Ah-Teen said:
You mean in contrast to the anabolized antibiotics beef grown by today's megacorps?
Blakut said:
Same goes for most animals. It's definitely valid for dogs, and not unlikely humans as well.
Question to all vegetarians/vegans out there...
- Thread starter Verevoof
- Start date
You mean in contrast to the anabolized antibiotics beef grown by today's megacorps?
Same goes for most animals. It's definitely valid for dogs, and not unlikely humans as well.
victor said:
Are you still sure thats beef?
Up to 96% meat content sure.
Moloch Horridus
First time out of the vault
I've found it rather funny that every time when people are talking about veganism these arguments always come up:
1. Plants are alive too, how can you eat them?
- Yes, but "they" don't have nervous system, nor emotions according to knowledge we have today. If you like to blame vegan for eating living plants you should really consider your meat eating habits first. Why? What do you think your beef have been fed? This is, in my opinion, the most idiotic question/comment ever. And it's there every time, I wonder about the second point below.
2. People are as smart as they are because they eat meat.
- Is this scientifically proven? I didn't think so. And since we are so smart, and can thrive eating only plant based food, why continue to eat meat? It's harmful to the nature by using unnecessary resources, cause suffering to animals and humans alike (think all the low paid workers killing living beings day after day in miserable working conditions) and is one of the reasons for poor health in general population. If anything, human race is currently deteriorating mentally at alarming rate. Maybe they are not eating enough meat?
3. We are on top of the food chain so we can eat whatever we like.
- After getting bit by a shark or a lion you might feel otherwise, yet you would probably still like to have revenge to a said animal or it's species however irrational that would be. Animals which eat meat do it simply because they have to do it in order to survive. Sure, we can eat whatever we like since we can kill and destroy whatever we don't like or like enough, and that's pretty much the problem. I'd rather die by hungry shark than needy drug addict, but that's just personal preference.
4. If we wouldn't eat animals, will they just wander in the wild suffering?
- Yes they probably would. Not. How stupid can you really be? We are breeding animals so we can exploit them. They don't just magically appear in to the world. They don't usually even mate naturally, they are artificially inseminated. Billions every year are born and killed. If humans would stop eating animals they would not born at all. Do you really think all usage of livestock would some day stop overnight? If so, wonderful - really, have a feast on last living livestock and be done with it.
5. You couldn't be morally superior vegan if not for modern society.
- Most probably true, though there are humans living in pretty horrible conditions (by our western standards) and not consuming animal products. The thing is, we have a choice and that is truly great. We don't have to eat animals. Thank you and everyone else who made this possible.
One could probably say the very same for slavery. It made many things possible but have somewhat few supporters nowadays. For a very good reason I might add.
There are more, but I'll leave it to these five for now. There's actually a bingo sheet for these arguments but playing is pretty boring because you win every single time.
And finally, yes if you eat meat you are directly responsible for poor conditions and killing of animals. You buy meat and that makes the industry profitable. You buy cheapest possible meat and you've just worsened the conditions of animals. It's not really hard math if you stop and think of it. Just say you don't care and it's ok, don't try to justify your doings by making crazy shit up.
1. Plants are alive too, how can you eat them?
- Yes, but "they" don't have nervous system, nor emotions according to knowledge we have today. If you like to blame vegan for eating living plants you should really consider your meat eating habits first. Why? What do you think your beef have been fed? This is, in my opinion, the most idiotic question/comment ever. And it's there every time, I wonder about the second point below.
2. People are as smart as they are because they eat meat.
- Is this scientifically proven? I didn't think so. And since we are so smart, and can thrive eating only plant based food, why continue to eat meat? It's harmful to the nature by using unnecessary resources, cause suffering to animals and humans alike (think all the low paid workers killing living beings day after day in miserable working conditions) and is one of the reasons for poor health in general population. If anything, human race is currently deteriorating mentally at alarming rate. Maybe they are not eating enough meat?
3. We are on top of the food chain so we can eat whatever we like.
- After getting bit by a shark or a lion you might feel otherwise, yet you would probably still like to have revenge to a said animal or it's species however irrational that would be. Animals which eat meat do it simply because they have to do it in order to survive. Sure, we can eat whatever we like since we can kill and destroy whatever we don't like or like enough, and that's pretty much the problem. I'd rather die by hungry shark than needy drug addict, but that's just personal preference.
