So what lore has Bethesda done gone fucked up?

[Someguy37]

Wut? I don't see him explicitly stating that. From what I see it sounds more like he's talking about dlc/main game connection with the fungus zombies from Vault 22 rather than vegetation as a whole. As to Sharecroppers, it wouldn't have to be because of the radiation yknow. Look at the vault and the state it is in. It is very possible that some other shit's gotten into the water that is messing up the Sharecroppers farm. I mean have you seen the water in Vault 34? It looks like all kinds of shit is in it. It has a really disgusting tint of green to it.

He said where did all the plants come from, not the spore plants, or the fungus zombies, ALL plants.

I have seen someone on 4chan actually attempt to map out how far Vault 22 and Big MT's plant experiments have spread. Given that spore plants appear as far as Arroyo in southern Oregon(as seen in Fallout 2) they used some radius drawing tool on some internet site, and showed that it would cover all of California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, the majority of Colorado and New Mexico, and large part of Wyoming and southern Idaho. Which is basically all of the post-war western U.S. we have seen or heard about in Fallout 1, 2, and New Vegas.

It would also explain why the Midwest was a big radioactive dust bowl, and the east cost is in a nearly equally shitty state, whereas the west coast isn't.


Also, as part of that quest you have to go to the nearby "east pump station" to check for contaminants, and it directly lists radioactive contaminants in the water, and says nothing else about any other contaminants. Also yes, the water is green.... because of all the radiation.

 

[DVL]

That's not a satisfactory explanation.
He doesn't really elaborate where all the plants come from or what the connection to the DLC's are. He could very well be referring to Zion for example, which is a sort of natural oasis in the apocalypse. Again, I presume because it's relatively isolated and a low-priority target. Isolated pockets of vegetation can grow back into the Mojave through regular old dispersion through birds and other animals as per usual.

Radiation isn't a communicable plague. A lethal dose will kill plants but anything less than that will just mutate it a bit, if at all, and not always very appreciably. I remember this being a plot point in FO2, where the Enclave have pseudoscientific standards of "purity." The genes of the general population have changed as an effect of radiation but the practical effects are nil. This is actually very much in line with real world science. And in point of fact, it's where some of our mutation bred crops come from. Just irradiating seeds to see what sticks. Corn is corn even if it's changed a bit.

Given House's explanation that he prevented most the bombs dropping, the most satisfying explanation is that the Mojave is mostly intact. A little bit mutated around the edges, but otherwise they're nearly direct descendants of the prewar Mojave. Minus a few newcomers like Xander Root, Broc Flower, Deathclaws and the like. Everything catches a dose of radiation, but as long as there is an intact population, those will grow and breed and repopulate the land as the radiation levels drop. This is way way more parsimonious than blaming everything on a handful of mad science wizards.

Avellone isn't God either, since he's flip flopped on the radiation question. With mutants being either a pulp 50's radiation, FEV or both. And he likes to leave that bit up to interpretation for homebrewed RPG games or fanfic. It seems like an odd oversight to attribute the flora entirely to some Vaults or the Big MT when they weren't even invented yet and there's a perfectly plausible explanation in the mainline game.

To provide further evidence of my point:
Hoover Dam is desirable, not just because it provides power, but because Lake Mead is a source of clean water in an otherwise dry wasteland.

 

[Someguy37]

snip

Zion couldn't have been the source because everything in Zion died according to the terminal entries. Even the plants in Zion had to come from somewhere besides there.

Not according to New Vegas, even small doses of radiation that are otherwise non-harmful to people can inhibit plant growth. They literally had an entire quest based around that fact. I don't deny that could be seen as a retcon from Fallout1/2, I'm just saying that, as per New Vegas, radiation = inhibited plant growth, and dying plants.

Given that the radiation was so intense, despite Vegas not being hit, that mostly everyone in Vegas died of radiation, the idea that it survived is directly contrary to established fact. Its also contrary to what Honest Hearts presented as well. Despite not being hit, everything in Zion died, except Clark, who hid in a cave for to months.

No hes not, hes also not the sole guy who worked on NV, nor did he make the "Hard Luck Blues" quest, or the Honest Hearts DLC, the latter being mostly Sawyer, and all of that supports his assertion as well.

 

[DVL]

snip

Zion couldn't have been the source because everything in Zion died according to the terminal entries. Even the plants in Zion had to come from somewhere besides there.

Not according to New Vegas, even small doses of radiation that are otherwise non-harmful to people can inhibit plant growth. They literally had an entire quest based around that fact. I don't deny that could be seen as a retcon from Fallout1/2, I'm just saying that, as per New Vegas, radiation = inhibited plant growth, and dying plants.

Given that the radiation was so intense, despite Vegas not being hit, that mostly everyone in Vegas died of radiation, the idea that it survived is directly contrary to established fact. Its also contrary to what Honest Hearts presented as well. Despite not being hit, everything in Zion died, except Clark, who hid in a cave for to months.

