welsh said:
From my understanding he will be tried by the Iraqis under their rule of law. Since each rule of law is determined by political processes, than if the rule of law is not fair, blame the iraqis.
Problem of course is that the new Iraqi government is filled with American puppets. And so is their court.
The trial will not be for a year or so, and I think it uncertain at best to see what kind of court it will be. I would guess it will be fairer than that. By then there will be elections and new judges.
welsh said:
but alec, you're also talking out of your ass.
Oh yeah? Well you try talking out of your ass for a change, you'll see it's not as easy as it seems.
Mostly just brain farts then.
welsh said:
The US was the one that pushed the Nuremburg tribunals after World War 2, when the Russians wanted to shoot the Nazis and the Brits wanted to hand the Germans to the Russians (so as not to get their hands dirty).
The result wasn't much different, now was it? It just costed a hell of a lot more. And it was useful propaganda for the USA: "We are civilized people. We know the rules of the game and we'll play the game according to those rules and more of that blah-blah-blah-yada-yada-yada-we-love-Godot-crap."
Alec, sometimes I wonder if you’ve got anything meaningful to say. Just propaganda? Are you so cynical or do you just run off at the mouth without the slightest responsibility for the content of what you say?
All things considering yes, it was different. Don’t forgot, not everyone got the death penalty. It also was the first time a trial like that was ever done, and set the model of other war crime trials to follow. The Nuremburg principles are some of the bedrock principles of international criminal law now. And that was because the US believed in the creation of a just and fair international legal order. Something the Europeans had never done.
And don’t forget, some got acquitted.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/verdicts.html
as were other people who were accused of war crimes and tried after the war.
Or does that not matter?
Sure the Tokyo tribunals were less fair and more subject to the claim of “victors justice” but were the war crimes trials a good idea? If not, then what would you suggest?
welsh said:
And this is why the US won't sign on the criminal court. Not because there are americans who might be prosecuted, but because the criminal court could be used as a vehicle to launch attacks against american leaders.
In the mean time, though, you Americans are being judged by muslim terrorists who only know the death penalty. So why not sign on the criminal court and get judged by "civilized" people, eh? People who know the rules of the game and so on...
It was Europeans who came up with the term “civilized peoples” as being a requisite for recognition under international law. But then those were the days of European colonialism.
As for the muslim terrorists, muslim terrorists have been murdering hostages for years. They did it in Beirut to university professors who were there to educate the Lebanese.
Are these people who know the rules of the game? What game? The law of might makes right? Is that a better law than one of international human rights, or is that because you and those like you can do no better in your cynicism or laziness. It’s easy to preach and to point fingers after all, but that’s just cheap talk.
welsh said:
Of course "with all that bullshit this wonderful nation is causing in the world todays," is nothing compared to the wonderful shit Europe did throughout the world in it's days, and then it's willingness to do little to make the world a better place.
No one should stand trial for the wonderful shit their forefathers did.
How old, should these fore fathers be. Congo was only in 1965,and after that you sent in paratroopers to maintain your neo-imperial holdings, and thus keep the blacks down. But of course your grandfather remembers that the blacks were never really human being in the eyes of most Belgians after all. Or what about those things that Belgian companies continue to do today? And Belgium is not alone.
I'm talking here and now, welsh. And according to a lot of people who are alive and kicking today, you Americans are the bad guys this time. And you will get your asses kicked sooner or later. 9/11 was just a meagre prologue. I think you know that just as well as I do.
I hope you are not recommending another 9/11 Alec, because after all before those Saudis came to the US they became radicalized in Europe.
See
http://www.law/syr.edu/PDFs/02Domes.pdf
Also
http://freedomhouse.org/media/0501nr.htm
Or you might want to read Thomas Friedman’s look at the terrorists- in Longitudes and attitudes : exploring the world after September 11
Of course it’s easier to point at someone else as the bad guy. Never mind that the terrorists in 9/11 were radicalized in Europe, including Belgium. Why, because in Belgium a girl with a veil can’t get a job. Sure we have our radicals here too, but generally muslims are accepted in this society.
