STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI (HUGE SPOILERS EVERYWHERE)

V.D.D.Williams said:
I can agree with you that there are good elements in the movie and people ought to give credit where credit is due, which they actually are but, subjectivity being what it is, not everyone necessarily agrees on which are the good elements.

I dont think the vitriol is necessarily out of proportion. Neither Disney, nor Rian Johnson nor Jar Jar Abrams were born yesterday. They all knew what they were getting into. If they didnt want this level of scrutiny, then they shouldve made a new Sci Fi franchise, and then this "good movie that isnt great" would have been just fine.

PS: Could you explain what "Grognardery" is? I googled it, but I didnt find any results. I suspect its "pretty much what Im doing right now", but a more detailed definition would be nice
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The fact that not everyone agrees is one of the reasons I think it is a mediocre/okay film rather than a great one, there is almost no one on the planet who doesn't like ANH. Secondly the vitirol I am refering to is the kind of people who were saying that the only good thing about Daisy Ridley is her tits, or the youtube video linked that called Rose "Fat Asian Bitch" or Admiral Holdo "Purple Haired Cunt". Similarly there is a certain element of almost visceral reaction that I don't think the movie deserves.

Oh and Grognardery is a word I made up to describe being a Grognard, which is someone opposed to change, typically in Board/War/Role-playing games. So I feel it perfectly describes NMA
 
What I find also funny, is how comical the new thrilogy is, even though it's supposed to be actually serious. Like almost all scenes with Hux. I mean I am not sure if that was intentionally as some kind of comic relief, but when Snoke or Kylo throws him around with the force I can't help it but feel like it's something that would rather fitt into a Benny Hill show than a Star Wars movie. I mean could you imagine something like that with Vader when he choked some officer on the death star in A New Hope? It's like nothing matters in Star Wars anymore, so they jump from slap stick to serious, to stupid jokes, to serious again ... a fucking roller coaster that makes no sense.

Star Wars always contained humor, but I never felt like it was so much about just ... slap stick humor like in the Prequels and now the new trilogy.
 
Crni Vuk said:
It contains a hell of a lot bad writing. For example the part where Luke would think for a moment to kill his Nephew as he might fall to the dark side, which serves as explanation why Kylo Ren was pushed to the Dark Side. That's bad writing. As Lukes character would simply not act in such a way, from all we knew of the old movies.

Better writing would be, if Luke decided to not train Kylo anymore telling him that he's not a student of his anymore serving as a trigger pushing him to the dark side and Luke leaves the temple to the elders to tell Leia his decision. And when he returns, he sees his temple in ruins where Kylo asked the students if they are with him or against him.

Or almost every dialog between Fin and Rose. Rose in particular was a strange character which I guess the Audience was supposed to like because she worked in a meaningless position and her siste died heroically in a bomber. Again, bad writing.

Good writing would have actually showed some interaction between her and her sister, before she died in the battle. A good movie does such stuff.

Or the whole way how Snoke was treated, building up a character in The Force Awakens, teasing him as a kind of master mind working behind the scenes ... just to kill him off without any after thought? It makes you simply wonder, who is this guy, why is he so strong with the force? And why has no one heard about him ever before? Nonexistant writing, is also 'bad' writing.
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I would agree, personally I feel they sacrificed alot to bend whims of the actors, for example if Luke was bitter and old play that straight, I am not opposed to change in Luke's Character, I just feel they could have done it better. I mean your change is not very good either, why would he stop his nephew from learning, it seems as much of a plot contrivance as murder.

On the point of Rose, I would say that of all of the characters I liked her the least, and I think it is because as Sideways and BigGuyCIA points out, that they don't really have a plan, compared to Lucas. Because as bad a Writer Lucas is he is good at broad strokes, which I feel is a similar problem Bethesda have to Disney. This is that they don't really care about the meaning of the work so long as it has the things to sell it to others. Finally on Snoke, again I think this is because they felt that it was to derivative, so they need to change it up, by making the villain only Kylo Ren.

Personally, in my Ideal world the story would be set 90 years ABBY, and that Hamil is the only of the old group to appear, as a force ghost. I feel in this scenario they could have come up with cool ideas, maybe a post-Imperial neo-Fuedal group who dress like Space Samurai, but because like Bethesda they require the "things" of Star Wars, this didn't happen.

Edit: to further Clarify, also in the fantasy version, the story would have been planned with the next 2 movies.
 
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Hux is intended to be the butt of all jokes. He's the embodiment of evil, a mediocre white man who got into his position basically by inheritance, who possess no charisma, no exceptional intelligence or skill and is generally just way too satisfied with himself. He shouldn't have been the General in the first place, but he is, and that "injustice" is his entire point.
TLJ is, at the very least, a competent film. It looks gorgeous, the score is great and to some degree it is still enjoyable with a few great action scenes. Especially as a Star Wars film, though, it suffers heavily from extremely odd plot decisions, pacing, and exposition issues. I think it shows that there wasn't much of a plan for this trilogy. Now, despite what Lucas always claimed, there wasn't a fully written story for the original trilogies, either, but they at least worked properly.