4. If we wouldn't eat animals, will they just wander in the wild suffering?
- Yes they probably would. Not. How stupid can you really be? We are breeding animals so we can exploit them. They don't just magically appear in to the world. They don't usually even mate naturally, they are artificially inseminated. Billions every year are born and killed. If humans would stop eating animals they would not born at all. Do you really think all usage of livestock would some day stop overnight? If so, wonderful - really, have a feast on last living livestock and be done with it.
5. You couldn't be morally superior vegan if not for modern society.
- Most probably true, though there are humans living in pretty horrible conditions (by our western standards) and not consuming animal products. The thing is, we have a choice and that is truly great. We don't have to eat animals. Thank you and everyone else who made this possible.
One could probably say the very same for slavery. It made many things possible but have somewhat few supporters nowadays. For a very good reason I might add.
There are more, but I'll leave it to these five for now. There's actually a bingo sheet for these arguments but playing is pretty boring because you win every single time.
And finally, yes if you eat meat you are directly responsible for poor conditions and killing of animals. You buy meat and that makes the industry profitable. You buy cheapest possible meat and you've just worsened the conditions of animals. It's not really hard math if you stop and think of it. Just say you don't care and it's ok, don't try to justify your doings by making crazy shit up.
You're confusing two things. People who say that aren't saying it's immoral to eat living things, they're saying it's hypocritical of vegans to scoff at using animals but not to do the same thing for plants.Moloch Horridus said:
I don't agree with that criticism, but your lambasting that reasoning is nonsensical.
There are indications that this is the case, though.Moloch Horridus said:
[quote="Moloch Horridus"}
And since we are so smart, and can thrive eating only plant based food, why continue to eat meat? It's harmful to the nature by using unnecessary resources, cause suffering to animals and humans alike (think all the low paid workers killing living beings day after day in miserable working conditions)[/quote]
A few points:
- I don't think most low paid workers killing animals are being traumatized.
- Would you rather those workers be unemployed than low-paid?
- Not consuming any meat would probably also be harmful to nature, as animal populations can grow out of control unchecked very easily. Moreover, most animals we currently use for food would be completely unsuited to life outside captivity.
Has this been scientifically proven? Acutally, has this been proven in any way?Moloch Horridus said:
Asking why vegans eat fake meat is like asking why lesbians use strap-ons.
But seriously though, there´s nothing wrong with this fake meat food. I´ve tried it and liked it, because I like trying new things. But of course I prefer the real thing and I´m not going to stop eating meat anytime soon.
I don´t like the way some animals suffer because we want to eat them. And I don´t like the way we are destroying the environment. But I´m just not willing to make any personal sacrifices in this regard.
But seriously though, there´s nothing wrong with this fake meat food. I´ve tried it and liked it, because I like trying new things. But of course I prefer the real thing and I´m not going to stop eating meat anytime soon.
I don´t like the way some animals suffer because we want to eat them. And I don´t like the way we are destroying the environment. But I´m just not willing to make any personal sacrifices in this regard.
spukrian said:
thats the best thing I read so far in this thread.
Wow, I'm joining this a bit to late. Ethics are a luxury we allow our selves because we can, and most of what we agree is right and wrong benefits the community we live in. The bottom line is that we are all talking flesh bags and ethical concepts are subjective. The only meaningful ethics are those that are held by the community as a whole. There are no definitives in a subjective concept. There are allot of rational reasons why more vegi ethics are being adopted though, but we want to stay on topic.
The meat you guys are talking about is not meat at all, it is soya and or gluten, mixed with flavours and other crap. It is only styled in the form of meat and marketed as such, because meat registers in most peoples brains as a form of food, where as Textured Vegetable Protein sounds a little less appealing. TVP sounds like a good proposition to most vegis from a utilitarian point of view, but to casual "week-end-vegis" it is not. It's just marketing. We would not be having this discussion if it was called TVP. It's not hypocritical for ethical-vegans / vegis to eat it, because it does not legitimise animal suffering. It might be a little weird to an outsider though.
PS the majority of soya crop is grown for cattle feed, and the consumption of fish for Omega-3 "fish oils" is apparently linked to human evolution, but the fish source the "fish oils" from algae anyway.