That’s one of the differences if you look behind the rhetoric to the reality. Something you seem to fail to do. Why? Because it’s all talk and no action. Bitch bitch bitch. But do something? No. That’s not your style.
So someone else will kick our asses sooner or later? Probably. But who? China, a new Russia? Will they make the world a better place?
Or will the US have to come to the defense of Europe again. Two world wars and one Cold War, plus the mess in former Yugoslavia- that's a pretty solid record of involvement in the US to protect Europe and one day we will have to pay for it.
Perhaps the terrorists might fly plans into Belgium. Why not? You deserve it as much as the US does. You buy their gas and support their dictators. You sell cheap shit imports, you take their money but don’t give them jobs. Your financiers bankroll dictators and your arms merchants sell them guns.
Most of the muslims I know in the US can find jobs, can worship as they please, can send their kids to school and can have their own businesses and can be happy when their kids do well. I know. I teach some of these kids. Some of them are my friends.
But of course the US is such a terrible place compared to Europe. We are the EVIL ones. While Europe can bitch and moan and yet continue to make a profit. Because after all, you are benefiting for this too. In a globalized world, bud, you and us, we’re together on this.
welsh said:
What people in the developed world rarely realize is that, to a large extent, your quality of life, you're precious standard of living, and you progressive life style has come from the deprivations across most of the undeveloped world. The Netherlands is no different.
Ancient history for all I care: the Romans did it, the Egyptians did it, the ants are still doing it today.
And so are the Europeans. But they just don’t like to talk about it. Not when they have big bad America to point a finger too.
But at least we have learned from our mistakes.
When? When you sent “mercenaries” to Congo or killed Lumumba? When you turned your back to what British Petroleum does or Royal Dutch Shell?
Did you really learn? Or did you just pass the buck of blame to someone else?
The sad fact is that Americans have proved to be very eager history students, not really knowing when to leave the past for what it is. Hence, modern colonialism.
Modern colonialism? Wait a second, it wasn’t more than a few years ago when the African kicked you Belgians out and you went back in force – because you have to protect the mining companies. Or doesn’t the capital that you send South count for nothing? Or maybe those illegal diamond that flow through Amsterdam- because once a war-diamond is cut you really can’t tell the difference and no one cuts the diamonds like they do Amsterdam.
Trying to up their precious standard of living even more by robbing the "undeveloped" world and americanizing everything non-American. Seems worse to me, especially for a so-called "civilized" nation.
Are you telling me Europe doesn’t do this? So France’s back yard in Africa doesn’t exist. Hell Alec, I am reading French scholars on Africa now and they can see it even if you don’t. If the US is in business, it’s based on what it saw in the US, and the worst part of the developing world, Africa, sends most of its exports to Europe. Bro, that’s your sphere of influence.
Oh, but I forgot, you don’t want the responsibility.
welsh said:
But it is comments like this that make most Americans pissed off at the vacuous morality of many Europeans. For while the US has done a lot of damage to the world, it has also done a lot of good, more I think than Europe managed during it's hey day. Nor should the current president be held representative of much of the rest of the world.
I really do have to ask: what good exactly has the USA done for the world? No really, do tell me. And don't start about WW2 again, because that's gettting boring, and if that's the only thing you guys did to "save" the world, I'm not afraid to say I wish Germany won.
I could see where having a dictator tell you what to do would make life easier for you, Alec. This way you could blame him for everything and not do anything for yourself. Democracy and responsibility are tough things really, especially for those weak of character.
