Per counts down his favourite games

[Brother None]

I totally get you when you rate FO 2 way better than FO, because it is in various ways, but that you do not dare to kick FO out of your list to replace it with Arcanum (which is superior to FO in a multitude of ways) is beyond me.

Yeah, 'cause Arcanum had like...sewers! Sewers where you could kill rats! Just like Oblivion!

Arcanum is a great game. A crappy combat system coupled with a retarded AI that accompanies you as you explore the multitude of whining cliche dungeons in the game, with traps (FUCK TRAPS) grades it below Fallout, though.

1, SP: Fallout 2 (PC)

The reason I always list Fallout 1 above Fallout 2 has nothing to do with nostalgia or "the original is always better". It has to do with a simple concept; completeness.

Fallout 1 was complete. There were no major loose ends in the storyline, no holes in the setting, no niche left unfilled (including humour).

Fallout 2 was incomplete and badly balanced. There were some loose ends never left tied up, including the weakness of the overal plot, the setting like swiss cheese, especially around midgame from New Reno to NCR, and the humour niche overflowed to absorb other no less viable niches, not to mention the humour was barely dark at times.

Fallout 2 has moments when it's a better RPG game (New Reno), moments when it grasps choice-and-consequence in a brilliant way (Ghost Farm, Gecko), but these are moments, and whenever it excells at one it fails at another.

Besides, there's always the "Master vs. Horrigan" thing.

 

[Per]

Per, are you trolling?

In that one sentence I was, yeah. OR WAS I? No, I was. Maybe! Muahaha!

I totally get you when you rate FO 2 way better than FO, because it is in various ways, but that you do not dare to kick FO out of your list to replace it with Arcanum (which is superior to FO in a multitude of ways) is beyond me.

I thought I'd have the support of you and SuaSide if I decided to swap Fallout for Arcanum. How would you defend the traps, crappy dungeon layouts, unbalanced magic and combat systems, and tired old "defeat this wizard - no, defeat this other wizard" plot?

 

[E]

honorary mention?

Have you ever played Nethack ? :
(If not go download it now and and go to your room)
or
Alpha Centauri???

If You had ever played these they should surely get an honorary mention at the least.

(M.O.M forced me to go an entire week on two hours sleep a night, so it rates too)

 

[Lord 342]

ADOM is better than NetHack. That said, NetHack runs on my Dell Axim, which is fun.

I have to agree with Per's assessment of Fallout 2 over Fallout -I can't even paraphrase it and imrpove it any "I dare say that anyone who'd rate Fallout over its sequel is thinking of something other and less tangible than the actual games and how they play". Per drives this one home, countersinks it, and put wood filler on top.

 

[alec]

I thought I'd have the support of you and SuaSide if I decided to swap Fallout for Arcanum. How would you defend the traps, crappy dungeon layouts, unbalanced magic and combat systems, and tired old "defeat this wizard - no, defeat this other wizard" plot?

How about this:

- Character creation is second to none.
- Cities that are really alive: no more npc's that seem to suffer from insomnia and stay in the same spot 24/24.
- A Throwing skill that is not useless.
- Brilliant steampunk setting.
- Make things, from health potions to mechanical armor.
- Own a goddamn boat and/or a friggin' mansion.
- Truly awarding evil path that is well implemented.
- 80+ locations
- Brilliant implementation of Thieving skill.
- Play as a different race
- Follower interaction (not a lot, but it happens if you have the right characters in your party).
- Have sex with a sheep.
- Apart from the cheap plot twist (Arronax -> Kerghan), a plot twist which by the way becomes less cheap when you bother to read all the books in the game and visit all the locations (the Iron Clan!), a truly good story with a nice philosophy attached to it (about Life and Death).
- Complete freedom (no timed events, except for dog in Ashbury).

I could go on for a while, I think.

Just one more remark: magick and technology aren't unbalanced. That's something you stop thinking once you actually finished the game with a technologist. It's slightly harder until you reach Tarant (which you can travel to directly after leaving Shrouded Hills, the first city in the game) and you can get hold of the Hand Cannon which will guide you safely through the first half of the game, but by then you can get your hands on the Pyrotechnic Axe (roughly the equivalent of a well groomed Harm spell), the Elephant Gun and even the Tesla Gun, I think. You can also build the best armors in the game, increase your stats with Rings and Helmets and what have you, and make such interesting articles as Molotov Cocktails, Dynamite, Anaesthesizer and Paralyzer. I fail to see how someone who's packing this kinda stuff could have a hard time beating the game.

