Russian-Ukrainian war

[Sub-Human]

It looks like Russians have started the raid on Ukrainian's base in Sevastopol.

http://crime.in.ua/news/20140303/shturm-wms

Which one, Russian or Ukrainian?

Russian regime. Look at the economy of the country. Far worse than it had been in 2008 following the Georgian conflict, and the purchasing power is at its lowest level - lower than in 2009, the aftermath of the financial crisis. The Russian stock market has dropped by 13%, companies have lost billions of rubles each. Didn't people vote for Putin because he offered some sort of stability (as opposed to the 90s banditism, economic defaults, wars)? It looks like the country is sliding back to this post-Soviet rubble.

And this is before the war even officially began. If Putin doesn't pull the troops out as soon as possible - how much will the common Russian taxpayer suffer?

 

[Ilosar]

It looks like Russians have started the raid on Ukrainian's base in Sevastopol.

http://crime.in.ua/news/20140303/shturm-wms

Which one, Russian or Ukrainian?

Russian regime. Look at the economy of the country. Far worse than it had been in 2008 following the Georgian conflict, and the purchasing power is at its lowest level - lower than in 2009, the aftermath of the financial crisis. The Russian stock market has dropped by 13%, companies have lost billions of rubles each. Didn't people vote for Putin because he offered some sort of stability (as opposed to the 90s banditism, economic defaults, wars)? It looks like the country is sliding back to this post-Soviet rubble.

And this is before the war even officially began. If Putin doesn't pull the troops out as soon as possible - how much will the common Russian taxpayer suffer?

Someone linked an article claiming Putin doesn't give a rat's ass about this, and I can see where they come from. Putin, ultimately, doesn't stay in power because he improved the standards of living of the average Russian (which remain much lower than anything in Europe), he stays in power by making it look like he's the only one who can give the Russian nation it's ''pride'' back, that he is a ''strong'' man and all that nonsense. A good portion of his population doesn't seem to care that much about wealth and democracy, prefering much more to appear strong on the international scene even if in reality the Russian military is a bit of a paper tiger. And of course Putin knows that knowledge is power (KGB background, ho!) and does his best to control information within the country, and by the looks of it he's doing a scarily good job too.

At this point I'm fairly convinced anyone in the world wih a passing interest and a functionning internet connection can know more about the real state of affairs in Russia than your average Russian himself. This is not to say they are idiots, but the very nature of a dictatorship ensures real problems are swept under the rugs while the head honcho is busy flexing his dick at anyone who cares to look.

 

[lujo]

Yeah, that's true. Tons of brainwashed Russian kids on any MobA forums, very strange notions about life, the universe and such.

History has shown that it's easier to convince a nation on a downward spiral to go to war - it simplifies things and gives the lower classess a romantic notion of a chance to distinguish themselves and contribute, a sense of pride and inclusion, and, well, a military pay and pension. Putin would have no problems keeping a war going for a while, as long as it's small enough.

But Putin isn't really looking for a war, especially not one with the rest of the world. He does have to not lose the black sea to a random "culture flip", though. Europe knows this, and a ton of Russian money is in EU banks so they really don't want to get busy with each other, so they won't even bother trying to stop him resolving the situation in his favour. If the US felt like they could take him on, they would've allready - Russia has been arming everyone they fought (but didn't arm themselves beforehand), so you'd think kicking it's ass would be a logical move. But just about everyone they've fought was to manouver into position where they can actually get a decisive drop on Russia, and they don't have that so the whole Ukraine bussiness was a "Hail Mary" if-it-works-it-works-hell-if-I'll-actually-do-anything kind of deal.

 

[AskWazzup]

Lol, it seems Putin "recieved" a letter from yanukovich, urging him to use weapons for the sake of Ukrainian people.

 

[TheChosen1]

So much for my vacation plans in Crimea...

Ukraine is currently controlled by a Fascist group that will kill or seriously maim anyone who doesn't speak Ukranian or isn't a "pure" Ukranian, Russia sent troops there to protect the Russian citizens that live there.

 

[Ilosar]

So much for my vacation plans in Crimea...

Ukraine is currently controlled by a Fascist group that will kill or seriously maim anyone who doesn't speak Ukranian or isn't a "pure" Ukranian, Russia sent troops there to protect the Russian citizens that live there.

