Skyrim doesn't work

[Dr Fallout]

No this is not about how buggy the game is (though it is very buggy) but more of how Skyrim, the country and place cannot realistically sustain itself from the war, dragons and the various bandits and tombs scattered around the land. I'll be pointing out massive flaws in world design and how Skyrim cannot exist as it is depicted in game. Keep in mind I won't be bashing gameplay, characters and quests, nor will I attack the generic barbaric German/Norse influenced world. So let me begin!

1. Economy: From what we see, Skyrim actually lacks a centralized, working economy that can sustain all of Skyrim. The economy that we can see are privatized inns and small mines that lack any real amount of minerals. Unless the inns are heavily taxed there is almost no money going to the jarls, which means they can't hire guards and up keep their cities. Trade is a joke, with one or two ships that only go to three locations in the game, and from the in-game lore Skyrim technically can't work as a country due to the fact that each Jarl acts independently. Skyrim just doesn't have enough money to run their country.

2. Population: The Population of Skyrim is ridiculously small, with very few farmers, innkeepers, traders and normal civilians. However we see a large amount of soldiers and guards, which is slightly strange... what makes it worse is that how can the guards keep hiring and the army recruiting IF the left over population is so small. Each blow against the guards and Stormcloaks (Imperials can escape the first three by getting their resources elsewhere, still lazy) would crush them as they struggle to find more soldiers.

3. Food and Supplies: Doesn't it surprise you how little farms there are scattered across Skyrim? While enough to supply a 'city' or two there just isn't enough food to keep the world supplied. Yet we see multitude of food stuffs in inns and shops. This is a lesser problem because there are a couple of farms but still... not enough to shake off the question that is, where do they get their food? However compared to weapons it becomes void. How do the guards, bandits and armies of Skyrim get their weapons? Blacksmiths right? Yet each city has one or two, which is extremely limited to the number of weapons found. Blackmsiths must be working overtime to keep supplying various customers.

4. Number of Bandits: Isn't it amazing how many bandits there are? So many you would think they equal the Imperials and Stormcloaks? There are. Yet they're pest at best, annoying flies that usually can be swatted away. Most people aren't worry about them, happily waiting for some fool to do the guards work. There are so many bandits that they should be a constant threat, another aspect of Skyrims downfall. People should be scared to go outside and the farms around Whiterun are constantly guarded, not just at random times. If the Bandits allied together they could force out the Imperials and Stormcloaks.

Well that's all for now, please add your own or argue mine. I am quite vague, just providing a brief overview of what I think. Now Morrowind has a very good working world, for all those that have played.

 

[TorontoReign]

This is posted in the wrong area.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Is it? I thought... general discussion... can someone who has authority move this to the correct area?

 

[Courier]

A lot of this is just gameplay/story segregation stuff to be honest. I mean, it would be different if it were like Fallout 3 where they just didn't even make an effort to show where people are getting their food, water, etc. from or how the economy works. Skyrim is more on par with New Vegas in this sense.

Also yeah some of this is actually addressed in the game too, like Skyrim being probably unable to sustain itself for long as an independent nation without collapsing is kind of one of the points made by the Empire.

The reality is just that if they try to make games like this too realistic then like 60% of the map would be farmland, each new stretch more indistinguishable from the others than the last.

Skyrim has bigger problems I'd say.

 

[zegh8578]

Those are all valid points, but dude, Skyrim... !

I mean - the entire population doesn't have spears.

Store-owners have body-builder muscles by standing around in their shop all day...

The list would never end... I love the fatties in GTA4 lumbering around (I always felt terrible for harming the fatties! Who wants to harm a fattie!? D: ) But - imagine if Skyrim had fatties!
Even if a gem like Morrowind, there is plenty of room for improvement -
Then came Oblivion, where 0 forts are functional. ZERO!!! 0 Mines are functional, ZERO. Half of the non-city villages are abandoned, pointless or ruined, hell - the most populated non-city town has to be massacred by YOU through a quest

The scattered farms surrounding Whiterun actually made me happy to see, because it actually DID feel real - FOR A MOMENT, untill I realized it was pretty much the only example of such in the whole of Skyrim.

I am also _convinced_ that Winterhold looks like that out of a "fuck it"-sentiment, "Just... copy paste some wooden ruins around, let's just wrap this shit up!"

 

[Dr Fallout]

A lot of this is just gameplay/story segregation stuff to be honest. I mean, it would be different if it were like Fallout 3 where they just didn't even make an effort to show where people are getting their food, water, etc. from or how the economy works. Skyrim is more on par with New Vegas in this sense.