Oh, so what did the US do- let’s say- the UN, Charter and the whole thing was done in New York, and we had to make an effort to get the Russians to join since they liked politics in the Old School (European) Way. We pushed you folks to decolonize because after all you never really respected your colonized people are human beings. Doubt me, just check the number of evolves that you find in Congo. Ok, let’s see what else, we helped fight the world’s infections and generously gave of our people. We kept the commies from giving you communist dictatorship and spilled a lot of blood in the process. We helped build a stable international and liberal order, which was good for the developed countries but have left the undeveloped countries behind- still your Belgians like your quality of life right? Upon that liberal international order one sees a global economic order arise. The US supported the rise of Europe and protected you, and when countries went broke because they can’t pay, we bailed them out. And although we supported dictators through out the Cold War, because they were better than communists dictatorships, we also pushed for democratization after the Cold War was over and let dictators like Doe and Mobutu to crumble away. We created a vast fleet that protected the seas and made it possible that you didn’t have to waste your money on military forces but could grow fat and happy on Dutch beer and chocolates, and thus made possible the EU (for there could be no EU without NATO). We stuck our necks out, sending soldiers to die in all corners of the world over pieces of dirt we had little interest in. And we also stuck our necks out so that when the Chinese premier came to the US and asked, “are you willing to sacrifice Los Angeles for Taipai” meaning, how far is the US willing to go to protect the Taiwanese, at the risks of Nuclear weapons, we told him to fuck off and try it and we’ll nuke you into the stone age, you lousey commie fucks. And a lot of us don’t even like Chinese food.
Do we need to do more?
Has the US done terrible things? Yes. Have we done great things, often unselfish things, yes.
Should we expect vindication or gratification for them, no.
Why, because because you take pride in what you do, and doing the right thing. And if people don’t see that, fuck em, what matters is that you did the right thing.
Oh wait: you mean Coca-Cola and McDonalds, right? You mean getting the Soviet Union on its knees so that it would become a poor, undeveloped nation again?
Coke- world’s most popular drink. And no two countries with McDonalds have ever gone to war with each other. I actually think McDonalds has done more for World Peace than MX missiles. (Let’s not forget Ronald McDonald House).
Are there no Belgian companies that have done evil things, of do you turn on the blinders for the Europeans and not the Americans.
Or do you just bitch, bitch, bitch because you can’t do anything else?
Or are you talking about saving the environment by not signing the Kyoto agreement?
A crappy agreement.
No, of course not, you are talking about all the cheap-ass plastic garbage you guys produce and export, right?
Vs the cheap ass plastic garbage you guys produce and export? Or the nuclear waste you dump?
The murdering of thousands of indians?
I thought you didn’t care about ancient history. But if you are to say that, let’s be honest, Belgium killed a hell of a lot more Africans than we killed Indians. At least our Indians own casinos now. Your Congolese own only civil war, disease and poverty.
And putting the rest of them in "amusement parks"?
WTF? Amusement parks? They own casinos these days.
The computer operating system on most of the world’s computers making the use of the computer assessable to more people and useful in more applications than ever before?
What, Europeans don’t eat cheese, sausage, meat? You just do it all with more red wine.
What, now you are against freedom of expression? Gangsta Rap owes itself to protest music from the inner city? Are you against that? Perhaps you should get rid of crappy Euro-pop first.
one of the great achievements of mankind. Let’s not also forget the exploration of our solar system, the hubble telescope, support for the international space station, discovery of other galaxies, and all the scientific stuff attached. But why stop there. Don’t forget the deep oceans as well, or even the micro-organisms, infectious diseases, physics. Much of the research done to win many of the Nobel prizes were done in the US.
Holy crapola, if you ask me.
Yeah, says you.
welsh said:
Ok, Kharn and a few others are going to go off and say "Hey you can't judge the Europe of the past." Right. But then again, we can judge the Europe of today by what it fails to do today as well. Hell, Europe can't even stop the attrocities in it's own backyard and when it comes to showing leadership in actually doing something, Europe often looks to the US to take a leadership role, than bitches and moans about it.
That's because Europe is a contraption that doesn't work properly yet, and probably never will.
Not if you keep screwing each other.
Hell, maybe it's even because we don't have an ocean that separates us from the East and we have to watch our steps.