For this trilogy they should have just turned the Thrawn Trilogy into movies. Ignore the Lucas-canon about the Clone Wars, too, because they sounded much more menacing in the Thrawn Trilogy.


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GOOOOOOOOD THE PHANTOM MENACE IS SO BAAAAAAAAAAAAAD
It is so disgustingly awful. Everyone complaining Rey being impossibly good at everything or anything about the new movies please remember that TPM had Anakin and the fucking Gungans. And the droid army. You think TLJ had slapstick? Just... Watch TPM again. It. Is. So. Bad.
Except for the lightsaber duel at the end. That was cool.
 
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Hassknecht said:
Hux is intended to be the butt of all jokes. He's the embodiment of evil, a mediocre white man who got into his position basically by inheritance, who possess no charisma, no exceptional intelligence or skill and is generally just way too satisfied with himself. He shouldn't have been the General in the first place, but he is, and that "injustice" is his entire point.
TLJ is, at the very least, a competent film. It looks gorgeous, the score is great and to some degree it is still enjoyable with a few great action scenes. Especially as a Star Wars film, though, it suffers heavily from extremely odd plot decisions, pacing, and exposition issues. I think it shows that there wasn't much of a plan for this trilogy. Now, despite what Lucas always claimed, there wasn't a fully written story for the original trilogies, either, but they at least worked properly.

For this trilogy they should have just turned the Thrawn Trilogy into movies. Ignore the Lucas-canon about the Clone Wars, too, because they sounded much more menacing in the Thrawn Trilogy.
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I do like your analysis of Hux, in the sense that I think he is on some level a critique of our fetishism for Nazis, and the whole idea that they were powerful and competent. Furthermore, I do agree they aren't bad films, unlike the prequels. However with Lucas, I think he had an idea of what the overall arc of the characters should be, and while there was change, most significantly the cut down of 6 to 3 movies, the general idea that Lucas had remained the same. Finally, I disagree with just straight adapting Thrawn, as the actors are old for one, and secondly because I feel that alot of the EU is trash, like alot alot. And if they took the EU in a new better direction without Yuuzhon Vong and clone emperors that would be great. So if they had really framed as the Force Awakening, i.e. there has been an absence of the Force since the death of Luke, and maybe the petering out of the New Jedi Order, and focused the story around that it would have felt more like the originals in the air of magic, which I feel is on some level absent.
 
I don't believe Lucas had the prequels planned out back then. In fact, Empire Strikes Back wasn't fully planned out and subject to change back then. Splinter of the Mind's Eye, the very first EU book, was done as a possible low budget sequel if Star Wars didn't get that big (and Luke and Leia were no siblings in that one). Sure, Lucas had a character arc in mind, but the arc is the most basic hero-story and the most basic princess&scoundrel story in front of the usual evil empire background. That's no achievement.
I agree about large parts of the EU being trash, but Thrawn Trilogy certainly isn't, so it'd be fine to do that one. Yeah, the original actors are old, but hell, I wouldn't mind new actors if that was necessary.
 
Hassknecht said:
Eh, it's fine. It gets drowned in the storm of shit that is the rest.
Gave up halfway through, can't stand this anymore.
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Weak the Force in you is, padawan... It is academical research you were watching those for, were you not?

:D
 
Fins said:
Weak the Force in you is, padawan... It is academical research you were watching those for, were you not?

:D
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Just finished it. I have to puke now.
But no, not for research :D Star Wars isn't SciFi, it's futuristic fantasy, I'll forgive all the technical inconsistencies that I'm usually a stickler for in SciFi (it comes with the trade). What I can't forgive are horrible characters and the abysmal plot.

Back to Thrawn, I really don't get why they didn't go for him. He's still part of the official canon, too, with Rebels. But having him command the Imperial Remnant in a more secular and open way and being competent would have set a way different tone. Under Thrawn and Pellaeon the Imperial Remnant just wasn't EVIL enough since they threw away the Sith bullshit, humanizing the Empire and the New Order (paradoxically by opening the Empire to non-humans and women). Of course, the Thrawn Trilogy set a different tone for the Clone Wars as the Clone Wars weren't officially formulated back then (it sounded much more like the clones being the evil guys, not the good guys that just turned against the Jedi at the last moment).
 
Hassknecht said:
Hux is intended to be the butt of all jokes. He's the embodiment of evil, a mediocre white man who got into his position basically by inheritance, who possess no charisma, no exceptional intelligence or skill and is generally just way too satisfied with himself. He shouldn't have been the General in the first place, but he is, and that "injustice" is his entire point.
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How the mighty have fallen ... where are the Tarkins and Veers in this franchise ... people are like UUH Phasma Phasma Phasma! Fuck Phasma. She has barely any screen time, gets her but always kicked and I think people only like her because of the gold armor.
 
