PC Gamer UK on NMA and AoD

[VDweller]

...folks like Roshambo (a pathetic human being to say the least)
...
Roshambo was mostly an idiot with some of the most pathetic posts ever committed to record on the internet...

Based on what?

You know, Brother None, it's none of my business, but perhaps you should hold people accountable when they make posts like these ones. Like it or not, Roshambo was a big part of NMA and he deserves some respect.

I'd humbly suggest either asking that fella to support his opinion of Rosh with some arguments or throw his dumb ass out.

 

[Silencer]

It's just his opinion, which makes him sound like the asstard troll he is, VDweller. Actually, the less drivel I hear from him, the better, much less would I ask for it.

Besides, I believe he's goten a strike just. Might not last long.

nothingtoseehere

But thanks for the suggestion.

 

[urikireOCS]

Re: the weigh in lasted 2 secs - world record!!!

English, please?

I'll


try Engrish since my English no work. A common stance on the subject of Fallout many take is telling someone else what it's supposed to mean to them. Playing a game is subjective, much like watching a movie or reading a book. I've come across people who wont even consider the Fallout Bibles canon since it conflicts what they believe to be 'fallouty'. When someone is that haughty, it's time to hang up the cleats, but that'll happen when Van Buren is made. I wonder if the old devs get a kick out of the years of debating and waxing of those of us who weren't at the meeting when Fallout 1 and 2 were being thought of or involved in the beginning to end process in the slightest. Bethesda bought the rights. Don't they have the option to go 'their own way' as you or I or a number of others would do in a 'what if I had the rights' situation? All I was doing with my 'asking' statement was brain picking to see what would be so bloody-cool-die hard fan-accepting to put in Fallout 3 your vers.

I dunno what you mean by 'pussycats' SpeaK. I've seen some p!55 and vinegar word matches around here that could be filed under the 'if words could kill' banner.

 

[Per]

Again, I believe the person I referencing was Alec or Alex.

Ha ha ha! Alec is now successfully alecking the entire Internet! There should be some kind of a medal for that.

Morbus, there is only one cat here. And that's ME!

Only a cat of a different coat, that's all the truth I know.

 

[Ausir]

I've come across people who wont even consider the Fallout Bibles canon since it conflicts what they believe to be 'fallouty'.

Well, Chris Avellone did some great work on the Fallout Bible, but also made numerous mistakes.

 

[Sorrow]

Re: the weigh in lasted 2 secs - world record!!!

I've come across people who wont even consider the Fallout Bibles canon since it conflicts what they believe to be 'fallouty'.

Actually, the Bible has some of things there are a guesswork and ideas of people who hadn't worked on Fallout 1.
Not to mention that MCA repeatedly identified Vault Boy as a Pip Boy...

As for VB - I've seen some weird things like changing calibers of weapons - for example there was a .223 Minigun, which doesn't make sense.
Miniguns in Fallout were 5mm and 5mm ammo is 2 times lighter than .223 - that's a weigh difference like between 5.56mm NATO and 7.62mm NATO, which makes 5mm Personal Miniguns more believable than 5.56mm Personal Miniguns.
Also, why change calibers to make them like those in RL at all?

Overall, it was still a Fallout-type game even if it would have some things that I don't agree with.

Bethesda bought the rights. Don't they have the option to go 'their own way' as you or I or a number of others would do in a 'what if I had the rights' situation?

Except that if I would 'have the rights' I would try hire as much of people from the original team (including Tim Cain, Leonard Boyarsky and Jason Anderson)
If would want to "go my own way", the last thing I would want to do would be buying an established franchise like 'Fallout'.

All I was doing with my 'asking' statement was brain picking to see what would be so bloody-cool-die hard fan-accepting to put in Fallout 3 your vers.

What the fuck is "vers"?

 

[Tagaziel]

Re: the weigh in lasted 2 secs - world record!!!

I've come across people who wont even consider the Fallout Bibles canon since it conflicts what they believe to be 'fallouty'.

Actually, the Bible has some of things there are a guesswork and ideas of people who hadn't worked on Fallout 1.

And what exactly do you base this on? MCA worked in Interplay and had access to the core design documents. You do not and it's YOUR statements that are guesswork.

Not to mention that MCA repeatedly identified Vault Boy as a Pip Boy...

So? A single error automatically makes MCA untrustworthy?