The East? You don’t like Eastern Europeans? The Russians? Do they scare you?
Or maybe it's because our military is crap?
Perhaps but it allowed you to spend lots of money on development and social services so that Europeans have a better standard of living now than at anytime in their history- of course that was partially bankrolled by the US which provided the security blanket.
Because soon there will be more politicians than actual citizens?
Hope they do more than bitch bitch bitch.
Because all Europe cares about is boosting its economy and becoming another "world power"?
Yes, well, this will allow you to colonize the world again.
Because we're ultimately the puppets of the USA? I don't know. I can only guess. And I'm against Europe, by the way.
Alec, you’re against just about everything, and what’s left is either yourself or stuff you won’t do something for. Really, get off your ass.
Since when are the Europeans puppets of the US? When we told you not to buy oil from the Soviets during the Cold War, you did it. When France bailed on NATO to protect it’s own, it did it. When the Germans recognized Slovenia which got the whole Yugoslavian disaster going, you did it. Who are you kidding?
Why not just take some responsibility for yourself for a change?
Hey we do it all the time. We are constantly looking at ourselves in the mirror and reflecting on our moral compass, whether we are doing the right thing or not. It’s called reflection and responsibility. Try it. You learn something. It’s not painless. Hell it’s not painless in the US to see it’s faults and try to do better. But we do it because the road to being better is through knowing both your faults and virtues, knowing what you believe in and what you will stand for or against. It requires moral courage and character. It’s not easy, but life’s not easy, so put the coffee and cake away and show some balls for a change.
welsh said:
What is it when a country that has the power to act to make the world a better place fails to act?
Incompetence? Fear? Apathy? But at which country are you hinting anyway? (France? French people suck, that's no secret.)
Incompetence can be fixed. Fear can be overcome. Apathy, well that’s your problem. SO you are apathetic but bitchy. No wonder no one takes you seriously. At least the French have attitude.
welsh said:
What do we call it when those same nations can bitch and moan about the state of the world but do little to actually change it?
My best guess would be: discord. Europe=discord.
Excuses are like assholes, everyone has one. But we don’t all live in them.
welsh said:
No offence Alec, but if your sentiments are representative of most Europeans, that you guys are a bunch of pussies.
And I agree. But if your sentiments are representative of most Americans, then you guys have a nation of warmongers, neo-colonialists and fucktards. Now what's worse?
Ok, lets break that down.
Fucktard- From what I have seen of Europeans I can honestly say that the US has no monopoly on that one- so let’s leave that out shall we.
Neo-colonialists- ok, we have done some of that. OF course so has Europe. IN fact we learned it from you. So that makes us even. But no. You see where the US has it’s sphere of influence it actually supports democratization and more liberal values. Where Europe has it’s sphere of influence (Africa) it supports dictators and poverty. Thus when Chirac goes to Africa he can say, “You guys, aren’t quite ready for democracy yet.” While acknowledging that it’s France’s little backyard to exploit at will.
And there are plenty of Belgians who play that game as well. Or are you only looking at the “evil” Americans but not yourself?
War-mongers.- in each case where the US has had to go to War it has had to sell it as necessary for security. I will agree that every once and awhile the US gets aggressive and gets stung for it. But generally speaking the US doesn’t like to go abroad to go to war, and it’s military is based more on the notion of providing a public good of security- keeping sea lanes free (least the Chinese try to take the South China Seas or the Iranians seek to blocade the Strait of Hormuz). Do we use that military- yes. Why, because the US often sees it as necessary for stabilizing the international order. Does the US benefit, yes. DO you, sure. And better, you don’t pay for it in either blood or tax dollars.
Lucky you.
So Americans lose 50,000 men fighting in Korea. We lose 50,000 men in Vietnam, fighting the communists. We lose men in Lebanon, trying to keep it safe, in Yugoslavia, in Afghanistan, in Somalia, in Latin America. That’s the price of security and without that, no global liberal order.