The meat you guys are talking about is not meat at all, it is soya and or gluten, mixed with flavours and other crap. It is only styled in the form of meat and marketed as such, because meat registers in most peoples brains as a form of food, where as Textured Vegetable Protein sounds a little less appealing. TVP sounds like a good proposition to most vegis from a utilitarian point of view, but to casual "week-end-vegis" it is not. It's just marketing. We would not be having this discussion if it was called TVP. It's not hypocritical for ethical-vegans / vegis to eat it, because it does not legitimise animal suffering. It might be a little weird to an outsider though.
PS the majority of soya crop is grown for cattle feed, and the consumption of fish for Omega-3 "fish oils" is apparently linked to human evolution, but the fish source the "fish oils" from algae anyway.
No, we cannot thrive with plants only. And i for one LIKE meat and will continue eating it.
Also, i've witness pigs, chicken and cows being slaughtered (by hand, btw, with a knife or axe) and i am not the least traumatised!
The human presence on this earth causes suffering to animals, the fact that you use the computer, drive a car or take an airplane somewhere does more harm to the environment than me eating a steak!
Blakut said:
Eat and be happy, but don't claim it is the only way. Plant based diets can be perfectly healthy, and if you knew anything about nutrition, you would agree. Excessive meat is very unhealthy, you should only eat 2.2 grams (or there abouts) of protein per 1lb of body weight a day, and that is if you are training.
Blakut said:
I hope you remain true to your above statement and do not have any children, otherwise why even use it as an argument in your favour at all. Eat steak and don't have kids. I'm not implying anything about your genes BTW I will not be having kids either.
It was reductio ad absurdum...somehow. I think that people should eat meat if they want and have kids of course.
We can do it now, because we import food from all over the world. Guess what happens if something goes wrong... I'll never be able to grow soy or other stuff in my back yards...
Blakut said:We can do it not, because we import food from all over the world. Guess what happens if something goes wrong... I'll never be able to grow soy or other stuff in my back yards...
But by that logic, you'll no longer be able to eat meat either, as there'll be no crops for cattle to eat.
Also, stop it with this "you can eat this and that only because..." and "veganism is a luxury" argument. It's a logical fallacy, and I'm getting sick of pointing it out. The fact of the matter is we can eat vegetarian only and in fact be far healthier than the average meat-eater. Your intimidation arguments saying we wouldn't survive in a post-apocalyptic environment are absolutely ridiculous. Neither would you.
And the majority of poor people in the world (hint: there's a lot) don't even have access to meat. I'm guessing some of them have never even eaten meat. That means you're the one eating a luxury.
Actually, my primary argument was that i eat it because i like it.
Cropt would grow in a post apoc environemnt, but there would be no way to import plants from all over the world. I don't use intimidation arguments. What, do you feel intimidated? I didn't even present that as an argument against, just as a fact i wanted to point out.
Yeah, and they live a healthy, free of all diseases life.
Blakut said:
Completely irrelevant, that wasn't my point. They're malnourished, and not because they don't eat meat.
Also, had you actually read my post, you'd know that your precious meat industry wouldn't survive either without crop imports.
By the right of the evolutionary process I eat meat. Humans are omnivorous just like bears.
The nutritional argument is bad. But quite honestly being a vegetarian does not make you healthier.
The meat that is so unhealthy for us to eat is also the crap we get at Mc Donalds. (Eat their salad or consume enough of their ice cream and your gonna be just as unhealthy as Burger eating Billy)
You can have a perfectly balanced diet doing either or a simply horrible one.
There is nothing wrong with eating meat. It's how we consume ANYTHING that is the real nutritional problem.
The nutritional argument is bad. But quite honestly being a vegetarian does not make you healthier.
The meat that is so unhealthy for us to eat is also the crap we get at Mc Donalds. (Eat their salad or consume enough of their ice cream and your gonna be just as unhealthy as Burger eating Billy)
You can have a perfectly balanced diet doing either or a simply horrible one.
There is nothing wrong with eating meat. It's how we consume ANYTHING that is the real nutritional problem.
My Sister is a Vegetarian. She doesnt have any health issues at all. Shes NOT a Vegan though and she doesnt eat meat cause she cant stand the taste of it in any way. So shes a Vegetarian more or less not cause of choice. Fake-meat doesnt suit her either, well cause it tastes like meat.
So Vegetarians can survive without the need to eats animals. No issue here.