No hes not, hes also not the sole guy who worked on NV, nor did he make the "Hard Luck Blues" quest, or the Honest Hearts DLC, the latter being mostly Sawyer, and all of that supports his assertion as well.

That radiation was seepage from a leaky nuclear reactor from a Vault that got into the irrigation around the sharecropper farm.
It's like building a farm right on the groundwater of Chernobyl right after it went hot.

Aren't you the same guy that argues that the nuclear bombs are no big deal? Here you're arguing that radiation is this magic super poison.
Do you just make up ad hoc facts about canon to support whatever position?

 

[Someguy37]

That radiation was seepage from a leaky nuclear reactor from a Vault that got into the irrigation around the sharecropper farm. It's like building a farm right on the groundwater of Chernobyl right after it went hot.

Aren't you the same guy that argues that the nuclear bombs are no big deal? Here you're arguing that radiation is this magic super poison.
Do you just make up ad hoc facts about canon to support whatever position?

Yes, and in Fallout 3 we are told they can't grow stuff because they dont have access to non-radioactive water. So what New Vegas says is in direct support of that also. As is Honest Hearts saying radiation = dead everything, including plants, even in places not directly hit.

No, I'm the guy who argues that Fallout universe nukes, as stated in the Fallout 1 manual, traded most of their explosive force for radiation output, which is why tall buildings have been seen intact in every Fallout game since the first one.

How is any of this ad-hoc? This is
-A. What is said on the terminals of Honest Hearts
-B. What is said in a quest in NV
-C. A central plot point of Fallout 3.
-D. What a dev said

 

[DVL]

Actually, now that I look at it, I don't think you even read what I wrote. Please go do that.

Plants and humans can still survive to breed even if they get sick, just so long as they don't die. And there are plenty of healthy survivors too.
But you honestly think the simplest direct explanation is that they could've only survived is if they came from private mad science collections?
Tribals and other humans survived directly through the apocalypse outside of Vaults. It honestly isn't weird that plants would either.

I am not saying Zion is the only source of wildlife. Just that it's one of the few pockets of wildlife that exist. Also, "everything" dying there is an overstatement. Its tribals survived there for quite a long time just based on the strength of its natural ecology.

It's also odd that you think that anybody said or should believe that Vault 22 is the source of all flora in the Mojave, since that quest was specifically about some fertility technology that made spore zombies when you were sent to go fetch it.

You're also hanging this whole "everything must have died" thing on a very very personal interpretation that the bombs were high yield radiation bombs. But even if I grant that premise, not everything gets equally irradiated and radiation levels still clearly dropped off in the 200+ years since. Again this isn't some magic super poison.

 

[Someguy37]

Plants and humans can still survive to breed even if they get sick, just so long as they don't die.

I know, and I'm not contesting that in any way. I'm saying that, according to Honest Hearts, radiation levels in places like Zion, which wasn't directly hit, were so high that it killed everything, even the plants. The Mojave area did get hit, though not Vegas directly, and thus would have had more radiation then Zion. And if no plant life in Zion survived....

But you honestly think the simplest direct explanation is that they could've only survived is if they came from private mad science collections?

No, in fact, I think Avellone's explanation is kinda fucking dumb. I'm just saying, that's what he said, and things in-game support that.

Tribals and other humans survived directly through the apocalypse outside of Vaults.

Which is really a massive inconsistency in the writing. Raul says Mexico City got hit in the war, yet he and plenty of other people survived in its ruins immediately afterwards. Yet in places like Zion, which wasn't hit, the radiation was so deadly you couldn't leave a cave for months.

I am not saying Zion is the only source of wildlife.

Well yes, obviously things like the mutant animals survived the war, and didn't come from places like Big Mt(sans cazadors and nightstalkers at least) And shit like Punga came out from plants exposed to radiation from the war.

But all the "normal" plants we see in the west, likely from Vault 22 or big Mt, as well as the spore plants that have gone as far as Oregon.

 

[Ben Soto]

Two words; black rain.

 

[Earth]

Someguy's been very busy this past month.

 

[DVL]

First off, you don't get to just cite Avellone and interpret whatever you want to read into it because he never made any direct casual link between where the plants are from and what their connection to the DLC actually are. He mentions it offhandedly in a list. You don't just win arguments by quote bombing whatever you feel like. It's a really bad habit you have.

You quoted the Fallout 1 manual once and it pretty much measures that world's bombs in terms of tonnage TNT orders of magnitude more powerful than Hiroshoma. But the conclusion you get from it is that they're low-yield radiation bombs? What.