Also yeah some of this is actually addressed in the game too, like Skyrim being probably unable to sustain itself for long as an independent nation without collapsing is kind of one of the points made by the Empire.

The reality is just that if they try to make games like this too realistic then like 60% of the map would be farmland, each new stretch more indistinguishable from the others than the last.

Skyrim has bigger problems I'd say.

Not true. May I point out Morrowind? It had a working economy, food sources and a decent enough population. And how can you compare Skyrim's world to New Vegas? New Vegas has a MUCH better working world.

 

[Moosick]

Nothing is more insightful and worthwhile than a new thread on here detailing why Bethesda's game design sucks ass.

 

[Walpknut]

Slyrim is a flawed game, but this is just explained away by abstraction. At least this time they actually bothered to have farms and mines, and not settlements where people do nothing all day and survive with a single cow.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Nothing is more insightful and worthwhile than a new thread on here detailing why Bethesda's game design sucks ass.

I know, I know but I don't think the issue of Skyrim's nonsense world has been raised.

And abstraction is not a good excuse. It's lazy and sadly what many games suffer from.

 

[Walpknut]

You seem to be under the impression that making a simulation of reality is either easy or even affordable in current tech.

Abstraction is what games are all about. Every single one, specially RPGs (altho Skyrims status asan RPG is debatable)
Skyrim already runs like ass like it is and you want them adding in thousands of generic npcs just to fill in the world? Do you also want the map to be scaled to real life units too? That is just no affordable, and demanding that from a game is kind of dumb. Reminds me of a person in this forum who wants to have a thousand different voice actors in open world games and uses a low budget graphic adventure with less than 10 characters as an example of how to do it.

The problems in Skyrim lie elsewhere, mostly on it's bad leveling up, it's lack of character interaction with the envirorment (Had to download a mod to even have a reason to hunt and eat food, to have a hypothermia mechanic or for diseases to have any effect), no branching in quests and a lot of repetitive fetch quests that just send you to random corners of the map with little reason and the biggest one an absolute piece of shit of an interface. Complaining about there not being enough NPCs to fill a country? Just dumb.

I love New Vegas as much as the next guy here (I am one of it's biggest advocates in here) but if yo uare using New Vegas to compare Skyrim poorly in trms of world design you are being intellectually dishonest, New Vegas uses even more abstraction because it's running on an even older engine. New Vegas has a lot less NPCs and the farms are smaller and you never see people scavenging ruins but hear them talk about it, there aren't even any Quarry Workers in the Quarry Junction even after clearing it of Deathclaws. ABSTRACTION, that's what games are about.

 

[LordAshur]

Skyrim also doesn't have any functional forts until you start doing the civil war quests. Having lots of hostile areas in New Vegas makes sense because that's a world where humanity is struggling to survive (to a point... think frontier life). Skyrim has been a civilized, functional part of the empire for hundreds of years, yet no one thought to clear out all those ruins? Or build or breed more?

The thing here is that in the TES universe, technology always seems to be moving backwards for some reason. In Morrowind, which took place several years before Oblivion, spears and crossbows were a common sight, while they were non-existant in Oblivion. In Oblivion, the Imperial Legion wore full plate armor, while in Skyrim, which happens hundreds of years later (and is a much colder place) they walk around in skirts.

Seriously though, if anything, Oblivion did the armor design right. The armors look very functional, unlike Skyrim, where Bethesda's idea of fur armor was PANTS.

 

[Dr Fallout]

You seem to be under the impression that making a simulation of reality is either easy or even affordable in current tech.

Abstraction is what games are all about. Every single one, specially RPGs (altho Skyrims status asan RPG is debatable)
Skyrim already runs like ass like it is and you want them adding in thousands of generic npcs just to fill in the world? Do you also want the map to be scaled to real life units too? That is just no affordable, and demanding that from a game is kind of dumb. Reminds me of a person in this forum who wants to have a thousand different voice actors in open world games and uses a low budget graphic adventure with less than 10 characters as an example of how to do it.

The problems in Skyrim lie elsewhere, mostly on it's bad leveling up, it's lack of character interaction with the envirorment, no branching in quests and a lot of repetitive fetch quests that just send you to random corners of the map with little reason. Complaining about there not being enough NPCs to fill a country? Just dumb.