Yeah, sure, and the Soviets were dropping bread on the Finns during the winter war, not bombs, honest! The brainwahsing is strong in this one.

 

[naossano]

If you listen the previous president, he didn't left his office, the snipers never shot people in kiev and the policemen were unarmed.

There are obviously some fake videos about snipers, while all the 80 dead bodies are people that commited suicide.

 

[13pm]

Ukraine is currently controlled by a Fascist group that will kill or seriously maim anyone who doesn't speak Ukranian or isn't a "pure" Ukranian, Russia sent troops there to protect the Russian citizens that live there.

Oh, hello there, Mr. Zombie.

 

[Akratus]

So much for my vacation plans in Crimea...

Ukraine is currently controlled by a Fascist group that will kill or seriously maim anyone who doesn't speak Ukranian or isn't a "pure" Ukranian, Russia sent troops there to protect the Russian citizens that live there.

Aha! Communist.
How much are you getting paid, aye comrade?

Spoiler

btw im kidding

Spoiler

To be serious, I really think there's no use picking sides or making sweeping general statements about any side. I lament the fact that these events are happening but we should not be heading for a blame game.

 

[lujo]

So much for my vacation plans in Crimea...

Ukraine is currently controlled by a Fascist group that will kill or seriously maim anyone who doesn't speak Ukranian or isn't a "pure" Ukranian, Russia sent troops there to protect the Russian citizens that live there.

Son, if you've ever been to a major protest, out on the street with tons of outraged people one of the things you notice first is that there's litteraly all sorts of people there. In any country. When the shit hits the fan - everybody on the bottom gets affected, so all sort of people hit the street. Theres grandparents, theres kids, there's violent football hooligans (they like a good riot), there's peacefull footbal fans (only riot they'd show up for), there's communists, faschist, democrats, libertarians, homeless people, jobless people, people who feel guilty about having too much, war vets, students, layed off workers... Take any protest anywhere. Most of the time the only people not out there are wage slaves, people who fear too much for their kids, corrupt people, complacent people and... zombies.

So if there are right wingers who got a bit popular in Ukraine, that's not strange. But it's not very likely they control anything, and the only realy way for them to be taken seriously is if someone invades their country. Then people panic, and all the paranoid bullshit becomes a little bit more true. If there isn't a crisis, most people get fed up with them pretty fast, and if they do in fact control anything they'd go down worse than Janukovic.

 

[naossano]

I am maybe too overly pollitically open minded, but let's say it's true, let's say Ukraine is governed by far right people.

It's still doesn't provide enough reasons to invade a sovereign country.

Far right or communism are not crimes by itselves. Even if many communists & far right government indeed commited crimes, it is not the form of government that is a crime on itself. You have to tell me which crimes the new born ukraine government commited.

 

[Gaspard]

I'll pitch in with this observation:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/foghorn/guns-russians-ukraine/

 

[naossano]

Damn. Are those guys serious ?
We are maybe on the verge of WW3 and those guys only care about what kind of guns russians use ?

 

[Crni Vuk]

.....Which also means noone ought to be mad enough to back Ukraine up, no matter how worthy the cause otherwise. Putin wants as much dominion over the Black sea and as much desolate backwater between him and Europe. I just hope he settles for just Crimea or even half of Ukraine and doesn't decide to simply remake the USSR again....

Which is what he wants - disunity and inaction from the EU. The more slack on his leash, the more shit like this you will see in the future and if it goes far enough... well, you read the history books and the man (Putin) did show many hints at admiring Stalin (for example ordering Russian school history books to be "revised" on the subject of Stalins regime).

It's also pretty ridiculous that no sanctions will be placed on them, for pretty much anything they do. It's a disgrace...

Germany gets 40-60% of its gas from Russia. We are drug addicts. And Russia is the dealer.

 

[Gaspard]

Damn. Are those guys serious ?
We are maybe on the verge of WW3 and those guys only care about what kind of guns russians use ?

Actually several of the "soldiers" in the pictures wear civilian-esque clothing, but wield expensive weapons used by the RF military. Check out those dudes in fake adidas track gear and ski masks and fucking cannons in their arms.

 

[valcik]

Germany gets 40-60% of its gas from Russia.

