So in the end, did the Super Mutants add to anything?

[The Enclave 86]

Logically their would be different storage areas, as well as production areas.

Some things I said in response to a similar idea said by someone of the Bethesda Forums:

Wondered how long it would be before we brought that [censored] excuse out, "We haven't seen every square foot of the whole world so anything could exist". Same principle here. You know what else we haven't seen? The full chemical composition for the Curling-FEV but we take the world of it's [censored] mastermind and it's imminent deployment that the stuff works. I just love how you try and make insults to pass over arguement, "Self-appointed" insinuating that Richardson is just a nobody instead of, you know, in charge of the organisatoin which is already shown to monitering be and collecting data from the Vaults. "Flapping his jaw", again, everything he said about them being experiments has been confirmed, as has the Enclave's ability to moniter the Vaults; stop being pathetic and trying to gloss over genuine points with insults. Chris Avellone is wrong, proven so by the games themselves, as has happened before. There is no reason why the Enclave wouldn't know about what happened in some Vaults, Richardson uses the blanket statement, "the Vaults were social experiments on a grand scale." ie all of them, at least the numbered ones, which Vault 87 is. I am not disputing it's canonicity, I am saying that it is stupid and defying of established canon.

Oh and you forgot to try and disprove the ENCLAVE Vault Research Control - from PoseidoNet - and the Vault Behavioral Programme that Doctor Henry mentioned in Fallout 2, it shows that the Enclave had the ability to install monitering equipment in the Vaults and then moniter them from their base, it shows that they had the ability to usurp control and have whatever they wanted installed, it shows that they had the ability to make the Vault's their [censored]es and have no one the wiser, it shows their power and sway over Vault-Tec, it shows that they knew everything about the Vaults and controlled the corporation that was building them.

Funny thing is that I'm not even firing all guns, the US Military had Mariposa as it's primary FEV installation, these Vaults often took several years to build, Mariposa was built in 2277, only a year before the war. So unless your suggesting that Vault 87 just so happened to have all of the right things built into it to accomodate black military research projects for the US to send FEV too at the last minute, then it wouldn't have been already constructed. Mariposa was their chosen location for further testing, it was completed in January 2077, they did their research there. The terminal in the Citadel says that Vault 87 was finished in:

Vault 87
Vault Number...
87
Starting Construction Date...
May 2066
Ending Construction Date...
May 2071

It was finished 4 years before FEV was conceived and was still the Pan Immunity Viron; unless your suggesting that it is perfectly reasonable for the Enclave - whom had no interest in FEV research before the war, hence why they had to go back to Mariposa in 2236 for research and samples - to nationalise the project and hand it too the army and yet at the same time give it to Vault-Tec and completely change the planned experiment of the 6 year completed Vault - which I will say was already built with an experiment in mind it is safe to assume - then Vault 87 is a [censored] stupid, canon/logic/sense defying Vault.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

The following is not a comment on you or your post The Enclave 86, rather to eliminate the damn thought set of FEV popping up everywhere because 'it is cool'.

According to Fallout 1's canon from which all other canon is dervived, the history goes as follows

FEV research

2073

As China became increasingly aggressive with their use of biological weapons, the United States government felt that a countermeasure was needed. The Pan-Immunity Virion Project (PVP) was officially formed September 15, 2073.

2075

It became clear that the best way to combat the newly created biological weapons was to alter uninfected DNA so that it was no longer susceptible to standard viral infection.

2076

Unforeseen side effects began surfacing in early 2076 with the PVP. Animal test subjects began showing an abnormal growth rate accompanied by increased brain activity. The U.S. government took notice of these discoveries, and in the interests of national security, moved a team on-site to secure and oversee the project, which was now dubbed the FEV (Forced Evolutionary Virus) project.

2077

FEV nears completion. Test on lab animals are at a near 100% success rate. Size and muscle density increase approximately 60%, and the potential intelligence increase by 200%. Effects upon human subjects remain unknown; although they are theoretically promising. The military, wishing to continue further testing, builds a large facility at the Mariposa military installation in central California. At this new facility, testing of the FEV virus continues on volunteer subjects from the military.


FEV experiment disc

Log Date March 21, 2075

Major Barnett has ordered experiments with batch 10-011 of panimmunity virion, which has been renamed FEV, for Forced Evolutionary Virus. His main concern is with the side effects of the quad-helix structure rather than its main effect of replicative stability. He believes the new structure is the next logical step for mammalian nuclei. Experiments with single-celled organisms is a great success. While their basal metabolism appears unchanged, their immunity to infection and radiation is exceeding all earlier expectations. Addendum: chloroplasts seem unaffected by the virion. Further experiments on plant cells have been canceled by order of Major Barnett.