I love New Vegas as muchas the next guy here (I am one of it's biggest advocates in here) but if yo uare using New Vegas to compare Skyrim poorly in trms of world design you are being intellectually dishonest, New Vegas uses even more abstraction because it's running on an even older engine. New Vegas has a lot less NPCs and the farms are smaller and you never see people scavenging ruins but hear them talk about it, there aren't even any Quarry Workers in the Quarry Junction even after clearing it of Deathclaws. ABSTRACTION, that's what games are about.

Uhh... me stupid because me no like Skyrim world. Me total dumb ass cause you say so and you be only right.

But seriously, you're making the assumptions. I never said fill it up with generic NPCs or make a fully realistic game with real life units. I'm just saying that the 'abstraction' of Skyrim is bad, the world makes no sense and that Skyrim is generally a bad game. But here is a question, do you care about a game world? Of course you do. So naturally I find Skyrim's aberration of a world really, really, really bad.

 

[Walpknut]

You are complaining about the size of the farms, mines and population then you are saying that abstraction is not an excuse....

That's pretty dumb, specially, again, when you are using New Vegas as a comparison, which uses and even more compacted space than Skyrim does.
I dislike Skyrim a lot but this list of things you are making is almost a text book example of a strawman argument.

Also, it's kind of a plot point that Skyrim has no centralized economy and that some towns are sinkholes doomed to disappear. The story in Skyrim is pretty bland but you are also actively ignoring stuff. "Skyrim" is not a goverment, is just a region each farm supplies their city, same way the NCR Sharecroppers is not feeding the Khans and Westside.

 

[Dr Fallout]

So Skyrim, alone, divided... has been able to survive bandits and economic disasters for centuries? Figures... I'm not complaining about the size, but the number. And the amount of population in CONTRAST to the amount of soldiers. New Vegas was more sensible, it's post apocalyptic and not many people survived. But I must give that to you, I have only played a small amount and where I have been it seems reasonable (keep in mind I know a LOT about it's lore and story). And abstraction is an excuse, whether you like it or not. But it can be a good excuse or like Fallout 3 and Skyrim, a bad excuse. And the list of things is NOT a strawmen argument, the response to your argument is (not in my opinion, but at least direct the attack correctly).

 

[Stone Cold Robert House]

1. Economy: From what we see, Skyrim actually lacks a centralized, working economy that can sustain all of Skyrim. The economy that we can see are privatized inns and small mines that lack any real amount of minerals. Unless the inns are heavily taxed there is almost no money going to the jarls, which means they can't hire guards and up keep their cities. Trade is a joke, with one or two ships that only go to three locations in the game, and from the in-game lore Skyrim technically can't work as a country due to the fact that each Jarl acts independently. Skyrim just doesn't have enough money to run their country.

Skyrim runs on a semi-feudal economy, in the sense that the Jarls grant pieces of land in exchange for taxes or benefits, and trade is based mostly on inter-provincial commerce that's been in place since the times of Alessia when Skyrim was incorporated into the Empire. Solitude has a large tax base with good roads between Dragon Bridge and the north coast. A secondary road through the high altitudes connects to High Rock although traffic is limited due the climate and terrain. Highways to the rest of Skyrim branch out near Hjaalmarch. The mild climate despite its higher latitude keeps the bay ice free for most of the year which means access to Hammerfell and High rock are reliable. Riften is all about agriculture due to large amounts of arable terrain and the warmest climate of the region. Whiterun is at worst a pit stop for most other trips, and at best the largest producer of grains and other products that can ship directly to Bruma and the Imperial City. Windhelm doesn't have many avenues to trade with Morrowind but the hold is mostly centered on rural property and internal consumption. Falkreath has a low population and is underdeveloped, but holds tons of resources that can be used by the nearby holds or by Imperials directly to the south. The Reach has the most difficult topography to traverse and constant issues with the Forsworn, but it has enough mines to supply all of Skyrim and their economy is almost entirely based on that. Dawnstar doesn't have much other than fishing which is why it's the least developed hold. Morthal is poor, and represented as such. Winterhold basically does not have an economy other than the commerce of enchantments and alchemy goods with the College or by former College members who hang out around what's left of the town.

If you account for the game's downsized scale, the economy makes complete sense.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I believe Beth would do better with less but bigger locations. Imagine if there would have been only 3 really respectable towns in Skyrim, Solitude, Whiterun and Windhelm. The rest of the towns and locations would be added to those 3, plases like Markath or Riften would be more like mining and farming communities. The rest of the settlements are alright. It is really the so called "cities" that fall apart for me. The last time a place designed by Bethesda felt like a city was Vivec - havn't played any previous ES titles.

Sometimes less is more. Quality over quantitiy.

