Rebuttal of Escapist's "Bethesda Killed Fallout" article

[Norzan]

Sterilizing them = making the human race go extinct = eradicate humanity

Humanity will die anyway in his mind if they reject being turned int Super Mutants. At least he gives the peaceful ones the option of living the rest of their lives in peace. He also doesn't consider the peaceful ones part of humanity anymore, only the ones turned into Super Mutants because he believes that's the next step of human evolution.

Meanwhile the Enclave exterminates them on the spot because of some arbirtary reason.

 

[Valwin]

Could be that some GECKS were BS

The Super Mutants weren't evil, they were following the Master. The Master also wasn't evil, he truly believed in what he's trying to accomplish that it was the best for humanity. He didn't do things out of any evil intention, just the pursuit of greater good he believed in.

The Enclave in Fallout 3 is still just as evil as the one in Fallout 2. Nothing of what you said explained why they are morally ambiguous. Colonel Autumn has no qualms about killing innocent people to show how much better than Enclave is, so where's the moral ambiguity? Colonel Autumn's plan is the same one from the Enclave in Fallout 2.

Depends what you mean by Evil here

For Example, super mutants have the tendency to be pretty hostile to anything that's not them and someone been in receiving end of that could call them evil.

Fallout 3 enclave is not in the same level of so call evil as the one in 2 I think is due with characters been a new generation.

Autumn really did believe they were doing the right thing to the point he went against the President plans of pretty much genocide. don't get me wrong The General is a murderer but even he knows that killing everyone will do nothing to aid the Enclave final mision.

He knows that in order to gain control as the LEGIT government of the USA he needs control over those people
I would no call the Enclave 3 fully evil .

Now about the GECK, I think some of them were legit and some were Vault tech Jokes.
People should give fallout 3 some credit I think the game does manage to give you the feeling of Fallout 1 in terms of everything went to shit.

 

[R.Graves]

I would no call the Enclave 3 fully evil .

they kill and torture innocent people for no reason. murder people when a simple beating would suffice. they're objectively evil. just because autumn has a terminal entry somewhere about how he doesn't wanna do genocide doesn't make him magically a good boi.

feeling of Fallout 1 in terms of everything went to shit.

lol nope.

like i said earlier everyone in fallout 3 is really content with their situation apart from 3 bums.

 

[Norzan]

Fallout 1's setting somehow looks better than Fallout 3's setting, even though there's an 116 year gap. Fallout 3's setting is a colossal failure because it doesn't take into account that if people are still struggling this hard 200 years after the bombs fell, they should all be dead. At least in Fallout 1 it makes more sense for the things to be in the way they are because it's been 84 years, not 200.

Even if Fallout 3's setting was in the same as Fallout 1 (which it isn't, people seem somehow happy), the setting wouldn't make any sense to still be in the state it is in.

 

[mannawyadden]

It seems a great thing about Fallout is how much discussion and debate it can spawn. The fans are very passionate on all sides and if the answers were all laid out in an obvious way, there would be nothing to talk about.

The 200 year timeframe for Fallout 3 is pretty bad at first glance. They might have been trying to put a lot of geographical and chronological distance between 2 and 3, but expecting me to believe there's still packaged food in the Super Duper Mart right next to Megaton asking a lot. Requires a lot of suspension of disbelief or head canon gymnastics to believe.

Fallout 3's setting was in the Capital Wasteland so maybe it suffered much more long term damage from nukes. Or maybe it was just a particularly awful place to be. The Pitt was also notorious for being a hellhole. Point Lookout was a pretty weird place, kind of a backwoods tribal feel to it. I havent played Fallout 4 so I dont know what civilization is like there..

 

[R.Graves]

Fallout 3's setting was in the Capital Wasteland so maybe it suffered much more long term damage from nukes.

except its considerably less damaged considering how nearly all cites (apart from, conveniently, the famous ones) have been reduced to ash or metal skeletons on the west coast whereas on the east coast the whole of DC seems to be almost entirely intact.

The Pitt was also notorious for being a hellhole

the pitt has an in-lore reason for being the way it is and is fallout 3's only saving grace.

Or maybe it was just a particularly awful place to be.

so no unifying government or some other group formed or took power in 200 years because "it sucks?"

keep in mind as it stands the capital wasteland has almost no history and what little it does have (rockopolis being the literal only example of history in the CW.) seems to have happened within the last 10-20 years. the history of how some towns were founded kind of exist but seem to have, again, happened within the last 20 years. hell little lamplight was founded as the bombs fell but the way its society functions means it can't be more than 20 years old. woops.

what we have is a game where the bombs dropped and then NOTHING happened in 200 years.