Log Date May 9, 2075

We infected several species of flatworm with FEV. Within hours the worms had increased in size by 28%, and 39 separate viral contagions were resisted by the population. Each sample was allowed to continue for several generations, and the new DNA structure was successfully passed on to worm's progeny, although only asexual reproduction was noticed in the samples. Experiments with insects have had less success. Major Barnett has postponed these experiments until further notice.

Log Date June 30, 2075

Several lab strains of white mice have been infected successfully with FEV. Again, an increase in size was noted within hours, and after 9 days all mice had stabilized at 31% larger than the control group. Dissection revealed the most increase in size in striated muscle tissue and certain internal organs, such as the liver, heart, and kidneys. In a surprising finding, the infected mice were found to run mazes in less than half of the time of the control group. More testing will be needed to confirm this finding as significant.

Log Date November 9, 2075

We have infected 218 rabbits with FEV. Half of the subjects were implanted with electrodes to monitor EEG activity before and after the infection. Increased electrical activity in the brain was noted in 3.2 seconds (on average) after injection. Again, the typical size increase was noted. However, increased aggression and posturing (especially among males) was noted as well. Sacrifice and profusion yielded brain tissue that showed increased dendritic connection, especially in the limbic system and frontal cortex.

Log Date January 12, 2076

With batch 11-011, we have improved the mitotic cycle efficiency by 43%. We have infected 53 raccoons with the new strain. In addition to the now expected size increase, behavioral tests confirmed an increase in intelligence and manual dexterity by 19 points on the Schuler-Kapp index. Unfortunately, several subjects escaped confinement and had to be hunted down and dispatched. Major Barnett ordered the remaining subjects terminated. Two pairs were unaccounted for.

Log Date May 13, 2076

We have spliced several new gene sequences, supplied by Major Barnett's advisory team, into FEV. With batch 11-101a, we infected 23 dogs of both pure and mixed breed, and all experienced nearly immediate growth. The larger size was accompanied with increased aggressiveness, while no significant intelligence increase was noted. We plan to attempt crossover of 92 allele pairs with batch 11-011. All subjects were terminated after 14 weeks of study.

Log Date October 4, 2076

The crossover has been completed and 15 chimpanzees were infected with batch 11-111. Growth and immunity levels are unprecedented. Attempts to induce cancers in the subjects through radiological and chemical agents were not successful. Increased aggressiveness have led to isolating the subjects. Two subjects suffered violent epileptic seizures and died. All remaining subjects terminated.

Log Date January 7,

Major Barnett has ordered transfer of all FEV research to the Mariposa Military Base. He plans to continue the project experiments on volunteer subjects. I am against this, and would like it noted here that research on human subjects is not recommended by myself or my staff.

As clearly mentioned in these texts that are from Fallout 1 itself, at no point there were other FEV 'factories' in the United States other than Mariposa military base that had been specifically build or re-purposed for FEV research and West Tek itself were FEV was initially created.

Nor are there are any Vaults mentioned were FEV research would take place, not to mention that this goes against the nature of the experiments that took place in the Vaults.

So again, there was only West Tek and Mariposa, no other facility!

My thanks goes to the Vault Wiki and the writer who took the time to write this all down from Fallout 1.

 

[Shadow of the Wastes]

Explanation is simple: Someone else wanted to use FEV to further their own goals and wanted to do so in relative secrecy.

How? Uh... science?

 

[The Enclave 86]

snip

Well that's a relatively easier arguement to write down

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Explanation is simple: Someone else wanted to use FEV to further their own goals and wanted to do so in relative secrecy.

How? Uh... science?

How?
FEV and FEV2 were relative new before the War and the government honestly wasn't going to let others take samples.

After the War?
The only place with FEV2 was the Mariposa ruins which were inaccessible until the Enclave excavated it.
And the place is within NCR borders, they sure will not let people just go in and take FEV2.

Recreate it?
Do I need to remind that it requires an advanced industrial and scientific infrastructure to create FEV2.
Its not something you make in a shack.

Plus your excuse is cheap, basically being FEV should be around because 'its cool'.

snip

Well that's a relatively easier arguement to write down

Okay perhaps a bit long but it leaves no plot holes.