 

[mr. pastorius]

Don't forget the Traquilizer Gun, although it's useless against undead, it knocks out even the strongest enemies in a few shots.
BTW, is the Pyrotechnic Axe intended to be a neutral item? I mean, I've just finished the game with a full-blooded elf mage and managed to wield it with no problem (well, except that its min. ST req. was as twice as my char's ST ).

 

[Ratty Sr.]

- Character creation is second to none.

So is Fallout's.

- Cities that are really alive: no more npc's that seem to suffer from insomnia and stay in the same spot 24/24.

Lots of Arcanum NPCs stay in the same spot all the time as well.

- A Throwing skill that is not useless.

True.

- Brilliant steampunk setting.

...

As opposed to shitty post-apocalyptic retro-50s setting?

- Make things, from health potions to mechanical armor.

True.

- Own a goddamn boat and/or a friggin' mansion.

True.

Hold on... you can own a mansion? Cool, I had no idea.

*goes off to replay the game*

- Truly awarding evil path that is well implemented.

Irrelevant. Fallout doesn't have distinct good/evil concepts or good/evil paths. That's one of the things that differentiates it from numerous fantasy RPGs that preceded it.

- 80+ locations

...about 12 of which aren't endless, abysmally boring combat areas.

Still, Arcanum pwnz Fallout in terms of size, no arguing there.

- Brilliant implementation of Thieving skill.

I don't see how the four thieving skills are considerably better implemented than in Fallout.

- Play as a different race

Irrelevant. If Fallout allowed the player to play as a different race, it would contradict the story. How do you explain the fact that a ghoul or a supermutant lived in a Vault?

- Follower interaction (not a lot, but it happens if you have the right characters in your party).

No arguing there, though in Fallout followers acknowledge each other too, even if they don't interact.

- Have sex with a sheep.

In Fallout you can get ass-raped by a big, green supermutant. Fallout wins.

- Apart from the cheap plot twist (Arronax -> Kerghan), a plot twist which by the way becomes less cheap when you bother to read all the books in the game and visit all the locations (the Iron Clan!), a truly good story with a nice philosophy attached to it (about Life and Death).

...

As opposed to Fallout's shitty, bland, mediocre, poorly written story?

- Complete freedom (no timed events, except for dog in Ashbury).

I don't see how that's a good thing.

Just one more remark: magick and technology aren't unbalanced. That's something you stop thinking once you actually finished the game with a technologist. It's slightly harder until you reach Tarant (which you can travel to directly after leaving Shrouded Hills, the first city in the game) and you can get hold of the Hand Cannon which will guide you safely through the first half of the game, but by then you can get your hands on the Pyrotechnic Axe (roughly the equivalent of a well groomed Harm spell), the Elephant Gun and even the Tesla Gun, I think. You can also build the best armors in the game, increase your stats with Rings and Helmets and what have you, and make such interesting articles as Molotov Cocktails, Dynamite, Anaesthesizer and Paralyzer. I fail to see how someone who's packing this kinda stuff could have a hard time beating the game.

I seriously doubt your technologist character, no matter how powerful, would stand a chance against my melee fighter / mage / diplomat combo, who has speed 52, is Master in Persuade, Melee and Dodge, knows Disintegrate and Harm spells, can maintain Hasten + Strength of Earth while still recovering fatigue, bears Velorien's blessing and wields Kryggird's Falchion.

 

[SuAside]

oi! Per, don't draw me into this dude or i'll be forced to make my own list, but what use would that be? no one would agree with it anyway, since well, no one has agreed with any of the already posted lists either.

to each his own...

 

[alec]

- Character creation is second to none.

So is Fallout's.

I wouldn't exactly say that. The skill system is flawed (most definitely in the way that it incorporates totally useless skills) and the trait system is not much better: it's full of ridiculous traits and the traits aren't much of a trade-off, most of the time. In Arcanum you have the backgrounds, which are - I agree - not very good ones, but the system of trade-offs is way more subtile and complex (in a nice way). Plus, you can easily make custom backgrounds in Arcanum.