As for VB - I've seen some weird things like changing calibers of weapons - for example there was a .223 Minigun, which doesn't make sense.
Miniguns in Fallout were 5mm and 5mm ammo is 2 times lighter than .223 - that's a weigh difference like between 5.56mm NATO and 7.62mm NATO, which makes 5mm Personal Miniguns more believable than 5.56mm Personal Miniguns.

What do you base the weight difference on? Oh yes, inventory weight. Has it occured to you that the weight might not correspond to how much it would weigh if it was real?

Also, why change calibers to make them like those in RL at all?

.223 existed in Fallout before Van Buren.

Seriously Sorrow. Stop being a hardheaded purist and open up that skull a little. Use a crowbar if you need to.

 

[Morbus]

Re: the weigh in lasted 2 secs - world record!!!

English, please?

I'll


try Engrish since my English no work. A common stance on the subject of Fallout many take is telling someone else what it's supposed to mean to them. Playing a game is subjective, much like watching a movie or reading a book. I've come across people who wont even consider the Fallout Bibles canon since it conflicts what they believe to be 'fallouty'. When someone is that haughty, it's time to hang up the cleats, but that'll happen when Van Buren is made. I wonder if the old devs get a kick out of the years of debating and waxing of those of us who weren't at the meeting when Fallout 1 and 2 were being thought of or involved in the beginning to end process in the slightest. Bethesda bought the rights. Don't they have the option to go 'their own way' as you or I or a number of others would do in a 'what if I had the rights' situation? All I was doing with my 'asking' statement was brain picking to see what would be so bloody-cool-die hard fan-accepting to put in Fallout 3 your vers.

I dunno what you mean by 'pussycats' SpeaK. I've seen some p!55 and vinegar word matches around here that could be filed under the 'if words could kill' banner.

The big thing is, it's not about how you see the games, or what you like about them. It's how they were made to begin with, and that, sir, is a very concrete thing. There were design visions, rules, principles. Everything put together to make the outstanding game Fallout was and still (unfortunately) is. So if Fallout was meant to be about recreating the P&P feel, Fallout 3 HAS TO BE too. If it was about choices and consequences, Fallout 3 HAS TO BE too. If it was about violence, sardonic humor, strategy in combat, multiple was of solving quests, having descriptions for everything EVERYTHING in the world, having interesting characters, dynamic storylines, Fallout 3, and any Fallout for that matter, HAS TO BE all that too. If it wasn't about drinking toilets, no problem, ok, that could be in Fallout 3, AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T CONTRADICT what a Fallout game is about to begin with. So yeah, it has to recreate the P&P feel, and that's a must. That was the most important thing for the original devs, and that is the biggest complain of all. I wouldn't mind playing a FarCry meet Fallout, as I enjoyed both of them, but I would still complain about it being called Fallout 3. As things stands now, Bethesda only has to really do their own game, and call it "Fallout: Whatever Hell They Want to Call it". No more complains about it being unfallout gameplaywise, or even designwise. Now, as for the setting, which they are also pissing upon, there would still be complains, of course, but that is only a normal thing.

It's not subjective at all. Fallout 3 is not a decent faithful worthy sequel, it's not even a sequel at all. It's just a spin-off with a name of a sequel. What is subjective is if you like the game or not, so let me tell you this, and you better listen: not even ONE quarter of those who will buy Fallout 3, no, not even 15% of those who will buy the thing LIKE the first two games. The majority is against turn based to begin with, and the remaining players just don't like reading a lot of texts and thinking. I tell you that, and their subjectivity is the PROOF that Bethesda DOESN'T GIVE A FUCK about the fans, no matter if their tastes are subjective or not. It's NOT about how you see the games, it's about how they ARE.

 

[Ausir]

And what exactly do you base this on? MCA worked in Interplay and had access to the core design documents. You do not and it's YOUR statements that are guesswork.

Many of the old design docs were lost along the way and MCA sometimes didn't do the proper research in the game's files itself. E.g. description of the Brotherhood of Steel was based on the description from Fallout: Warfare, the tabletop wargame from FOT bonus CD with some stuff applicable to the Eastern Brotherhood, but not to the original, including the Eastern BOS symbol, which is slightly different from the original one used in FO1. Some of the things he got wrong got corrected in subsequent Fallout Bibles.

Anyway, even though it was wrong in some places, Fallout Bible was still a great starting point for further research, but I wouldn't consider it canon in points where it contradicts FO1.