And why is it you get to play the writing inconsistencies card with this subject but give a free pass on Bethesda's shitty writing?
There are buildings in Boston after 200+ years but that's totally because the bombs are different.
But then you arbitrarily decide that everything in the Mojave must've died of radiation to support that belief.
When I criticize you for making stuff up ad hoc, this is exactly what I mean.

I honestly question your capacity for critical thought.
More than one species of plant can reproduces by spores. So why would the plants from Vault 22 have to travel to Oregon?
In the sentence before that you agree that those could've just as easily come about naturally by pulp sci-fi radiation.

 

[Someguy37]

snip

Then tell me what else he could have meant? I am honestly curious.
-He says the DLC explain were all the plants came from.
-Honest Hearts says all the plants in Zion died due to radiation.
-Honest Hearts also mentions that Vault 22 dwellers came to Zion and brought the spore creatures with them.
-Old World Blues provides an answer to were spore plants and monsters came from.
-Old World Blues also mentions in its endings that Big MT. is responsible for the plant experiments in Vault 22.
-The entire premise of Vault 22 is that they did some experiments with plants that got out of hand. You are sent to vault 22 by the NCR because they heard of the literal small jungle it had been producing outside itself, which contains many of the plants found in the mojave region.
-These spore plants from Vault 22/Big MT/ can be found as far as Oregon, meaning the plant seeds/spores from Vault 22/Big MT. had made it even that far as far as Fallout 2's time.
-This would explain what Avellone meant, as well as why the west coast is so different from the Midwest/East coast.

Also, what do you mean by quote bombing? You mean separating each of your points into its own quote? Is that against the rules here? Its pretty par for the course in all other forums I go to to keep individual points separate and easier to reply too. If that's against the rules here or something my bad. Its just pretty standard most everywhere else, and I wanted to keep it clean looking, and each point easily identifiable.

I never said the manual made sense, I am just going by what it said.

I said it was an inconsistency, I never said it was bad for that, or that Bethesda didn't do it themselves. I just pointed it out. Also, theres buildings in Bakersfield, LA, Chicago, and San Fran, everywhere from 80 to 200 years after the war.

How is the belief that radiation killed everything arbitrary? its whats said in Honest Hearts, and even in places it didn't kill all the people, it still killed all the plant life like in the Midwest and much of the east coast.

Spore Plants are not a natural mutation, but the result of a science experiment conducted by Big MT. and Vault 22. All spore plants HAVE to have come from there due to their non natural origins. Punga and Mutfruit being able to come form radiation doesn't work on spore plants.

 

[DVL]

-These spore plants from Vault 22/Big MT/ can be found as far as Oregon, meaning the plant seeds/spores from Vault 22/Big MT. had made it even that far as far as Fallout 2's time.
-This would explain what Avellone meant, as well as why the west coast is so different from the Midwest/East coast.

I just went over this. More than one species of plant can have spores.
Whoever said the things in Oregon are the same species?
Hell, if they can be delivered to Vault 22 and modified there, who isn't to that Big MT didn't send them to other places? Who is to say they didn't induce them through irradiation?
The zombie plague is clearly a modified result of Vault 22's experimentation and is unique to that locale.
I've been privately nursing the belief that you've failed several Science checks very very hard.

Anyway that doesn't matter. That's all a tangent anyway.
We're talking about prickly pear cacti, agave, datura, iguana, ravens and so on that would've existed long before all the mad science and bombing happened.

Also, what do you mean by quote bombing? You mean separating each of your points into its own quote? Is that against the rules here? Its pretty par for the course in all other forums I go to to keep individual points separate and easier to reply too. If that's against the rules here or something my bad. Its just pretty standard most everywhere else, and I wanted to keep it clean looking, and each point easily identifiable.

I mean that you cite sources that never support your claim and interpret them generously to mean what you want them to say. Simply finding an authority is not a slam dunk because you can quote mine and cite things.
The manual does make sense for FO1 and FO2 because most everything between civilized areas are a lot of literal wasteland. And a good majority are new settlements entirely. (Shady Sands and Vault City for example.)

Even if the manual is inconsistent, you were the one who brought it up to support a conclusion, so you clearly think it holds weight. You can't beg off of this that way.


EDIT:
I checked the Randolph Clarke entries btw.
"May 5th
The comeback goes on.

Add prickly pear to list of survivors with honey mesquite, and banana yucca. Odd nodules / mutations but safe to eat. Harvesting oh so careful, never take more than a fifth. Mouth waters every time I'm about to eat something that isn't from a can."

This is after he mentioned "nothing alive out there" but he was clearly expecting a recovery of some kind since he mentions that the Army taught him that fallout clears in 2-4 weeks (it went on longer) and that radiation levels were in fact dropping as he sheltered in the cave.

The entries directly after this one talk about new mutated life, including the Bighorn sheep turning into Bighorners.

Everything here is consistent with what I proposed above. The Mojave had fewer bombs dropped on it and that was sufficient enough for some Old World species to survive and continue on. After radiation levels drop, they just spread back into the desert proper.