Lots of Arcanum NPCs stay in the same spot all the time as well.

I think about 75% of the NPCs go to bed at night and probably 40% of them follow a certain routine, mostly walking or showing up somewhere at a certain time. One of the features I like about Arcanum is the fact that the cities feel alive in a variety of ways. Tarant is of course the most lively city with a newspaper, lots of pedestrians, moving machines, day/night-cycle, but at certain points in the game, new NPCs show up (like the adventurer in Black Root), returning from their expedition or work or something. That keeps everything interesting till the end game, where as in Fallout, cities were much more static.

Brilliant steampunk setting.

...

As opposed to shitty post-apocalyptic retro-50s setting?

No, not as opposed to ... Fallout's setting is equally brilliant. It's less consistent, though.

Hold on... you can own a mansion? Cool, I had no idea.

*goes off to replay the game*

You can own Bates' mansion.

- 80+ locations

...about 12 of which aren't endless, abysmally boring combat areas.

Still, Arcanum pwnz Fallout in terms of size, no arguing there.

This is the complete list of locations in Arcanum. I count more than 12 locations that aren't dungeons/endless, abysmally boring combat areas. You?

LOCATIONS

GLIMMERING FOREST

Falcon's Ache (1627W, 564S)
K'na Tha (1435W, 616S)
Qintarra (1545W, 657S)
Secret Village (1320W, 180S)
Small Camp (1261W, 477S)
Small Pond (1595W, 881S)
Strange Ceremony (1373W, 705S)
The Bangellian Deeps (1179W, 289S)
The Bedokaan Village (1179W, 315S)
The Castle S'nel N'fa (1386W, 640S)
The Poachers Camp (1206W, 275S)
T'sen-Ang (1507W, 297S)

GREY MOUNTAINS

Kerlin's Altar (882W, 423S)
Old Blind Master (750W, 556S)
Strange Pond (617W, 528S)
The Bog (1076W, 515S)
The Ruby Glade (795W, 250S)

HALF OGRE ISLAND

Half Ogre Island (923W, 1699S)

ISLE OF DESPAIR

Isle of Despair (323W, 877S)
Shades Beach (347W, 827S)
The home of Maximillian (320W, 838S)
The Woman's Camp (268W, 824S)

LEFT CONTINENT

A mysterious location (1586W, 1815S)
Ancient Ruins (1754W, 1479S)
Bolo's Altar (1626W, 1635S)
Caladon (1605W, 1828S)
Gorgoth Pass (1500W, 1442S)
Lethe Wyvern Sighting (1580W, 1009S)
Roseborough (1750W, 1514S)
Secret Entrance to the Iron Clan (1514W, 1185S)
The Broken Cathedral (1627W, 1206S)
The Cold Place (1611W, 1414S)
The Old Lagoon (1695W, 1318S)
Thieves Cave (1550W, 1536S)

MORBIHAN PLAINS

Ancient Shipwreck (499W, 892S)
Ancient Temple (776W, 919S)
Ashbury (505W, 978S)
Dungeon of the Dragon Pool (994W, 790S)
Elven Ruins (711W, 1022S)
Forbidden Pit (833W, 1034S)
Kree (635W, 1203S)
Stringy Petes Cove (683W, 1341S)
Stringy Pete's Treasure (807W, 1340S)
The Lair of Bellerogrim (769W, 838S)
The Williamson Homestead (510W, 1114S)
Vooriden (872W, 1191S)

STONEWALL RANGE

A Lair of Gyr Dolours (1183W, 1582S)
Ancient Maze (1367W, 1585S)
Arbalah's House (1451W, 1304S)
Black Root (1097W, 1441S)
Crash Site (1452W, 1292S)
Dernholm, capital of Cumbria (1236W, 1652S)
Fan Graveyard (1060W, 809S)
Hardin's Pass (1288W, 713S)
Liam's Workshop (1179W, 1465S)
Razors Pointe (1505W, 1771S)
Ruins of Szabo (1028W, 1324S)
Shrouded Hills (1409W, 1317S)
Simon Fahrkus' Shack (1450W, 1325S)
Stillwater (1189W, 754S)
Stonecutter Clan (1344W, 886S)
Tarant (972W, 1028S)
The Black Mountain Mines (1307W, 754S)
The Pit of Fires (1365W, 936S)
The Place of Lost Voices (1321W, 830S)
Torg's Altar (1216W, 1139S)
Torin Quarry (1419W, 1100S)
Uncharted Cave (1048W, 695S)
Vollinger's Meeting Place (1230W, 981S)
Wheel Clan (953W, 667S)
Wolf Cave (1230W, 1531S)