You seem to be under the impression that making a simulation of reality is either easy or even affordable in current tech.

Abstraction is what games are all about. Every single one, specially RPGs (altho Skyrims status asan RPG is debatable)
Skyrim already runs like ass like it is and you want them adding in thousands of generic npcs just to fill in the world? Do you also want the map to be scaled to real life units too? That is just no affordable, and demanding that from a game is kind of dumb. Reminds me of a person in this forum who wants to have a thousand different voice actors in open world games and uses a low budget graphic adventure with less than 10 characters as an example of how to do it.
...

Absofuckinglutely! Could not agree more here! I take a well done abstraction over realism any time. While I would not mind a bigger Skyrim-Map (let us say twice the size, it always felt way to compressed in my opinion), there is no reason to make things realistc. What's more important is to mimic real life, but in a believable way. And there are many games that did it pretty nicely. Like The Witcher 1 and 2, Gothic 1 and 2 and a few more. For example I never understood this obscure obsession with shedules for NPCs. Everyone and everything has shedules now! Life like too! From the tinest ant to the biggest King. Well. Already Gothic 1 had basic Shedules for NPCs. And particularly Gothic and Witcher crafted life like locations that immersed me a thousand times better than what Bethesda has delivered since Oblivion. Morrowind had almost no shedules for NPCs, and the game still felt alright.

 

[Dr Fallout]

1. Economy: From what we see, Skyrim actually lacks a centralized, working economy that can sustain all of Skyrim. The economy that we can see are privatized inns and small mines that lack any real amount of minerals. Unless the inns are heavily taxed there is almost no money going to the jarls, which means they can't hire guards and up keep their cities. Trade is a joke, with one or two ships that only go to three locations in the game, and from the in-game lore Skyrim technically can't work as a country due to the fact that each Jarl acts independently. Skyrim just doesn't have enough money to run their country.

Skyrim runs on a semi-feudal economy, in the sense that the Jarls grant pieces of land in exchange for taxes or benefits, and trade is based mostly on inter-provincial commerce that's been in place since the times of Alessia when Skyrim was incorporated into the Empire. Solitude has a large tax base with good roads between Dragon Bridge and the north coast. A secondary road through the high altitudes connects to High Rock although traffic is limited due the climate and terrain. Highways to the rest of Skyrim branch out near Hjaalmarch. The mild climate despite its higher latitude keeps the bay ice free for most of the year which means access to Hammerfell and High rock are reliable. Riften is all about agriculture due to large amounts of arable terrain and the warmest climate of the region. Whiterun is at worst a pit stop for most other trips, and at best the largest producer of grains and other products that can ship directly to Bruma and the Imperial City. Windhelm doesn't have many avenues to trade with Morrowind but the hold is mostly centered on rural property and internal consumption. Falkreath has a low population and is underdeveloped, but holds tons of resources that can be used by the nearby holds or by Imperials directly to the south. The Reach has the most difficult topography to traverse and constant issues with the Forsworn, but it has enough mines to supply all of Skyrim and their economy is almost entirely based on that. Dawnstar doesn't have much other than fishing which is why it's the least developed hold. Morthal is poor, and represented as such. Winterhold basically does not have an economy other than the commerce of enchantments and alchemy goods with the College or by former College members who hang out around what's left of the town.

If you account for the game's downsized scale, the economy makes complete sense.

Downscaled is an understatement. Pretty much one mine supplies all of Skyrim's steel you say? Fair enough...

You do have a point, but Bethesda really failed in showing it. Also the civil war fucks up the economy, with half of Skyrim torn up. Solitude no longer makes sense as a rich town if all the good economy points are in the hands of the Stormcloaks, yet how can they run if in-game evidence suggests the holds are EXTREMELY independent with supplies staying each 'city'. Also economically and politically regions like Morthal and Winterhold make no sense. The College has enough power to take over Winterhold, however their leadership doesn't, and the trade in trinkets doesn't work... because the roads there are dangerous and barely traveled. I wonder where they sell their shit... to trolls perhaps? Also the Forsworn threat is so exaggerated yet at the same time it's quite small. Even the attack on the Reach's capital is downplayed. The Forsworn are powerful enough to stop shipments and disrupt trading. Riften is actually supposed to be a trade center, not a farming location. While the area suggests farming, the game suggests otherwise with a high emphasis on non-existing shipping and fishing. Whiterun is surrounded by giants and bandits, who have large enough forces to plague the nearby farms. Now I mention Bandits a lot, so you may accuse me of attacking just a game thing to make Skyrim 'harder'. However look at Morrowind which has small groups of Bandits in a well spread area. Bandits can be a problem but not to the extent Skyrim's should be. Windhelm has few rural properties for sale, being relatively empty. So overall... the economy makes no sense in Skryim's timeline that we see. Earlier on, maybe so, but the economy in Skyrim we see is shit.