Remember, without NATO there could be no EU.
And no, Americans don’t really like it. We didn’t want to go to Yugoslavia, but the Europeans couldn’t do it without the US. We didn’t want to go to Somalia, but the Somali’s were killing UN aid workers and letting their people starve. We have also sent the marines to Bangledesh to help the victims of typhoon, rescued Europeans in periods of crisis, and provided the infra-structure support and logistics for other operations all over the world. So we try to maximize our military value, which works for you so you don’t have to.
Our blood, your prosperity.
And don’t forget, the blood that gets spilled today- the same type that runs through people on this board from Ellisar who is going to Iraq, to others who were vets, to Malk, who may get drafted, is the same that flowed through their grandfathers who died in Europe in the last big war there, their great grandfathers who died in the big war before that, which ran through their fathers who stood guard during the Cold War, and their brothers who were in the Balkans.
We don’t ask that you be grateful, only that you take a little more responsibility for the world, and if not that, at least stop bitching and moaning.
welsh said:
You bitch and moan, but show little action.
You preach ideals but don't live by them.
You enjoy the fruits of exploitation all over the world, but don't take responsibility the world a better place.
"Bitching" and "moaning" are actions. They mean that we like to use our vocal chords instead of our weapons. And those vocal chords say what our brains and hearts dictate: reason.
= cheap talk.
There is an old expression my Italian “adopted” grandparents used to say- Talk is cheap.
There’s another- action speaks louder than words.
As for preaching ideals and living by them: I haven't got a clue what you're talking about. What ideals?
Freedom! Democracy, Liberty, Fraternity, Property!
And "fruits of exploitation"? Explain. I'd like to know how, for instance, Belgium is exploiting the world. We did so in the past, perhaps (Congo), but nowadays? The only thing we exploit are our own citizens. Which is a bad thing as well, but at least we don't hurt other nations by doing so.
Are you, one of the developed west, not benefiting from the profits of globalization? IS Europe not part of the G-8, the OECD? Don’t you get to sit down in your café, eat cheese and tarts? Do your companies not make profits all over the world? Do you not benefit from the exploitation of undeveloped nations?
Ok, Alec, you are gong to say “that’s not my fault!” Fuck you. You benefit and enjoy it. And you can either take responsibility and do something or grin and enjoy it, or bitch and moan impotently and thus be without any utter significance to this world.
welsh said:
You're right, the US has done terrible things. It has also done great things. Generally it has done more good than bad, and frankly has probably acted more based on a sense of ideals and values than Europe has.
Again: explain what "great" things the USA has done to make the world a better place. (And no WW2 crapola, please, we are well aware of what happened on the sandy beaches of France and so on.) I just don't see it, welsh. I can perfctly imagine a world without the USA. Hell, I wouldn't miss it one bit.
See above.
But Alec, honestly, I think expecting people to be grateful for the things you do for them is just pussy, and Americans shouldn’t. I think a lot of European are grateful for what the US did, but there are limits and I think that’s fair.
But let me tell ya, this fourth of July I was thinking about how much more cool this country was before that asshole got into the White House, and yet, even with dipshit Bush, it’s still a pretty great country.
I love Europe. Don’t get me wrong. My folks come from there and I love visiting. I love the cafes and the charm and the history. I appreciate what you have done for your quality of life, I enjoy talking to the people and visiting and living and working there. Really, Europe is great.