THANATOS

Boat Landing on Thanatos (628W, 1594S)
Land Bridge (721W, 1885S)
Nasrudin's Resting Place (721W, 1890S)
The Lair of the Bogaroth (642W, 1764S)
Village of the Ashlag Tribe (744W, 1701S)

VENDIGROTH WASTES

Dark Elf Camp (347W, 649S)
Gateway to the Wastes (466W, 741S)
Mysterious ruins of the wastes (474W, 694S)
Tulla (444W, 488S)
Vendigroth Ruins (307W, 587S)

]- Brilliant implementation of Thieving skill.

I don't see how the four thieving skills are considerably better implemented than in Fallout.

Oops, I didn't really explain that very well. What I meant was that playing as a thief means special quests, and quite a few, actually. I meant, that you can really feel like a thief whilst playing Arcanum, unlocking a bedroom window to sneak in and open a chest whilst the owner is asleep right next to you. That's cool stuff. Way cooler than using your Steal skill on an NPC in Fallout. In Fallout it's boring and tiresome. In Arcanum it's the coolest thing imagineable.

Have sex with a sheep.

In Fallout you can get ass-raped by a big, green supermutant. Fallout wins.

Damn. I forgot about the sodo-mutant in Broken Hills. Fuck.

Apart from the cheap plot twist (Arronax -> Kerghan), a plot twist which by the way becomes less cheap when you bother to read all the books in the game and visit all the locations (the Iron Clan!), a truly good story with a nice philosophy attached to it (about Life and Death).

As opposed to Fallout's shitty, bland, mediocre, poorly written story?

Nah, Fallout's story is pretty wicked, I agree. It's probably even better from a literary point of view, but then again: it got fucked up by the sequel (secret government agency? ha! thank god the game played like heaven or I wouldn't even be here) and all the other fucked up Fallout franchise (hairy deathclaws, bikergirls in thongs, ...), which I just can't forget about. Fortunately, Arcanum has not been ruined by a sequel. Let us hope that will never happen.

Complete freedom (no timed events, except for dog in Ashbury).

I don't see how that's a good thing.

I don't think I'm the only one who thinks that the timelimit to find the waterchip wasn't exactly the best thing the developers decided on. The first time I played Fallout, I couldn't help but feel a little annoyed by that, I felt I had to hurry up and couldn't fully enjoy the different flavours of the game. That's not so good, because your first time with Fallout should be the most memorable, and that wasn't the case (in my case).
I like absolute freedom in a game and although Fallout goes very far in that, Arcanum goes even further. I appreciate that.

I seriously doubt your technologist character, no matter how powerful, would stand a chance against my melee fighter / mage / diplomat combo, who has speed 52, is Master in Persuade, Melee and Dodge, knows Disintegrate and Harm spells, can maintain Hasten + Strength of Earth while still recovering fatigue, bears Velorien's blessing and wields Kryggird's Falchion.

Oh, I dunno, I'd just like to hear you say those words again when you are standing eye to eye with my favourite gunslinger, 100 technological proficiency, master in dodge (overriding you benefits of melee mastery), master in firearms and master in prowling (enabling him to conceal himself during combat and cause his opponent to lose track of him), doctorate in the Electrical and Smithy college and novice in the field of Explosives, wearing two charged rings, elite plate mail, Vendigrothian wargauntlets, the Finger of Mannox and the Trapmaker's glasses, bears Velorien's blessing and is wielding Droch's Warbringer in front of your pale face after drinking two potions of haste (which still work on tech characters) and a nice bottle of Vendigrothian elixir. Let's see you desintegrate 30 solid bullets heading for your brains in one turn, muthafucka!

The mages in Tulla would have the hardest time identifying your remains, magick boy.

