Kharn said:
Jebus said:
They have no right to do that whatsoever. But does that give us the right to do that? Do two wrongs make a right?
Not really, but currently EU governments are under pressure to push forward anti-free speech regulations, pressure from muslim nations. This is a simple issue of us-vs-them, free spreech vs. religious intolerance.
Then call the government of those nations 'savage'. I sure as hell do.
Kharn said:
I never called them savages, for all due reference.
I know, I wasn't really talking to you in that post. I was talking a second person plural. They know who they are.
Kharn said:
Jebus said:
We're not condemning islamaphoby and the hurting of peoples' beliefs either.
Islamophobia we are condemning. You did outlaw the Vlaams Blok, remember? But there are limits to infringing on people's rights just to protect other people. Insulting religions falls outside of what can be justified to oppress.
See, I know that. I'm not calling for any anti-free speech laws, just like you (I hope) aren't calling for anti-protests laws in Islamic countries. It's a matter of moral and ethics - I believe in free speech, but I do not believe in 'open' speech. There should be moral boundaries to what one may publish in the press - not neccesairily bound by law, but press agencies should regulate themselves in matters like this.
In this case, they did so in the US - oddly enough. They knew publishing stuff like that is morally reprehensible, and they didn't do it. Not because any law was forcing them, but because of good old human decency.
Kharn said:
Jebus said:
Just like those muslims that protested peacefully had every legal right to do that too. Yet, you cannot expect the silent majority of muslims to condemn those protests morally when we don't condemn people publishing cartoons of that kind either.
That said, I don't see why the silent majority should morally condemn those protesting in the first place. They have every moral right to protest - if it were the other way around, I'd be protesting too. They were hurt in their deepest beliefs, and all the West first reactions were knee-jerk actions like 'Hey, EVERYBODY should publish those cartoons! That'd teach them!'
Really? I'm supposed to think that the silent majority thinking it's a-ok for their brethren on the street to yell "death to the infidels" and burn flags of other nations?
I don't get how you deducted that from what I said.
Kharn said:
Jebus said:
Media is read around the entire world, so you can't expect to be able to publish something that offends peoples beliefs so severely and not get any protest.
Actually, you can, the Danish cartoons passed by without a cough or a nod or a stir in Denmark until some asshole imam took it over to the muslims and spread the word there. Incitement to violence, anyone?
Potatoes, potàtoes.
Whatever the means, whatever the reasons, it got spread.
Kharn said:
Jebus said:
What's wrong with the boycott? It's their godgiven right to buy anything they damn well please.
Yes and no. We live in a free-market controlled world, remember. Boycotting anything is now a political means. It's also the US' godgiven right to buy anything it pleases, including not buying Cuban products, but would you say they're not making a political statement by doing so
And is it not the godgiven right of any civilian to make political statements?
I'm not talking about state-imposed boycotts here, though. As I already said, I'm not agreeing with anything some islamist governments are doing. Hell, I don't agree with *anything* that the muslim protesters are doing - I'm just trying to not judge all muslims for that.
Kharn said:
Jebus said:
Are people (such as me) boycotting certain products to protest against pollution, exploition and childlabour doing something wrong too, then?
Depends on whether or not you think pollution, exploition and childlabour are values to be held on the same level as freedom of speech.
You're really bad at making analogues comparisons, Jebus.
The anology isn't with freedom of speech here, it's with religion. They're protesting because they are hurt in their religious beliefs, not because they dislike the fact the fact that we have freedom of speech.
Well, I mean, they cross in this case - but it's still mainly about religion.
*EDIT* And don't even dare to quote these lines and take them out of context.
Kharn said:
Jebus said:
And if you're alluding to the 'generalizing' aspect - I've already covered that before. Them holding the Danish government and all Danish people responsible for the cartoons that newspaper published is indeed nonsense, but some people here calling all muslims savages because some are burning embassies is just as much nonsense.
Yes. And? We're not boycotting Saudi products. We're not calling a ban on all Middle Eastern products. We're not calling for them to be beheaded. We're not pressuring them to publish the cartoons too.
*sigh*
That's not my point.
Incidentally, many *are* calling for a Saudi product boycott.
I'm wondering where everybody will get their oil from nowadays, though, since plenty of people are already boycotting American oil here too...
Kharn said:
The difference between the two attitudes is so wide, Jebus.
I'm not claiming that the West is acting worse than the muslim protesters here, Kharn. For crying out loud - at least
try to get my point.
Kharn said:
What I don't understand is why in Frith's name you think we should be the first to yield.
I don't want 'us' to yield. I love freedom of speech. I'd die defending it.
You're stuffing words into my mouth again, Kharn.
Kharn said:
You're almost saying we're in the wrong here, that we started it.
Everybody is in the wrong here. 'We' are for not respecting their religious values, 'they' are for not respecting our society's values.
Again, I didn't say that the West is acting worse. Au contraire.
Kharn said:
Fuck that. This is a stand-off in values, free speech versus religious intolerance,
How epic.
The exact words of Filip DeWinter, frontman of the Flemish Block, by the way.
And again: I'm not defending neither side here.
Kharn said:
and you're basically walking around saying "Ho-hum, we shouldn't be so mean to them." What the hell? Then what? We should stop being mean? We should surrender our freedom of speech because they feel slightly miffed?
Fuck no, we should stand by our freedom of speech until the last breath we take and we should chop off every hand that strikes at us.
Yet, we should not hold the entire muslim population responsible for what some hot-heads are doing.
Kharn said:
No major upcry from any muslim organisation has been heared in protest of the "Death to all Infidels"-statements of cartoonhaters - fact
Wrong.
Kharn said:
Where's the bigotry? You're like a Jew shouting "anti-Semite!" whenever someone criticizes Israel. It may be true sporadically, but sometimes criticism is valid. Drop the typical European islamo-apologetic attitude and think for a moment.
People should drop the typical Western outlook of
35-year old muslim protester in Gaza = 78-year old muslim retired teacher in Java = 18-year old muslim computer programmer in India = the muslim next door.
One billion people can't be judged on the actions of a few. People can't generalize and call all muslims 'savages' because of what's happening here. Because that's racism.