 

[Kyuu]

Re: the weigh in lasted 2 secs - world record!!!

If would want to "go my own way", the last thing I would want to do would be buying an established franchise like 'Fallout'.

Don't understand why people can't grasp this concept. How in the hell does it make sense to buy the rights to the Fallout franchise, then disregard it in most aspects and "go your own way?" So they could put cute little Vault Boy pictures in their menu screen?

What the fuck is "vers"?

I believe it's short for "version," although it'd do well to realize that people here are from diverse locations, including many for whom English is a second (or third or fourth) language, and using such a non-standard and odd abbreviation as "vers" is probably a bad idea. It's not even a common thing to do in the US, as far as I'm aware.

 

[Sorrow]

Re: the weigh in lasted 2 secs - world record!!!

And what exactly do you base this on?

I was thinking mostly about the explanation of mutations and descriptions of FEV - for all the length of the Bible mutations are of critters are described as caused by FEV or combination of FEV and then at the end there's a post of some guy that says that it's impossible and contradicts with what was written in logs about FEV in Fallout - then there are posted answers that were derived from it - it's hard to say which version is considered canon. Also, there were a few places where MCA does speculate, but he says that he is just guessing.
Not everything was covered in design documents.

What do you base the weight difference on? Oh yes, inventory weight. Has it occured to you that the weight might not correspond to how much it would weigh if it was real?

Why?
Also, the item description describes 5mm as "small, lightweight ammunition", so a small weight is an important feature of that ammo type.

.223 existed in Fallout before Van Buren.

.223 ammo - yes, .223 Personal Miniguns - no. Also, it doesn't mean just adding new RL ammo types, but also removing ammo like 10mm and 5mm.

Seriously Sorrow. Stop being a hardheaded purist and open up that skull a little. Use a crowbar if you need to.

Why do you think I'm a purist? Maybe I wouldn't have anything against changes in ammo if they went into opposite way (i.e. RL to fictional, instead of fictional to RL)?

 

[Ausir]

I was thinking mostly about the explanation of mutations and descriptions of FEV - for all the length of the Bible mutations are of critters are described as caused by FEV or combination of FEV and then at the end there's a post of some guy that says that it's impossible and contradicts with what was written in logs about FEV in Fallout - then there are posted answers that were derived from it - it's hard to say which version is considered canon. Also, there were a few places where MCA does speculate, but he says that he is just guessing.
Not everything was covered in design documents.

Actually, FEV was the explanation for all mutations in Scott Campbell's original design, back when Fallout was called "Vault 13: A GURPS Post Nuclear Adventure" and is still the version supported by Chris Taylor, one of the core makers of FO1, even though Tim Cain prefers the radiation explanation as the early design with FEV as the source of all mutations was conceived when the setting was already post-nuclear, but before Leon Boyarsky came up with making it retro-futuristic and based on 50s SCIENCE!

Avellone initially favored Taylor's version and eventually switched to Cain's, but both were equally valid as far as canon goes.

 

[Zeal]

lets delete all the posts from people who have been active for under 2 years to stop making it easy for journalists..

I say 3 years should be wiser

 

[Sorrow]

Actually, FEV was the explanation for all mutations in Scott Campbell's original design, back when Fallout was called "Vault 13: A GURPS Post Nuclear Adventure" and is still the version supported by Chris Taylor, one of the core makers of FO1, even though Tim Cain prefers the radiation explanation as the early design with FEV as the source of all mutations was conceived when the setting was already post-nuclear, but before Leon Boyarsky came up with making it retro-futuristic and based on 50s SCIENCE!

Avellone initially favored Taylor's version and eventually switched to Cain's, but both were equally valid as far as canon goes.

Ahh...
Thanks for the explanation .

It's interesting to see how people working in one team disagree on various issues .

 

[Tagaziel]

Re: the weigh in lasted 2 secs - world record!!!

I was thinking mostly about the explanation of mutations and descriptions of FEV - for all the length of the Bible mutations are of critters are described as caused by FEV or combination of FEV and then at the end there's a post of some guy that says that it's impossible and contradicts with what was written in logs about FEV in Fallout - then there are posted answers that were derived from it - it's hard to say which version is considered canon. Also, there were a few places where MCA does speculate, but he says that he is just guessing.
Not everything was covered in design documents.