 

[Courier]

The College has enough power to take over Winterhold, however their leadership doesn't, and the trade in trinkets doesn't work... because the roads there are dangerous and barely traveled. I wonder where they sell their shit... to trolls perhaps?

Again, I think this was a plot point. Winterhold was dying, the few people left there probably manage to scrape by through trade with visitors to the college. The college never bothers taking them over because what's the point? There's nothing of value there, and the college isn't interested in being a dick just for the sake of it.

Honestly though I think you're really just being nitpicky here.

 

[Dr Fallout]

The College has enough power to take over Winterhold, however their leadership doesn't, and the trade in trinkets doesn't work... because the roads there are dangerous and barely traveled. I wonder where they sell their shit... to trolls perhaps?

Again, I think this was a plot point. Winterhold was dying, the few people left there probably manage to scrape by through trade with visitors to the college. The college never bothers taking them over because what's the point? There's nothing of value there, and the college isn't interested in being a dick just for the sake of it.

Honestly though I think you're really just being nitpicky here.

Technically you're being nitpicky, I said they didn't want to and didn't continue because that was a reason enough.

 

[Stone Cold Robert House]

Downscaled is an understatement. Pretty much one mine supplies all of Skyrim's steel you say? Fair enough...

You do have a point, but Bethesda really failed in showing it. Also the civil war fucks up the economy, with half of Skyrim torn up. Solitude no longer makes sense as a rich town if all the good economy points are in the hands of the Stormcloaks, yet how can they run if in-game evidence suggests the holds are EXTREMELY independent with supplies staying each 'city'. Also economically and politically regions like Morthal and Winterhold make no sense. The College has enough power to take over Winterhold, however their leadership doesn't, and the trade in trinkets doesn't work... because the roads there are dangerous and barely traveled. I wonder where they sell their shit... to trolls perhaps? Also the Forsworn threat is so exaggerated yet at the same time it's quite small. Even the attack on the Reach's capital is downplayed. The Forsworn are powerful enough to stop shipments and disrupt trading. Riften is actually supposed to be a trade center, not a farming location. While the area suggests farming, the game suggests otherwise with a high emphasis on non-existing shipping and fishing. Whiterun is surrounded by giants and bandits, who have large enough forces to plague the nearby farms. Now I mention Bandits a lot, so you may accuse me of attacking just a game thing to make Skyrim 'harder'. However look at Morrowind which has small groups of Bandits in a well spread area. Bandits can be a problem but not to the extent Skyrim's should be. Windhelm has few rural properties for sale, being relatively empty. So overall... the economy makes no sense in Skryim's timeline that we see. Earlier on, maybe so, but the economy in Skyrim we see is shit.

At this point your entire argument is just refusing to accept that scale has an effect in design. "Oh this would make sense if the game was in real size, but since it's not, there is no excuse!" It would be totally unreasonable to expect a huge country to be represented anywhere near a realistic scale, unless most of the terrain is randomly generated like in Daggerfall. You talk about how the Forsworn attacks are downplayed even though it's another case of the game engine being unable to render hundreds of NPCs at once (yet another detail explained by that same initial point of scale). The holds are never made to be economically sufficient, just politically separate, as evidenced by all the carriages, traders and other services connectingeach city. You say Riften is not supposed to be an agricultural center which shows you're actually ignoring a lot of the evidence in the series as seen in books and even pieces of dialogue. You say Morrowind had more sense in their economy, and while the Morrowind world was indeed better constructed, if you applied your own argument to it you'd see it doesn't work because it's also heavily downscaled (with the Dren Plantation that supposedly holds hundreds of slaves being the size of a few buildings, Sadrith Mora as the main Telvanni center in Vvardenfell is basically residential, the Sheogorad region is basically empty other than the area around Dagon Fel, etc). Which is no problem, by the way, as these games need to scaled down and you're apparently the only person to take major issue in that. The bandit thing is an issue of lazy design, not in the worldbuilding - saying "there are enough bandits to take Whiterun!" as an argument against the game's economy is really poor. You could use it as argument against the dungeon or quest design of the game, but not this. All of this just seems like being nitpicky because you can't really understand scale and abstraction (or refuse to accept them as valid design elements even though they are completely normal and have always been used in this genre).