So what lore has Bethesda done gone fucked up?

[DarkCorp]

To clarify,

The enclave, PRE-WAR, was a SMALL cabal of rich folks, military-industry guys, SOME (most likely a few guys who aren't high enough on the food chain to go to ACTUAL government bunkers) politicians, etc.

The nukes fly and the president, joint chiefs, cabinet, etc, all head to official government bunkers like NORAD and such. The chinese hit those bunkers with bunker busting nukes.

They die and the enclave, who may or may not been known by the chinese as low level politicians, and other folks of non-importance, pre-war, TAKES OVER, and becomes the NEW, executive, legislative and judicial branches of the government. They take on the disguise of being part of the continuity of government, and elect their president.

Companies like Halliburton can hire mercenaries like Black Water but it doesn't mean they RUN, the U.S. government.

 

[sandercohan]

I am more talking about the dozen or so Crashed Pre war vertibirds everywhere on Boston, the Vertibirds on the Pre War segments and even groups like the Gunners having them for some reason.

Crashed Vertibirds where usually attributed to the Enclave when they appeared in a game and there was usually only one location like that.... Fallout 4 tho? They are everywhere, there is even one in the Glowing sea, and a few atop overpasses.... some are just in the middle of nowhere, and the precense of prewar skeletons with Army uniforms in them disproves any defense about maybe those being post war crashes.

I think that's just Bethesda's fruitless attempt to make the franchise look unique by making it look like Vertibirds are a helicopter substitute. That was my point - why are there no regular helos in Fallout 4? Considering how many military bases there was.

The other fact is that Bethesda blatantly reused the dragon AI for the aircraft in Fallout 4, and so they had to make sure the general purpose aircraft was a VTOL so they didn't actually have to code new things in. Vertibirds were already a part of the lore and I don't think Bethesda enjoys working on new lore, so they just used what they already had. The game's aimed at Fallout 3 fans, not New Vegas ones, much less us. Fallout 3 had a lot of Vertibirds too so it would draw back old fans.

Can you provide any proof of this?

 

[ZigzagPX4]

To clarify,

The enclave, PRE-WAR, was a SMALL cabal of rich folks, military-industry guys, SOME (most likely a few guys who aren't high enough on the food chain to go to ACTUAL government bunkers) politicians, etc.

The nukes fly and the president, joint chiefs, cabinet, etc, all head to official government bunkers like NORAD and such. The chinese hit those bunkers with bunker busting nukes.

They die and the enclave, who may or may not been known by the chinese as low level politicians, and other folks of non-importance, pre-war, TAKES OVER, and becomes the NEW, executive, legislative and judicial branches of the government. They take on the disguise of being part of the continuity of government, and elect their president.

Companies like Halliburton can hire mercenaries like Black Water but it doesn't mean they RUN, the U.S. government.

Wait, so the Enclave were presumably unintentional? I thought that their creation and existence was directly sanctioned by the government. I've never seen any data suggesting that they were actually a small group of not-that-important folks who decided to grab all the power they have left and continue the government.

I think I gave in to their propaganda and actually assumed they were the continued US government in its entirety. I never thought that they would be lower-level politicians who took over. That's an entirely new perspective I wouldn't have even thought of. In that case, they're a lot less powerful than I envisioned.

 

[Walpknut]

I don't even get where you are geting that the Enclave was small or devoid of power pre war, they obviously had enough to seize millitary prototypes, resources to produce new types of power armor and such....

 

[ZigzagPX4]

I don't even get where you are geting that the Enclave was small or devoid of power pre war, they obviously had enough to seize millitary prototypes, resources to produce new types of power armor and such....

Well, yeah, that was what I thought. If they've got the power to seize prototypes and manufacture power armour all the way post-war, they were most likely the remnants of the government. DarkCorp above has the theory I'm interpreting as them not being the direct remnants, but a bunch of rich folks and politicians who grabbed up what was left and built themselves into becoming remnants - a theory I've never heard of.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I don't even get where you are geting that the Enclave was small or devoid of power pre war, they obviously had enough to seize millitary prototypes, resources to produce new types of power armor and such....