Yup, oil and gas export is very important for Russian economy.
As for the amount of import, Russian oil consist of less hydrocarbones than Norwegian, for instance. Those light oils with somewhat lesser quality are cheaper; that's one of the reasons why most countries are importing the more expensive Norwegian heavy oil as little as they can, depending mostly on cheaper Russian stuff.

 

[zegh8578]

that's one of the reasons why most countries are importing the more expensive Norwegian heavy oil as little as they can, depending mostly on cheaper Russian stuff.

We sell fine gourmet oil! Obviously, it's not for everyone!

We are maybe on the verge of WW3 and those guys only care about what kind of guns russians use?

German explosion into all directions, during WW2 was based on other ideas (even if similar, they were extremely romantic ideas of "True White people!" and shit like that), different weaponry (no missile-barrages), and extremely wasteful military tactics. Despite making comparisons myself, I honestly don't think the situation can really be compared, beyond making a strong example so to illustrate the serious potential of a situation. Putin wants to be a man who is "strong!" etc, in other words - his main concern is to stay in power. He likes power! Power is his hobby. He can have power if he causes pain and horror somewhere else, but he won't have power if he truly, genuinely ends up like Hitler, a charred corpse with a bullet lodged in the brain. It is very unlikely that he will try to "conquer Europe" or something like that, because it cannot possibly end well, manpower, technology, it is all stacked steeply against Russia's odds to go against NATO on it's own. It was also steeply against Germany's odds, except Hitler was an optimistic idealist moron basing his strategies in "Relax, they're only sub-human, they cannot possibly win!"
(And yes, Hitler was a dumbass. Everyone likes to say "he was eeevil - but brilliant!" no, he wasn't brilliant. His "blitz krieg" was not a stroke of genius, but merely a man asking for "the biggest biggest biiiiiigggest bang-bang-machine!!!" to be used in quantity. Basically, like asking a 5-year old how he plans to fight his war. Blitzkrieg was only successful because it was unexpected. Unexpected because it was expensive, and ridiculous in the long run - proven by history.)

 

[naossano]

zegh8578

Hitler was an overconfident leader of a country that lost wars before he took power.
He even took power thanks to the frustration over a previous defeat.

On the other hand, i don't think Russia ever lost a military war.
They lost some battle, lost some entire big cities. They idealogy lost the cold war.
But in the end, i don't thing any army has ever managed to completly destroy them in centuaries.
On the military area, they always managed to fight back, even agains't Adolf Hitler or Napoleon Bonaparte.
I assume Putin has no interest in a full scale war, especially now that everyone has the nuclear bomb.
But, at the same time, it seems unlikely that Russia could have fear of being defeated, considering they were never defeated before.

 

[BonusWaffle]

There are certain things about russia I try to keep in mind. Because of its geography Russia (the core muscovy region) is very difficult to defend. The only real way to protect themselves from being conquered constantly is to control more defensible land farther out. Russia has been trying to do this as long as there has been russia. The problem with the idea of controlling as much land as possible is that all the people under your control are not going to receive the same quality of life, and if it reaches a certain low they will not allow themselves to be subjugated to russian will. This is why russias history is filled with very strong leaders like tzars and why the communist leaders so quickly turned to totalitarianism. These behaviors are tied to russias survival, and because of their massive nuclear arsenal the entire worlds survival is tied to russias survival.

So they invaded Crimea. Crimea is a very strategically important location when it comes to projecting military power over eastern europe. While ukraine was under russias thumb, it was all well and good, but if they are going to stop supporting russian interests the only possible thing russia can do is take crimea back. Russia took a massive blow here and i just dont think its prudent to push a nuclear power like that. From what ive read, the majority of the crimean people are okay with russian rule, and getting involved with it would be foolish and probably more truly aggressive than what russia did.

 

[Sub-Human]

On the other hand, i don't think Russia ever lost a military war.

...it seems unlikely that Russia could have fear of being defeated, considering they were never defeated before.

They were overrun by the Mongols and enslaved for centuries, one of the primer examples of Russians losing a war.

The Russian military is still being developed, in a real conflict with NATO, only the professional troops could deal a blow - the conscripts are almost entirely worthless, whatnot with their lack of proper training, equipment, motivation, and equally unfitting officers. This is beside the fact that the Russian economy is too dependent on export of natural resources and trade with foreign nations, so they will be crippled well before the first rounds are fired.