Crni Vuk said:
How the mighty have fallen ... where are the Tarkins and Veers in this franchise ... people are like UUH Phasma Phasma Phasma! Fuck Phasma. She has barely any screen time, gets her but always kicked and I think people only like her because of the gold armor.
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What about the commander of the Dreadnought? I thought that was quite a good little scene, as it portrayed an element of antagonism between Hux and his subordinates.
 
Crni Vuk said:
How the might have fallen ... where are the Tarkins and Veers in this franchise ... people are like UUH Phasma Phasma Phasma! Fuck that. She has barely any screen time, gets her but always kicked and I think people only like her because of the gold armor.
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It's silver armor. She has been hyped before the movie as this ultra badass female commander queen of war, but then she had no screen time and gets dumped in a garbage chute. And then, when everyone's hyped about her return and vindication in the second movie, she gets her ass handed to her and dies an ignoble death. She was only there to sell toys before the movies come out, because there's nothing to her that could gather her a fandom. Somewhat similar to Boba Fett, who also got a very unwarranted fandom for what he actually does on screen.
And Veers didn't do too much on screen, either. He was kinda badass in the EU fluff, though, somehow surviving Hobbie's snowspeeder crash.
IamDaEmper0r said:
What about the commander of the Dreadnought? I thought that was quite a good little scene, as it portrayed an element of antagonism between Hux and his subordinates.
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He was pretty cool, yeah. He should have been the main commander, really, but he would have commanded too much respect for what they were going for. They needed the meek ginger boy so he'd look ridiculous.

/edit: Haha, the Wookiepedia lists Phasma to be 2 m tall while weighing 76 kg. What a warrior.
 
People defend the lack of menace of the incompetent villains saying "It's more realistic to the real world", which strikes me as the logic of someone whose idea of a villain is just that kid who harrasses them on twitter that they won't block.

Edit: The key difference between Phasma and Bobba Fett is that Bobba's popularity was entirely a creation of the fans, he was never hyped up nor did is actor make interviews selling the ever loving shit out of him before the movie came out, while Disney just forced the Phasma "Badassness" themselves. Which could've been easily solved by... GASP! Writting her as such?
 
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They maybe could have made it so that, if they REALLY didn't want to hurt Rose or Finn in any way, they could have had a third side character accompanying them besides Hackerman Serkis to kill for SOME fucking stakes. This trick is old as time itself. Aloternatively she could have murdered Hackerman outright, maybe.
 
Also, what's with everyone masturbating over Duel of the Fates as if that piece somehow redeems TPM? I find it way overrated. Too much pathos.
 
Walpknut said:
People defend the lack of menace of the incompetent villains saying "It's more realistic to the real world", which strikes me as the logic of someone whose idea of a villain is just that kid who harrasses them on twitter that they won't block.

Edit: The key difference between Phasma and Bobba Fett is that Bobba's popularity was entirely a creation of the fans, he was never hyped up nor did is actor make interviews selling the ever loving shit out of him before the movie came out, while Disney just forced the Phasma "Badassness" themselves. Which could've been easily solved by... GASP! Writting her as such?
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Personally I thought Ren was a great villain he certainly has an element of being unhinged, and wanting to be a force of nature, hence his desire to abandon the past, and become a conduit of pure power, for power's sake, which is key to any understanding of the Darksiders endgame. To me Hux isnt a villain so much as a Flunkey/Wormtongue, an underling getting to high for his station.

TBH you are right about Phasma, they should have just left her as a villain for Finn, i.e. the idea of a Trooper breaking programming is just unacceptable in her mind, so she has to destroy it.
 
Rian basically buried her as a character, and now the actress looks like a moron for droning on about how Phasma can be a bad-ass role model for strong women.

> Dumpstered in TFA
> Express ticket to Satan in TLJ

Guarantee you she's going to slip on a banana peel and fall into a sarlaac pit next ep.
 
BigGuyCIA said:
Phasma can be a bad-ass role model for strong wome
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I really don't understand the need for strong women in movies. Okay, I do because it is very wierd we don't have more and when we do its... Retarded like in the resident evil movies. But like... I don't get why people praise Phasma or wonder woman so much like their on the same level as sarah Connor or Ellen Ripley, or brienne of tarth, or oren ishii, or the bride, or buffy, or... well you get the idea.
 
IamDaEmper0r said:
Personally I thought Ren was a great villain he certainly has an element of being unhinged, and wanting to be a force of nature, hence his desire to abandon the past, and become a conduit of pure power, for power's sake, which is key to any understanding of the Darksiders endgame. To me Hux isnt a villain so much as a Flunkey/Wormtongue, an underling getting to high for his station.
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That's like shit tier anime villain characterization tbh.
 
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