Quite propably the whole FEV thang wasn't really written down. Only ZAX gives you a fully fledged definition and even that doesn't get repeated and used later in the game (e.g. injections vs. dipping, the latter a crude form yet it was used in Mariposa rather than injections, and it's never explained why).

Why?
Also, the item description describes 5mm as "small, lightweight ammunition", so a small weight is an important feature of that ammo type.

The ammo is marked as lightweight, yes.

However, that doesn't make other ammunition heavy.

Also, take note that the ammo is used in AK-112 and Rockwell's CZ-53, which may also mean that it's primarily assault rifle ammo later adapted for the CZ-53 to make logistics easier (kind of like the 5.56mm of today, used in M16/M4/M249, which are different class of firearms.

.223 ammo - yes, .223 Personal Miniguns - no. Also, it doesn't mean just adding new RL ammo types, but also removing ammo like 10mm and 5mm.

Do you have any reliable source that the .223 miniguns did not exist? No, you don't. Numerous real life cartridges exist within the universe of Fallout (.44, 10mm, 5.56mm etc.) alongside fictional ones, so the move to introduce more variety in ammunition (9mm, which existed in Fallout and was used) wasn't all too uncommon.

Plus, note how 5mm ammo is used for AK-112, which is marked as old and outdated. Maybe the round was being taken out of circulation and a new one introduced?

Why do you think I'm a purist? Maybe I wouldn't have anything against changes in ammo if they went into opposite way (i.e. RL to fictional, instead of fictional to RL)?

You are worshipping Fallout, and that is highly disturbing. Fallout was not, is not and will not be perfect in any way, shape or form.

 

[urikireOCS]

Re: the weigh in lasted 2 secs - world record!!!

English, please?

The big thing is, it's not about how you see the games, or what you like about them. It's how they were made to begin with, and that, sir, is a very concrete thing. It's NOT about how you see the games, it's about how they ARE.

Kyuu


got it right. Vers is a left over from my old group gaming days, not much different from the endearing term 'devs' or so I thought...

I say it's both Morbus, so we'll disagree on this. When you work on a project and have to turn it over to your audience, the ones you expect and those you don't, we'll see if your mind changes on this subject. Case in point: Have you seen Halloween and the recent remake? The original had a mood, characters, setting, and was milked to stupidity. The remake was changed quite drastically from the original, but even with its changes was watchable. Which is of course, my perogative. Zombie dropped the ball on the release date, not sure if that was out of his hands or not, and missed some key points - it just wasn't scary/suspenseful enough + some story elements were just plain stupid, but he added some unique aspects to it and at least stayed true to his 'definitive' ending speech. Some would say this was one pathetic attempt at a remake, others would say much of what I just said. That's one of the beautiful things about media. Of course there is a blueprint and road map of a project. That goes without saying. There is no rule in the great game of capitalism that states one must honour what comes before. Stupid yes, but that's the way it is. I remember a back-and-forth with someone about Yakuza and the Shi from FO2. They were going about how there existence in the game was pure nonsense, but refused to explain their position. I figured 'why wouldn't they be around? Life goes on. I don't remember continuity complaints about the well-armed group of Khans or the small grey rats that handed many a Vault Dweller their gluteous. I certainly would've enjoyed Van Buren, and am still on the look out for a release of some sort, but that's the stuff of dreams. When the hands steering the wheel change, most everything changes. I have no evidence of Bethesda being made up of the PnP geeks BIS was so why in the world would I even consider them to use BIS's work as a basis for their games beyond name only?

 

[Ausir]

Well, Bethesda does have some PnP geeks, like Bruce Nesmith, maker of Ravenloft. Hell, even Ken Rolston, lead designer of Morrowind and Oblivion wrote stuff for Paranoia, RuneQuest and wrote "Something Rotten in Kislev", one of the best known adventures for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.

 

[Brother None]

You do realise Ken Rolston long since left Bethesda, right, Ausir?

 

[Ausir]

Yes, but I'm just saying that even the lead designer of Oblivion was a PnP geek, so having PnP geeks on the team doesn't necessarily make a cRPG good. Anyway, "Something Rotten in Kislev" was actually the weakest part of "The Enemy Within" campaign.

 

[Tagaziel]

Yes, but I'm just saying that even the lead designer of Oblivion was a PnP geek, so having PnP geeks on the team doesn't necessarily make a cRPG good. Anyway, "Something Rotten in Kislev" was actually the weakest part of "The Enemy Within" campaign.

Everything is relative.