 

[Sander]

Fuck you, alec. Now I need to go play Arcanum again, as a techno-thief. Dammit.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

I wouldn't exactly say that. The skill system is flawed (most definitely in the way that it incorporates totally useless skills)

That's a design issue with the game, rather than the character system. If you look at it that way, not all skills in Arcanum are terribly useful either; I can't think of any practical uses for Gambling except making some cash, for example.

the trait system is not much better: it's full of ridiculous traits and the traits aren't much of a trade-off, most of the time. In Arcanum you have the backgrounds, which are - I agree - not very good ones, but the system of trade-offs is way more subtile and complex (in a nice way). Plus, you can easily make custom backgrounds in Arcanum.

But Fallout has perks! Beat that!

I think about 75% of the NPCs go to bed at night and probably 40% of them follow a certain routine, mostly walking or showing up somewhere at a certain time. One of the features I like about Arcanum is the fact that the cities feel alive in a variety of ways. Tarant is of course the most lively city with a newspaper, lots of pedestrians, moving machines, day/night-cycle, but at certain points in the game, new NPCs show up (like the adventurer in Black Root), returning from their expedition or work or something. That keeps everything interesting till the end game, where as in Fallout, cities were much more static.

I agree Arcanum may be slightly better than Fallout in that respect; though I'm not completely convinced, as both Fallout and Fallout 2 featured characters with (fairly rudimentary) schedules (examples - various shopkeepers go to their bedrooms at nights, Dunton brothers spend their evenings at Sajag's place, Saul the boxer is at Skumm Pit when he isn't boxing, some guards have patrol routes etc.).

No, not as opposed to ... Fallout's setting is equally brilliant. It's less consistent, though.

The original Fallout was very consistent, if you disregard a few subtle easter eggs. It's Fallout 2 that suffers from consistency issues. I nonetheless consider FO2 to be overall superior to Arcanum, though only marginally.

This is the complete list of locations in Arcanum. I count more than 12 locations that aren't dungeons/endless, abysmally boring combat areas. You?

Sure, if you count really small or trivial places like countless ponds, altars, lone houses etc. I know of only the following major areas that aren't straight combat from start to end:

1. Shrouded Hills
2. Blackroot
3. Dernholm
4. Tarant
5. Ashbury
6. Isle of Despair
7. Wheel Clan
8. Stillwater
9. Qintarra
10. Tsen'Ang
11. Caladon
12. Roseborough
13. Tulla

A very impressive number, but it ain't exactly 80+.

Oops, I didn't really explain that very well. What I meant was that playing as a thief means special quests, and quite a few, actually. I meant, that you can really feel like a thief whilst playing Arcanum, unlocking a bedroom window to sneak in and open a chest whilst the owner is asleep right next to you. That's cool stuff. Way cooler than using your Steal skill on an NPC in Fallout. In Fallout it's boring and tiresome. In Arcanum it's the coolest thing imagineable.

I still fail to see how it's much better than Fallout, apart from the bedroom window thing, and the fact that Fallout NPCs stand upright while sleeping.

I don't think I'm the only one who thinks that the timelimit to find the waterchip wasn't exactly the best thing the developers decided on. The first time I played Fallout, I couldn't help but feel a little annoyed by that, I felt I had to hurry up and couldn't fully enjoy the different flavours of the game. That's not so good, because your first time with Fallout should be the most memorable, and that wasn't the case (in my case).

That's subjective, then. I like the sense of urgency in Fallout and lament the fact that it's missing from most RPGs, even those that have you saving the world from some terrible evil that will destroy everything if you don't stop it, like, right away.

Oh, I dunno, I'd just like to hear you say those words again when you are standing eye to eye with my favourite gunslinger, 100 technological proficiency, master in dodge (overriding you benefits of melee mastery), master in firearms and master in prowling (enabling him to conceal himself during combat and cause his opponent to lose track of him), doctorate in the Electrical and Smithy college and novice in the field of Explosives, wearing two charged rings, elite plate mail, Vendigrothian wargauntlets, the Finger of Mannox and the Trapmaker's glasses, bears Velorien's blessing and is wielding Droch's Warbringer in front of your pale face after drinking two potions of haste (which still work on tech characters) and a nice bottle of Vendigrothian elixir. Let's see you desintegrate 30 solid bullets heading for your brains in one turn, muthafucka!