 

[The Enclave 86]

Okay perhaps a bit long but it leaves no plot holes.

I am not posting this laughable justification from Bethesda as anykind of counter-arguement, I merely want your opinion on it. It comes from the terminal of the head scientist in Vault 87:

The latest subjects in the Evolutionary Experimentation Program (EEP) are showing some promise after only a single exposure to the modified FEV. We are currently testing five subjects, two males and three females. Each one of them is under 24 hour observation as usual. We hope to have a breakthrough in this strain as the continual pressure from Vault-Tec and the military at Mariposa is becoming most bothersome.

 

[Shadow of the Wastes]

How?
FEV and FEV2 were relative new before the War and the government honestly wasn't going to let others take samples.

After the War?
The only place with FEV2 was the Mariposa ruins which were inaccessible until the Enclave excavated it.
And the place is within NCR borders, they sure will not let people just go in and take FEV2.

Recreate it?
Do I need to remind that it requires an advanced industrial and scientific infrastructure to create FEV2.
Its not something you make in a shack.

Plus your excuse is cheap, basically being FEV should be around because 'its cool'.

I didn't say it was a good way to explain it, I just said you could say someone within the government is behind it.

I really don't care that much though.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

The latest subjects in the Evolutionary Experimentation Program (EEP) are showing some promise after only a single exposure to the modified FEV. We are currently testing five subjects, two males and three females. Each one of them is under 24 hour observation as usual. We hope to have a breakthrough in this strain as the continual pressure from Vault-Tec and the military at Mariposa is becoming most bothersome.

I remember this entry and I wonder what's the point of another program (the EEP) if its goal was the same as the other one. Even worse, this almost makes it look like reasearch was done only at V87 (also why is V-T directly involved with the experiment?).

 

[The Enclave 86]

I remember this entry and I wonder what's the point of another program (the EEP) if its goal was the same as the other one. Even worse, this almost makes it look like reasearch was done only at V87 (also why is V-T directly involved with the experiment?).

Because of stupid that's why; in the detailed post at the top of the page I explain just how ridiculous it is that Vault 87 even exists. It doesn't make sense by any logic, the Vault was finished in 2071 and FEV was created in 2075 which must mean that the Enclave changed the experiments of the Vault to incorporate the FEV tests; meaning that the Enclave shouldn't have had to go to Mariposa for FEV infomation because they have the ability to moniter the Vaults from the Oil Rig. This is just one of many possible arguements against Vault 87's existance.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

The latest subjects in the Evolutionary Experimentation Program (EEP) are showing some promise after only a single exposure to the modified FEV. We are currently testing five subjects, two males and three females. Each one of them is under 24 hour observation as usual. We hope to have a breakthrough in this strain as the continual pressure from Vault-Tec and the military at Mariposa is becoming most bothersome.

What the?

Its been a while since I played FO3 and I have no intention anymore to do so but this is ridiculous.
Was the Vault already closed before the War?
If so, why?

And what pressure from Mariposa?
In that little time they had that year they already started research at both Mariposa and a Vault that shouldn't even be occupied nor was overseen by the military?

In the days before the War?
Maxson and his men had already taken control of the base after they discovered that FEV research was being performed on arrested soldiers, sending a message that they seceded from the Union and still wondering why they got no transmission back.

Again, this is plain stupid.
Vault 87, EEP, and yet another strain of FEV are just grabbed completely out of the blue and do not fit Fallout canon at all.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Was the Vault already closed before the War?
If so, why?

Actually there are some details in FO3 that seems to imply that all the vaults were closed before the war (weeks? months?), at least the DC ones. Which make sense IMO if the vaults were what they were meant to be (i.e. shelters) but contradicts canon and doesn't make sense with the Vault Experiment in mind because...what would have happened if the war never erupted? The government would have had to re-open the vaults at some point and how would they have explained the experiments? Because, of course, the experiments still began immediately after the vaults were closed. A mess.

 

[Lexx]

I'll suggest that we simply forget about vault experiments. It was a shitty idea in Fallout 2, it was shitty done in Fallout 3 and FNV didn't made it much better either. Vault experiments are just stupid lulzy stuff that don't made much sense anyway... especially because every single Vault had some stupid experiment connected with it.

 

[The Enclave 86]

I'll suggest that we simply forget about vault experiments. It was a shitty idea in Fallout 2, it was shitty done in Fallout 3 and FNV didn't made it much better either. Vault experiments are just stupid lulzy stuff that don't made much sense anyway... especially because every single Vault had some stupid experiment connected with it.