Though that humanity as whole could go without meat at all is I think not possible. Enough cultures are dependand on a diverse diet. In places where you have easy access to all kinds of alternatives living a life as vegetarian is of course possible. Doing that somewhere int he Russian tundra near the polar circle or somewhere in the kalahari Desert of Africa. Not so much. Humans managed to almost conquer any region of the planet as habitat. And in some cases they even managed to survive without fucking up the whole ecosystem in one way or another (I guess since they work without any industiralisation ...). And one reason is the flexiblity. As said though without any alternative some people will starve and die eventualy without a food source that contains crops AND meat. Its for some the only way how to gain certain nutrients for winter for example. Either by using Fish or other meat sources. So the All humans could exist without meat is a moot point in my eyes. Theoreticaly. Yes for sure. Practicaly. Not so much.
So Vegetarians can survive without the need to eats animals. No issue here.
Though that humanity as whole could go without meat at all is I think not possible. Enough cultures are dependand on a diverse diet. In places where you have easy access to all kinds of alternatives living a life as vegetarian is of course possible. Doing that somewhere int he Russian tundra near the polar circle or somewhere in the kalahari Desert of Africa. Not so much. Humans managed to almost conquer any region of the planet as habitat. And in some cases they even managed to survive without fucking up the whole ecosystem in one way or another (I guess since they work without any industiralisation ...). And one reason is the flexiblity. As said though without any alternative some people will starve and die eventualy without a food source that contains crops AND meat. Its for some the only way how to gain certain nutrients for winter for example. Either by using Fish or other meat sources. So the All humans could exist without meat is a moot point in my eyes. Theoreticaly. Yes for sure. Practicaly. Not so much.
When it comes to food the Human is more comparable to pig then a bear though I think.Particularly since the pig and humans share a lot of similarities from physical features like the fat and its consistency the similarity is so big that some even considered to use pigs as source for organ transplantation. Bears have a different way of gaining and using their body fat for example. And I always thought bears would be carnivores (sometimes eatingt plants doesnt make it a omnivore I think but I am not a expert around classification).Sephis said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OmnivoreCrni Vuk said:
being an Omnivore has nothing to do with phyiscal similarities or how fat is stored. Bears are far from simply being carnivores.
"Their carnivorous reputation non-withstanding, most bears have adopted a diet of more plant than animal matter and are completely opportunistic omnivores." quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear#Diet_and_interspecific_interactions
honey, insects, berries, roots, and all sorts of various vegetation is considered food by bears.
well what ever if they are omnivores or carnivors. They still are not closer to the human then pigs.
The part about fast was just some example. Cause if a human would start to gain fat the same way a bear is doing ... he would die.
What ever. Its not the point of the topic.
The part about fast was just some example. Cause if a human would start to gain fat the same way a bear is doing ... he would die.
What ever. Its not the point of the topic.
just a quick interlude. homo erectus, after discovering fire and figuring out how to cook/roast meat with it, became quit smart because of that. denatured protein consumes 20% less energy while being digested. this free energy went into the brain, which also grew, and as a result, homo erectus crafted better tools for even more efficient hunting. which meant even more protein. this led to speech, etc.
another point. keeping a healthy diet from plant-only-sourced food is most definitely luxury. why? because protein is an integral part of the human diet. millions die every year because of low-protein input. getting that protein from elsewhere is not something you can do easily. soybeans for example won't grow everywhere. fish is not readily available everywhere. you see where i'm going.
(trivia: some plants, through consumption, actually result in a negative energy balance. i.e. digesting them consumes more energy than they provide. good for losing weight, but otherwise quite useless.)
to sum up. everyone has a choice. i chose the classic way. but i don't mind vegetarians or vegans. what i mind however, is them trying to force their opinion on me. which has happened quite a lot lately. i call 'em eco-fascists.
another point. keeping a healthy diet from plant-only-sourced food is most definitely luxury. why? because protein is an integral part of the human diet. millions die every year because of low-protein input. getting that protein from elsewhere is not something you can do easily. soybeans for example won't grow everywhere. fish is not readily available everywhere. you see where i'm going.
(trivia: some plants, through consumption, actually result in a negative energy balance. i.e. digesting them consumes more energy than they provide. good for losing weight, but otherwise quite useless.)
to sum up. everyone has a choice. i chose the classic way. but i don't mind vegetarians or vegans. what i mind however, is them trying to force their opinion on me. which has happened quite a lot lately. i call 'em eco-fascists.