Meh. With my Shield of Protection and maxed out Strength, Dexterity and Dodge skill, I'd probably survive long enough to Disintegrate your ass. And with my extreme Persuade skill, you'd probably be too awed to shoot me.

 

[Brother None]

- Character creation is second to none.

buzz, wrong. Try "character creation is second only to the Realms of Arkania", then you might be closer to reality.

- Cities that are really alive: no more npc's that seem to suffer from insomnia and stay in the same spot 24/24.

Just like Oblivion!

- A Throwing skill that is not useless.

Compared to melee? Yes it is, the damage caused by most thrown weapons is just too low.

That said, what you name here is one example of good setting/rules balance, which is the same point you repeat with thieving.

But I disagree, I don't think Arcanum is particularly well balanced, because it lacks balance on one key point; magic vs. technology. Say, I'm a mage, go for mental, and I reach stun. Whoops, I can now defeat anything in the game. Summon ogre? Hey presto, the entire game up until the Void just became hella easy. Disintegrate? Oooh, whoops, there go the legendary creaturs Arronax, Gorgoth, and the rest.

You can't defend that it is not unbalanced. Technology facilitates being a fighter or a shooter, and only in the latter half of the game, while magic means you don't need to bother with any other skills, they're just superfluous, as the entire game from the Crash Site (as you can take stun as a starting skill) to the Void (where you can just disintegrate everything as a Force Master) is a breeze.

- Make things, from health potions to mechanical armor.

I don't like crafting, but there are games that do it better.

- Own a goddamn boat and/or a friggin' mansion.

Whoopdidoo. The boat is useless by that point in the game and owning Bates' Estate has no net effect. At all.

- Truly awarding evil path that is well implemented.

True that.

- 80+ locations

So?

- Play as a different race

So? Am I supposed to be impressed by that because of Oblivion-esque stupidity in the dialogue because of it?
NPC: Get away from me, you stinking half-orc.
PC: Sir, I protest, your attitude offends me.
NPC: I like you now!

And the rest of the conversation is exactly is if you were human.

Gdddduhr?

- Follower interaction (not a lot, but it happens if you have the right characters in your party).

Worst follower interaction ever. Virgil is fucking boring and uninteresting. And the next "most-interesting" fellow is Magnus. Magnus?! Worst NPC ever! The guy sounds like a fucking hobit. First time I recruited him I just killed him because his voice was getting on my nerves.

Gar is a cool voiced NPC, but Torian Kel is the only interesting NPC. And does he interact a lot? Nope. Just whines about his sword. That's about it.

- Apart from the cheap plot twist (Arronax -> Kerghan), a plot twist which by the way becomes less cheap when you bother to read all the books in the game and visit all the locations (the Iron Clan!), a truly good story with a nice philosophy attached to it (about Life and Death).

I've been to the Iron Clan, but I'm not sure what it has to do with Arronax -> Kerghan.

The Life and Death philosophy didn't work for me because there wasn't enough leading up to it and because it doesn't click well with the overal theme of the game (which is technology vs magic).

- Complete freedom (no timed events, except for dog in Ashbury).

Dog isn't timed, it depends on when you reach Ashbury. Every "timed" event is fitted into your timeline, including Kerghan's visit.

PS: I must admit you guys are remarkably unimaginative in your character creation, bunch of power gamers. My favourite character? A gnome with high skill in dexterity, charisma and willpower, master of throwing and persuasion and master of Force discipline and maxed out in Illusions, Mental and Conveyance. The non-power gaming is the equipment, which includes a Chapeaux of Magnetic Inversion, the Blind Master's throwing thingy and a nice suit.

 

[Per]

Re: honorary mention?

Have you ever played Nethack ? :
(If not go download it now and and go to your room)
or
Alpha Centauri???

If You had ever played these they should surely get an honorary mention at the least.

I've played Nethack (and even started a thread on it here). I concluded that it's a masochist's dream unless you use save scumming. I like an intellectual challenge, but I'll happily turn down a game which in the long run amounts only to a frustration.

I haven't played Alpha Centauri, as it always seemed to me like a less attractive alternative to Civ. I realize some of the improvements to the series originated there, though.

About Arcanum, I almost said something that might bring the "all character choices should be viable min-maxing exercises" debate up again.