 

[Someguy37]

The manual does make sense for FO1 and FO2 because most everything between civilized areas are a lot of literal wasteland. And a good majority are new settlements entirely. (Shady Sands and Vault City for example.)

How does that not makes sense? That's exactly fitting. Lower yield bombs = more radiation = more shit dead = more wasteland then there would be if there was less radiation.

Unless you believe what was shown in-game was an actual accurate representation of the wasteland, and not some heavily scaled down abstracted version with unnecessary locations removed. Sacramento can't be found on the map of Fallout 2, but we know its there as per New Vegas when they mention it. Same with the primitive tribe's camp. The maps of Fallout 1/2 are not wholly accurate, nor do they show every single small hideout of people in all the various half ruined towns across California.

Whoever said the things in Oregon are the same species? Hell, if they can be delivered to Vault 22 and modified there, who isn't to that Big MT didn't send them to other places? Who is to say they didn't induce them through irradiation?

Occams Razor would dictate that unless something specifically sated they are different, or came form a different source, or that Big MT.s directly shipped them there, they they are not/did not.

 

[DVL]

I don't need a lecture on the Razor. Anything I listed is actually more parsimonious. "Simpler" is really a terrible explanation for the principle of economy.
It requires fewer new ad hoc explanations be true than yours does.

We already accept that:
- Radiation induces mutations similar to real world mutation breeding.
- Big MT ships things to Vaults or other institutions.

The fact is that it's actually "simpler" for spore plants to have mutated independently or that they were reproduced by other scientists (science is a collaborative effort) or shipped to other facilities as well, then that they traveled to Oregon from one recently opened Vault. And mind you, this is a mutant of a mutant that made zombies, which as far as anybody knows, is unique to that Vault only. The flytrap monsters are likely a different species entirely.
And honestly, who gives a fuck about those? I don't. I'm talking about the "normal" flora and fauna.

 

[Someguy37]

I think you only believe this whole radiation bomb thing to preserve the idea that Bethesda gave their setting any real thought and even that alone isn't enough to explain why everything in the Mojave died (it didn't).

I believe it because I recall an interview Tim Cain gave a long time ago were even he said the bombs were done that way to explain why all this stuff still stood, becuase it would have been kinda boring to just have new settlements, and not gotten to explore, at least a little, ruinous remains of post-war cities.

The fact is that it's actually "simpler" for spore plants to have mutated independently or that they were reproduced by other scientists (science is a collaborative effort) or shipped to other facilities as well, then that they traveled to Oregon from one recently opened Vault. And mind you, this is a mutant of a mutant that made zombies, which as far as anybody knows, is unique to that Vault only. The flytrap monsters are likely a different species entirely.
(And why Oregon anyway? Weren't there flytrap monsters further east?)

The vault has been open since early 2096 at least. It had been open for 145 years by the time Fallout 2 began. Plenty of time for it to traveled to Oregon.

Spore plants can be found in Zion, which is further east then the Mojave. The giant mantis creatures, also a result of Vault 22, are known to go all the way to Zion, Salt Lake City, and ofc can be found all of California, as seen in Fallout 1 and 2.

 

[DVL]

Okay I was wrong about when it opened. And I admit I didn't really quite know what you were talking about. It's still a complete tangent though.


I'm still talking about the other flora and I still can find no references to the fungus zombies making their way to Oregon (which is barely mentioned at all and never visited in NV).

 

[TorontoReign]

Okay I was wrong about when it opened. And I admit I didn't really quite know what you were talking about. It's still a complete tangent though.

I'm still talking about the other flora and I still can find no references to the fungus zombies making their way to Oregon (which is barely mentioned at all and never visited in NV).

Oregon is partially visited in the old Fallout games.

 

[Someguy37]

Oregon is partially visited in the old Fallout games.

As I recall, you could find the giant mantis creatures, which come from Vault 22, near Arroyo couldn't you?

 

[DVL]

I'll admit to falsely conflated the fungal zombies with the flytraps as well, but they aren't uniquely from the Big MT.
In fact the wiki confirms that they're completely different species.
The zombie fungus was intended to be a pesticide as an adjunct to the larger agricultural project so if anything, there's no reason to assume the flytraps and mantises came from Vault 22 or Big MT. Vault 22 only studied the unmutated versions of these creatures.

I failed Science checks as well. Flytraps don't reproduces by spores. They have seeds.
Either pre-war science had an obsession with them or it was just an easy way of reusing assets.
I'm going with the latter.

I've been on here for too fucking long.

 

[TorontoReign]

Oregon is partially visited in the old Fallout games.

As I recall, you could find the giant mantis creatures, which come from Vault 22, near Arroyo couldn't you?

Yes. There are also some Oregon Cannibals near the top of the map.