Well, yeah, that was what I thought. If they've got the power to seize prototypes and manufacture power armour all the way post-war, they were most likely the remnants of the government. DarkCorp above has the theory I'm interpreting as them not being the direct remnants, but a bunch of rich folks and politicians who grabbed up what was left and built themselves into becoming remnants - a theory I've never heard of.

But... that's my theory too...

Anyway, ending that little tantrum, it's simple to explain the prototype stuff. It's possible the Enclave had some top scientists who were working on these designs as part of their faction, or had strong connections with the various companies funding these prototypes. After the war they were able to take full control of these surviving areas, which allowed them to manufacture various items for their private forces (assuming that's what they are).

 

[DarkCorp]

An oil rig isn't exactly a hardened target. If the chinese knew U.S. government forces were there, why wouldn't they hit it with a nuke?

NORAD, Camp David and Raven Rock, in our verse, are protected sites, thats why they are the go to locations for CoG personnel to hide in.

The Enclave does have government personnel among their ranks, I don't dispute that. However, these guys are not some monolithic entity that dictates U.S. policy. That's the reason why we have a congress and a senate for example. The U.S. government isn't one giant, single minded group here.

So, the legitimate CoG folks, president, joint chiefs, cabinet and congressional members, get evacuated with military escorts and equipment (like Vertibird prototypes and Power Armor).

The enclave, with their low level government personnel, military industry guys, scientists, etc, those really smart and rich folk who didn't qualify for a spot above, and obviously not going to be Vault Tec guinea pigs, still want to live.

These are guys like House, are smart industrialists with military and scientific connections. These guys FINANCED and were responsible for the R&D that went into Vertibirds and power armor. They are unimaginably wealthy. Combine that with a paid army that ALSO, wants to survive the apocalypse, then you have a recipe for do it yourself apocalypse survival center.

This also explains why the oil rig wasn't target number one for the chinese to hit. If the actual sitting president at the time was there, the rig would have a huge target over it.

I mean look at House for fuck sakes. He was just ONE dude who was very eccentric, like Howard Hughes and look what he did. An army of security bots, access to lasers that shoot down nukes.

Now imagine what a fuckload of Houses who worked out an alliance with DARPA members, Generals from all branches of the military and the men under their command, various scientists not covered under CoG, could do.

It's not that far fetched.

And again, if the real CoG was killed, who the frik would know the difference. Donning the trappings of old government gives them a lot of credibility.

The real government would balk at super villainy like Curing but an unscrupulous shadow organisation that existed, not to rule originally, but to make profits, wouldn't mind at all.

 

[Dr Fallout]

An oil rig isn't exactly a hardened target. If the chinese knew U.S. government forces were there, why wouldn't they hit it with a nuke?

NORAD, Camp David and Raven Rock, in our verse, are protected sites, thats why they are the go to locations for CoG personnel to hide in.

The Enclave does have government personnel among their ranks, I don't dispute that. However, these guys are not some monolithic entity that dictates U.S. policy. That's the reason why we have a congress and a senate for example. The U.S. government isn't one giant, single minded group here.

So, the legitimate CoG folks, president, joint chiefs, cabinet and congressional members, get evacuated with military escorts and equipment (like Vertibird prototypes and Power Armor).

The enclave, with their low level government personnel, military industry guys, scientists, etc, those really smart and rich folk who didn't qualify for a spot above, and obviously not going to be Vault Tec guinea pigs, still want to live.

These are guys like House, are smart industrialists with military and scientific connections. These guys FINANCED and were responsible for the R&D that went into Vertibirds and power armor. They are unimaginably wealthy. Combine that with a paid army that ALSO, wants to survive the apocalypse, then you have a recipe for do it yourself apocalypse survival center.

This also explains why the oil rig wasn't target number one for the chinese to hit. If the actual sitting president at the time was there, the rig would have a huge target over it.

I mean look at House for fuck sakes. He was just ONE dude who was very eccentric, like Howard Hughes and look what he did. An army of security bots, access to oasers that shoot down nukes. Now imagine what a fuckload of Houses who worked out an alliance of survival with DARPA members, Generals from all branches of the military and the men under their command, various scientists not covered under CoG.