 

[mannawyadden]

Rivet City was founded in 2239, but that's still only 38 years before the start of the game. I'm having issues finding when Megaton was founded. But it's true, most settlements in the area seem to be relatively recent and/or have no history to speak of.

I agree that the lack of development after such a long timeframe is strange and makes little sense. One thing to note is that the land itself contains very little flora and fauna. Most of the landscape is just dead, compared to previous games which had plants and crops. Maybe the area could have been very irradiated like the Glow since DC would've been such a high priority target, mostly uninhabitable to humans until relatively recent times?

At least a unifying government did eventually try to come take over - the Enclave. Lyons' Brotherhood also seemed to be trying to throw their weight around, but lack of manpower, fighting on too many fronts, and the split with the Outcasts severely limited their effectiveness.

Speaking of the Outcasts...at least Fallout 3 acknowledges that their knights in shining armor, heroic versions of the Brotherhood of Steel are not in line with the pre-existing lore, and created the Outcast faction to represent the true West Coast Brotherhood mentality. I believe one NPC says that Lyons is a traitor and should be executed by firing squad if he ever shows his face to the elders in the West.

 

[R.Graves]

Maybe the area could have been very irradiated like the Glow since DC would've been such a high priority target, mostly uninhabitable to humans until relatively recent times?

see now you're just using headcanon to justify bad writing. and when something is this bad why bother trying to come up with excuses?

i could say "maybe bigtown sends their children to LL" but with how bigtown barely exists due to constant SM raiding parties and how there's literally no indication that they do that in game i'm left to the conclusion that it doesn't make sense because bethesda is shit at worldbuilding.

 

[Valwin]

Rivet City was founded in 2239, but that's still only 38 years before the start of the game. I'm having issues finding when Megaton was founded. But it's true, most settlements in the area seem to be relatively recent and/or have no history to speak of.

I agree that the lack of development after such a long timeframe is strange and makes little sense. One thing to note is that the land itself contains very little flora and fauna. Most of the landscape is just dead, compared to previous games which had plants and crops. Maybe the area could have been very irradiated like the Glow since DC would've been such a high priority target, mostly uninhabitable to humans until relatively recent times?

At least a unifying government did eventually try to come to take over - the Enclave. Lyons' Brotherhood also seemed to be trying to throw their weight around, but lack of manpower, fighting on too many fronts, and the split with the Outcasts severely limited their effectiveness.

Speaking of the Outcasts...at least Fallout 3 acknowledges that their knights in shining armor, heroic versions of the Brotherhood of Steel are not in line with the pre-existing lore, and created the Outcast faction to represent the true West Coast Brotherhood mentality. I believe one NPC says that Lyons is a traitor and should be executed by firing squad if he ever shows his face to the elders in the West.

Megaton was founded by the survivors of the plane so i would say days after the bombs making one of the first post-war towns

about the lack of development one thing is been near the coast and other is been so inland like capital wasteland is

see now you're just using headcanon to justify bad writing. and when something is this bad why bother trying to come up with excuses?

i could say "maybe bigtown sends their children to LL" but with how bigtown barely exists due to constant SM raiding parties and how there's literally no indication that they do that in game i'm left to the conclusion that it doesn't make sense because bethesda is shit at worldbuilding.

there are issues in 3 the same way there are issues in 1 and 2 not everything makes sense.

What is clear is that one side of the nation was better off than the other

West seems to be recovering fast while east to center is going slowly probably because they are so in land.

It seems a great thing about Fallout is how much discussion and debate it can spawn. The fans are very passionate on all sides and if the answers were all laid out in an obvious way, there would be nothing to talk about.

The 200 year timeframe for Fallout 3 is pretty bad at first glance. They might have been trying to put a lot of geographical and chronological distance between 2 and 3, but expecting me to believe there's still packaged food in the Super Duper Mart right next to Megaton asking a lot. Requires a lot of suspension of disbelief or head canon gymnastics to believe.

Fallout 3's setting was in the Capital Wasteland so maybe it suffered much more long term damage from nukes. Or maybe it was just a particularly awful place to be. The Pitt was also notorious for being a hellhole. Point Lookout was a pretty weird place, kind of a backwoods tribal feel to it. I havent played Fallout 4 so I dont know what civilization is like there..