Maybe Van Burne might have expanded upon it with the Enclave taking Bloomingfields before the War. But as of now they serve no purpose and are just excuses for the Lulz; in Fallout 2 they were feisable for the most part, 13 indefinate isolation, 15 mixed ethnic groups, 8 Control Vault and Richardson mentioned one with all men, one with less food synthesisers (soemthing else which appears to have been forgotten) and one which would open after six months.

From that Bethesda made two super soldier Vaults, one about Clones or something, Vault 13 again and took that one from the Bible with the drugs.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

From that Bethesda made two super soldier Vaults, one about Clones or something, Vault 13 again and took that one from the Bible with the drugs.

Vault 101 was taken from the Vault too, though, if I'm not mistaken.

And Vault 108 (the one with the clones) was another complete mess. Officially the experiment was to study conflict for leadership and power in a Vault, with the Overseer dying of cancer within 40 months and undesignated positions of power. What the hell have the clones to do with this?
Even more ludicrous the only log you can find in the Vault says that they cloned 53 Garys and they had no place for others. So that means that 53 persons slaughtered a whole vault? But there's more! The main power supply was also scheduled to malfunction after 240 months and the back-up power supply was intentionally insufficient to meet the Vault's needs, which logically should mean that the clones were made during that timeframe, right? Which means that magically the clones survived in a broken down vault for 180 years.

I hate Bethesda writers...

 

[The Enclave 86]

Vault 101 was taken from the Vault too, though, if I'm not mistaken.

And Vault 108 (the one with the clones) was another complete mess. Officially the experiment was to study conflict for leadership and power in a Vault, with the Overseer dying of cancer within 40 months and undesignated positions of power. What the hell have the clones to do with this?

Even more ludicrous the only log you can find in the Vault says that they cloned 53 Garys and they had no place for others. So that means that 53 persons slaughtered a whole vault? But there's more! The main power supply was also scheduled to malfunction after 240 months and the back-up power supply was intentionally insufficient to meet the Vault's needs, which logically should mean that the clones were made during that timeframe, right? Which means that magically the clones survived in a broken down vault for 180 years.

I hate Bethesda writers...

Yeah I know, the madness never stops right? I mean come on it's common sense, what are these people eating and drinking, who runs the place. But this is Bethesda were lulz and dungeon crawling go before making things make sense *cough* Optimus Prime *cough*.

Who needs reason when you have Magicka?

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

I mean come on it's common sense, what are these people eating and drinking, who runs the place.

Forget that. How can they be still alive despite being 180 years old? Those clones are like the SMs?

 

[The Enclave 86]

Forget that. How can they be still alive despite being 180 years old? Those clones are like the SMs?

Same with the insane survivor... I think that trying to write a Vault Dweller is difficult so Bethesda just made all of the Vaults - of which there were FAR to many - failures.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

I'll suggest that we simply forget about vault experiments. It was a shitty idea in Fallout 2, it was shitty done in Fallout 3 and FNV didn't made it much better either. Vault experiments are just stupid lulzy stuff that don't made much sense anyway... especially because every single Vault had some stupid experiment connected with it.

I liked the idea of the Vault Experiments in FO2 as it gave a more sinister explanation to why so many of the Vaults failed for one reason or another.

But then it was done for 'lulz' and that pretty much killed it for me.

I think the Vault Experiments concept should be retired unless it can be used in a really good way.

No more wacky Vault shenanigans.

 

[RoseKilla]

I liked the idea of the Vault Experiments in FO2 as it gave a more sinister explanation to why so many of the Vaults failed for one reason or another.

But then it was done for 'lulz' and that pretty much killed it for me.

I think the Vault Experiments concept should be retired unless it can be used in a really good way.

No more wacky Vault shenanigans.

The idea was ok, although I agree that they overdid it in the last two games. The old FOs each had like, I dunno, 2 or 3 vaults, at max? (VaultWiki doesn't work at the moment, can't check)
Fo3 & FoNV each has like 6 or 7. They doesn't seem to realize that there were vaults in another parts of the country too, and although I don't live in US, I don't think it that small that each small region can have 6 vaults. They'll run out of them eventually.

 

[DecepticonCobra]

At most, if we have a game set somewhere in the South, DC Super Mutants could migrate there and at least have the obligatory Mutant presence in a Fallout game.