It's not that far fetched. And again, if the real CoG was killed, who the frik would know the difference. Donning the trappings of old government gives them a lot of credibility.

The real government would balk at super villainy like Curing but unscrupulous shadow organisations that existed, not to rule originally but to make profits, wouldn't mind at all.

And it still explains their vast amount of power, without turning them into some kind of united secret government.

 

[DarkCorp]

Pre-war, the enclave could have existed and had a measure of influence.

Influence like which corporation gets the contracts to what for example.

This includes R&D for weapons, vehicles, securitrons, etc.

Influence like which mercenary companies gets the lions share of U.S. government business.

Influence like who gets to build/rebuild government facilities in the U.S. and Canada.

Influence like who the government relies upon to manage affairs like Poseidon and its subsidiaries.

They had influence but mostly on the military industry side, not the geo-political and social situation. The real responsibilities and power will always be held by the government.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Pre-war, the enclave could have existed and had a measure of influence.

Influence like which corporation gets the contracts to what for example.

This includes R&D for weapons, vehicles, securitrons, etc.

Influence like which mercenary companies gets the lions share of U.S. government business.

Influence like who gets to build/rebuild government facilities in the U.S. and Canada.

Influence like who the government relies upon to manage affairs like Poseidon and its subsidiaries.

They had influence but mostly on the military industry side, not the geo-political and social situation. The real responsibilities and power will always be held by the government.

Of course they then became the government after the war, or so they claimed.

 

[DarkCorp]

Essentially.

When people think shadow government group, they automatically think, socio/political control.

There is a whole supply side of government that they ignore because its not as cool, yet its no less important.

To control government contracts, wield influence in corporate profit making, designate leadership roles over oil, etc, thse things rarely interest the public especially when compared to political and social issues.

If the public doesn't give a shit, these government folks get almost free reign.

Well, CoG has a long chain, but when that chain has been completely wiped out, whos to stop the Enclave.

 

[The-Artist-64]

What if the Enclave was founded by some sort of five star general, like Douglas MacArthur, who got 'too big for his britches', so to speak, and formed the basis of a shadow government to discretely take control of the military and challenge the authority of the federal government? With the geopolitical situation being the way it was, I wouldn't be surprised if the armed forces got sick of a weak president. The congress impeached a president for jaywalking in 2075 (a minor offense, but likely a desperate attempt to remove a terrible leader from office), so it's clear that he, whoever he was, wasn't really an adept leader.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Possible, however I doubt it could be formed over just one man, due to it's scientific and corporate connections, showing that the very least it has members in the various big businesses of America.

 

[sandercohan]

they ruined all of it..

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

I do think there were members of congress, and even the presidential staff that were members of the Enclave. (perhaps even the president before the war)
The Enclave did not directly control congress but they were darn close to it, and were looking for reasons to suspend the consitution and impose direct military rule, eliminating what little opposition there was from government officials that were not Enclave members or controlled by them.

 

[DarkCorp]

These guys want money, not to babysit a nation. They have their own empires to run already.

Plus, to control so much is risky. Too many involved, too many might talk or fuckup. Shadow government is supposed to be BEHIND the scenes.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Agreed, running a nation directly wouldn't be in their interest. I don't think Americans would be happy being ruled over by corrupt business men, generals and scientists who's only way of getting in, is by being part of the club.

 

[DarkCorp]

My idea is this.

Scientists get projectw funded.

Military gets their budget.

Business gets contracts/money.

Politicians make money providing above.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

I got it from the old source's mouth (Avellone or Sawyer, or the Fallout Bible) before Bethesda bought the franchise. I think the takeover was one of their plans because they felt the current government wasn't right wing/sympathetic to Enclave causes enough.

 

[Mr Fish]

So. Eddie Winters. He injected himself with radiation pre-war and turned into a ghoul. Yup. And Hancock? Rad drugs, far out man. Ghoul. So according to Bethesda, any radiation from any source = ghoul.