It’s been awhile since I was there but I remember a few things. I especially remember the refugees that people will look down their noses at because they escaped a war-torn country. (We got a lot of those in America and some of those became the parents of lawyers and doctors). I remembered the homeless and the drug addicts in the subways, and I remembered how Western Europeans would point to Eastern Europeans and think, they steal our cars and they ruin our times in the market? I remember how Europeans would look down on Africans and Muslims and treat them as second class. I remember how people would blame the Auslanders for the problems of their society, that they got fat on European social security when in fact many were working jobs like garbage man and kitchen workers that most Europeans wouldn’t take. How they hated the new immigrants. I remember Swiss complaining about how the Jews were suing the banks because the banks didn’t want to return the money they stole from the Jews during the Holocaust. I remember Brits calling Indians niggers and pakis. Or how people were criticizing the Chinese for selling souvernirs to tourists made in China. I remembered the discrimination I saw of European on non-Europeans and how so many of those non-Europeans had so little opportunities. But mostly I remembered the Yugoslavian woman trying to ask for money in a street in Germany and how people ignored her like she was rubbish. That happens in NY too, where you become desensitized to the poor and homeless, but this woman was a war refugee from a war that happened on your doorstep.
So yeah, I love Europe and would love to live or visit. But damn, I am proud of being an American and would never give this country up.
And if with "ideals and values" you mean the fundamentalist Christian ideology that powers all of Amerca's actions, then peh-lease stop basing your actions on that. God hates yanks. He told me last night. "Worst mistake I ever made," He said. Although I'm an atheist, the only thing I could do was nod. So I nodded. And God laughed.
welsh said:
So who are you to judge us?
Well you should know.
But really Alec, you know I have been critical of the church’s influence in the US. But at least we have values. You have said nothing here that is representative except your own bitter cynicism and sarcasm. I hope you have more than that.
But if you are looking at values, well, according to Kissinger, each administration has tried to further the values represented initially by Wilson, as illustrated by his 14 Points-
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918/14points.html
Remember he tried that in Versailles, but the Europeans laughed him out. Even so most of those values were reintroduced after the European order had been destroyed by it’s war and incorporated into the UN Charter under US guidance.
Remember this one-
VII. Belgium, the whole world will agree, must be evacuated and restored, without any attempt to limit the sovereignty which she enjoys in common with all other free nations. No other single act will serve as this will serve to restore confidence among the nations in the laws which they have themselves set and determined for the government of their relations with one another. Without this healing act the whole structure and validity of international law is forever impaired.
Yet another act of US selflessness. Yet this is a country you feel so happy to spit on.
We are your forefathers. It's that simple, really. You are our mutant offspring and we desperately want you to behave. So behave!
You were our fathers. But you kicked us out. We were too poor or too many, and you didn’t care for us. You kept us poor and starving, and you used us for your wars of imperialism and abuse. You denied us opportunity because we were common. So you kicked us out, or we left home. Either way, ours was an intent of building a new and better world.
And we did that.
And we made better what you had done. Where your world is divided by nationalities, we made one unified nation. Where you persecuted for religious reasons, we accept all religions. Where you lived in a system of class relationships, we overcame that so that the poorest can be among the richest.
We took what you had, and we did better. We furthered your industrial revolution and made it part of our lifestyle. We took your notions of liberalism and spread them around the world.
It wasn’t easy, and there were plenty of mistakes, and we lost much blood in the process. But we did better than anywhere else you got your grubby hands on. Because while you sucked the world dry the way a vampire needs new blood, we were stronger.
And when you were sick and dieing, when cancers were gnawing at your bones, we came and our children died for you. We made your rich, and helped you establish a quality of life like you never had, and thus rescued you from the threat of communism that would have led to your own perpetual dictatorship.
And when you were well again you treated us with spite. Perhaps it was jealousy or envy. But so it goes, and again, when the time comes, it will probably the US that once again returns to Europe when you are in need.
And get that fucktard out of your White House, because he's a joke. Really. He makes all of you look like... jokes.
Yes, but please before you preach, heal yourself first.
welsh said:
Responsibility begins at home, brother. And you guys ain't that responsible.
I'd like to believe that responsibility ends at home, actually. It's where humans can relax and where they can stop thinking about all the sad stuff that is going on in the world.
It’s by turning a blind eye to yourselves and the world that you fail to act.
It is this question that America has to constantly face- how far does our responsibility go and what should we do. It is the thing that we wake up to each morning, and yet, seems to be what you, Alec, are so willing to ignore.