I mean you could say the same about Fallout 1 and why am i still finding NukaCola and others package foods around?

I think the center to the east of the USA was hit hard and people have trouble with it. i mean the only big government that almost happen was the Commonwealth Provisional Government.

Now let's get to 76 were West Virginia for the first years of the war had a working State the government was working something that i find amazing then the scorge hit

But just show you how unluky the east seems to be.

 

[R.Graves]

the same way there are issues in 1 and 2 not everything makes sense.

admittedly 2 is a bit of dumpster fire at times but the only problem i ever found in 1 is that its not clear what people in necropolis eat. compare that to 3's everything.

I mean you could say the same about Fallout 1 and why am i still finding NukaCola and others package foods around?

i guess. except the game's description of those items makes it clear that they're pretty foreign to the layman and aren't really viable forms of sustenance. also 84 vs 200 is a big difference when talking about how long food would last.

Now let's get to 76 were West Virginia for the first years of the war had a working State the government was working something that i find amazing then the scorge hit

lol at even acknowledging 76

I think the center to the east of the USA was hit hard and people have trouble with it.

again obviously not considering how in tact the architecture is in comparison the the west. even wooden houses have barely suffered any damage.

in case you need reminding what nukes to to wooden houses:

What is clear is that one side of the nation was better off than the other

no what's clear is that whoever's writing for the east coast (*cough* emil *cough*)

either has no idea what universe he's writing in or just doesn't give a shit.

 

[Valwin]

admittedly 2 is a bit of dumpster fire at times but the only problem i ever found in 1 is that its not clear what people in necropolis eat. compare that to 3's everything.

Rats or moles atleast that was the idea i got when i was there in sewers

i guess. except the game's description of those items makes it clear that they're pretty foreign to the layman and aren't really viable forms of sustenance. also 84 vs 200 is a big difference when talking about how long food would last.

I never felt in 3 or 4 that such items are the only thing people eat and thats how they only survive

lol at even acknowledging 76

Like it or not is canon it does 90% of things bad but there is a 10% of cool ideas and lore stuff in it.

again obviously not considering how in tact the architecture is in comparison the the west. even wooden houses have barely suffered any damage.

But fallout series nukes are more about the after effects than blast efects as the series name is Fallout not Blastout

 

[R.Graves]

Rats or moles atleast that was the idea i got when i was there in sewers

that's not enough to sustain an entire vault's population and besides the rats kill the ghouls because ghouls are piss weak.

I never felt in 3 or 4 that such items are the only thing people eat and thats how they only survive

doesn't matter how you feel fact is that's the only food thats ever seen or mentioned in game.

Like it or not is canon

official canon isn't god. if somethings batshit retarded it can and should be outright ignored by the fanbase and future entries.

 

[KingArthur]

Fallout 1's setting somehow looks better than Fallout 3's setting, even though there's an 116 year gap. Fallout 3's setting is a colossal failure because it doesn't take into account that if people are still struggling this hard 200 years after the bombs fell, they should all be dead. At least in Fallout 1 it makes more sense for the things to be in the way they are because it's been 84 years, not 200.

Even if Fallout 3's setting was in the same as Fallout 1 (which it isn't, people seem somehow happy), the setting wouldn't make any sense to still be in the state it is in.

That’s because in F1 humanity is rebuilding; in F3 Beth was like “trash fucking everywhere = post-apoc durhurrr”

 

[Norzan]

The "East Coast was probably hit harder than the West" theory gets thrown out of the window when Fallout 4 looks better than Fallout 3 and it's just been a few years since that game. Same for the ground to be too much irradiated to grows crops, when Fallout 4 shows people growing crops.

Specially if even in the absolute worst case of nuclear fallout, it wouldn't take over 150+ years for the area to become livable, it would take much less time for that. Sure, places like the Glow or Vault 34 could still exist, but large chunks of territory would have its radiation mostly gone in less time than that. So, no matter how hard the East would be hit by the bombs, it wouldn't take over 150 years for it to be livable.

The East Coast wasn't hit harder than the West, it's just Bethesda didn't thought through about how the setting would be presented. And i recall that Fallout 3 was actually going to be 20 years after the bombs fell (which would make a lot more sense), but probably decided to make further from Fallout 2 as an excuse to reuse BoS, Enclave, the Super Mutants and all the other stuff they recycled from the first two games. Because if they did make 20 years later, they would have to come up with new things and that's a big no-no for Bethesda.

