' an elder, the elders are the ones that lead the BoS, they would quietly dispose of him as an 'old age' scenario if that were the case.

Assuming that they started with 8, they would easily loose 2 paladins over the trek however I would be more inclined to believe the loss of 5.

They certainly wouldn't call themselves BoS though, they'd probably change their name to something else entirely to symbolize their abandonment of the beliefs of the BoS.

 

[PlanHex]

you completely missed his point

Tru dat. I just re-read it and wondered what the hell I was thinking.
In my defense, it was 5 am and I had had too much coffee.