 

[Gizmojunk]

For Example, super mutants have the tendency to be pretty hostile to anything that's not them and someone been in receiving end of that could call them evil.

It is possible to visit and explore the Mariposa military base, interact with the super mutants, and then leave; without firing a shot.

Even Harry can be reasoned with. Some Supermutants ignore the PC, others do attack on sight; and some are nuts... but that's to be expected.

 

[mannawyadden]

see now you're just using headcanon to justify bad writing.

official canon isn't god. if somethings batshit retarded it can and should be outright ignored by the fanbase and future entries.

Some use headcanon to fill plot holes or justify poor writing, others use it to ignore things that they don't like. Both things are fine to do.

 

[R.Graves]

Both things are fine to do.

yeah on a small scale. but you'd hafta headcanon the entire game away in fallout 3's case. if you've gotta make excuses for literally the whole game then what value does it have really?

 

[Risewild]

Fallout 1 manual: "Kit includes a Basic Replicator Unit. Just add water"

Fallout Bible 6: "The GECK isn't really a replicator, it just contained seeds"

Fallout 2: "A GECK is the resource for rebuilding civilization after the bomb. Just add water and stir."

Fallout Bible 6: "The tribals were invoking the GECK as a panacea for all their problems ... it's not the miracle maker they considered it to be."

Fallout 3: "The G.E.C.K. will collapse all matter within its given radius and recombine it "

Wikia says "The Fallout Bible by Chris Avellone is not canon, but serves as a useful commentary on the first two games."

There seems to be a big debate on what the actual content of the GECK is. It is also possible that the GECK in Fallout 3 is a different version than the one in previous games.

Fallout Bible was made to clarify confusions like that. fallout Bible was to fix lore breaks/holes from the games.
So what the Fallout Bible says it's the final word from the devs.

Unfortunately, you'll never see something like that from Bethesda, that's for sure.

Also, Bethesda didn't make the Bible not canon. This is (as usual) bullshit from the Wikia. Chris said that now that Bethesda owns the rights, we shouldn't take the Bible as canon, but Bethesda does consider Fallout Bible canon, since they mentions several stuff in their own games (and New Vegas) that were only mentioned in the Bible (for a quick example, Vault 106, which I think you said it really left an impression on you came from the Fallout Bible), Todd Howard said they went thought the Fallout Bible when making Fallout 3:

We also went through all the original source material, as well as the "Fallout Bible," put together by Chris Avellone, whose work is always fantastic.

And Emil Pagliarulo said he read the Fallout Bible several times and even slept with it under his pillow while writing Fallout 3:

So, Bethesda never said that the Fallout Bible wasn't canon, they explicitly said that Fallout Tactics is semi-canon and provided a list of stuff that isn't canon from it, they also said Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel wasn't canon at all, but never said anything about any other previous games or the Bible, while admitting to using it and including stuff from it on their games.

Sterilizing them = making the human race go extinct = eradicate humanity

Not really, Super Mutants are the next evolutionary step for humans. That is why FEV means Forced Evolutionary Virus. The Virus just accelerates human evolution, unfortunately it's not perfect and makes Super Mutants sterile (which the Master wasn't aware).
"Original" humans are humans and Super Mutants are evolved humans. Super Mutants don't stop being humans, they also don't lose their identity like in Fallout 3. Also Super Mutants have a chance of getting smarter than they were, after evolving. Only a few specimens got less smart, and the Master was looking for the reason for that IIRC, so he could try and fix it.
People who volunteer to be evolved will be evolved, those who are violent against the Master and the Super Mutants will be killed as a self-defense act, those that are peaceful and refuse to be evolved will be sterilized so they can't continue to breed a race that will wage future wars.
Again, Super Mutants are still humans, but in a higher evolutionary stage. A stage that evolved to be tougher, stronger, have a much higher life expectancy (well past 100 years old), immune to radiation and all diseases. A more suitable human specimen to live and prosper on the wasteland without the risk of creating future wars.

 

[RangerBoo]

That’s because in F1 humanity is rebuilding; in F3 Beth was like “trash fucking everywhere = post-apoc durhurrr”

I think Bethesda didn't catch the sarcasm and took this advice literally.

 

[Walpknut]

Fallout 4: I gotta pick up trash so I can build a gun that will let me kill things to get exp to get a Perk that will let me pick more trash so I can get more trash.

It's like Heroine addiction but without the euphoria.