Terrorist attack on French satirical magazine

If you're going to copy-paste Islamophobic nonsense, at least provide a source. Also note that most practicing Muslims will tell you that those interpretations are not their interpretations -- as can be seen by the plain fact that most practicing Muslims do not, in fact, do any of the things that propaganda would suggest they should do.

tl;dr: don't cherry-pick religious texts and then add your own warped interpretations to justify hating on a religion of 1.6 billion people.
 
That must be the reason that Merkel stated on camera that the multicultural project had failed miserably in Germany. Yeah, that must be it. :roll:
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Alec, do you think everything Obama says is the absolute truth? Do you really trust YOUR leaders when it comes to such topics? Let us be real. This is a really weak argument ...

Merkel is known to most Germans for one thing. That she has no own opinion. Of course Merkel will tell you that it failed, it would be her political suicide to go agains the mainstream opinion.

We are talking about the same person which said that EVERY(!) German nuclear reactor is perfectly save and there would be neither a reason to shut them down nor would it be possible.

Than Fukushima happend.

And suddenly the oldest nuclear reactors have been shut down. Like, almost emidiately. Because Merkel lost any support and the preasure from the nuclear lobby was not strong enough to cover that up.#

Only interesting if you understand German:


alec said:
No, she is not. And may I say that on the subject of German politics I tend to trust her opinion somewhat more than the opinion of a twenty-something Dutchman with obvious delusions of grandeur.
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She is right. But for the wrong reasons.



Seriously. Dont look for our politicians in Germany. Look for our comedians. Political satire and cabaret. You will learn a lot more about a nation from their comedians than their politicans.


I am pretty sure you know a lot of bullshit about your leaders as well.

Germany has no serious issue with radical moslems. Period.

They exist. Yes. There are around 200 known extremists in Germany, it is probably a few more. But compared to what? 200 000 neo nazis? Which also kill people since no clue ... 1946. Yet. It is the Islam we have to fear ... com on.
 
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Yeah, the Hadith is pretty much the worse thing ever. I think most Muslim people don't actually take it seriously though, so whatever. Pretty much all religious texts are "problematic" to say the least anyways.
 
Sander, why exactly is it nonsense?

And as for a source, if you had read what I had posed, it has the Quran verses included. Check for yourself if you want.

You don't need to read the comments, in fact I would have removed them if I could have been bothered.

Even without them, it's a fair point. I don't know how you can interpret "Strike off their heads and their fingertips" to be something different.

Don't just write off any and all criticism of Islam as Islamophobia, because then you're being as close minded and intolerant as the bigots you're so afraid of.
 
AlphaPromethean said:
Sander, why exactly is it nonsense?

And as for a source, if you had read what I had posed, it has the Quran verses included. Check for yourself if you want.

You don't need to read the comments, in fact I would have removed them if I could have been bothered.

Even without them, it's a fair point. I don't know how you can interpret "Strike off their heads and their fingertips" to be something different.

Don't just write off any and all criticism of Islam as Islamophobia, because then you're being as close minded and intolerant as the bigots you're so afraid of.
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Except that this isnt about criticism it is about senseless exposition. Tell us which religion does not contain bullshit. This is not the way how you criticise the Islam. This is not how you question the effect of the Islam and its meaning to the young generation of muslims.

Why don't you look at how many wars in the US have been ended with In God we Trust. How often french soldiers fighting in Vietnam used their christian herritage and view to justify their actions and colonialism. Or just take a look at Russia today and their homophobia. Poland is 98% catholic. And gay people don't have it easy there either.

Criticism is important. But what you do is not criticism.
 
AlphaPromethean said:
Sander, why exactly is it nonsense?
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Because you're cherry-picking religious texts, providing your own interpretation that almost all Islamic scholars and practitioners would disagree with, and then indicting them anyway. It's like looking at the Old Testament and going "Christians are all bloodthirsty savages." It's hateful propaganda that reinforces unreasoning Islamophobia, nothing more.

A religion is not its founding text. It is certainly not its decontextualized, cherry-picked, naively interpreted founding text. Religions are complicated, varied, multifaceted institutions. And treating them like "inherently violent" when their 1.6 billion practitioners are by and large not is ridiculous.
 
By the way, how many of you here actually know muslims that REALLY live by those texts? And no, CNN/FOX as source does not count. I mean real people. In your place.
 
Sander said:
AlphaPromethean said:
Sander, why exactly is it nonsense?
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Because you're cherry-picking religious texts, providing your own interpretation that almost all Islamic scholars and practitioners would disagree with, and then indicting them anyway. It's like looking at the Old Testament and going "Christians are all bloodthirsty savages." It's hateful propaganda that reinforces unreasoning Islamophobia, nothing more.

A religion is not its founding text. It is certainly not its decontextualized, cherry-picked, naively interpreted founding text. Religions are complicated, varied, multifaceted institutions. And treating them like "inherently violent" when their 1.6 billion practitioners are by and large not is ridiculous.
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Could you perhaps provide 18 Old Testament quotes then (as I have done so with the Quran.) that directly incite violence against non-believers by followers of the Religion?

"My own interpretation" Are you serious? Please, provide alternate explanations to several of my provided quotes, specifically the one telling followers to behead their enemies, if you are that dedicated to Islam.


Also feel free to provide context to these quotes, if you feel they have been cherrypicked so badly. I'd be interested to see the assuredly massive difference in meaning.


Many, including myself, treat Islam as inherently violent because it isn't really showing itself to be anything else.

Should I point you in the direction of a little situation in Syria, and a group called ISIS? Who are waging war with an army in the several hundred thousands? With new recruits from Western countries joining consistently?

Where is the Muslim Majority? They were up in arms and in the streets making their points clear in defense of their Religion when a satirical Cartoon show "threatened" to depict Muhammad. But it seems the majority has remained silent in the face of their Religion waging war, surely if they didn't want people to think they silently condoned the actions of extremists, they'd make their voices heard, yes?
 
Yes, yes, yes, yes ... we all got it by now Alpha. Ok? Warmongers exist only in Islam. happy now?

 
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Um, excuse me?

How do you even make that idea out of my point.

Like, at all.


Do you have an issue with responding to my questions? Or are you going to continue to block out criticism screaming "LA! LA! LA!" like a child and generalizing my point.
 
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I will chose the second option, thank youuuuuuu!

*I had already the feeling that this would go over your head. You know, there are fuck tons of religious scholars which have spend half of their life studing, learing and reading all those texts, not only in the Quaran, but also the Talmud, the Bible and pretty much any written religious text you can imagine.

Guess how many concordant interpretations there are? Why do you think there are like thousands of bigger and smaller religious groups inside the Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism. And let us not even start with the small not less important issue of wrong translations.

But yes, let us continue to just throw around religious texts completely riped out of their context and historical meaning and pretend like we understand them.

It doesnt happen that you studied islamic theology on some unversity? hmm?
 
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AlphaPromethean said:
Many, including myself, treat Islam as inherently violent because it isn't really showing itself to be anything else.
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Really? Because all I see are fringe fanatics executing terrorist attacks, and 1.6 billion Muslims not doing that. I also see Islamic scholars, including Salafi and Wahhabi scholars, denouncing violent actions. Something they do constantly. The Muslim community is constantly policing itself and making its voice heard. If you can't see that, that's because you're stuck on unreasoning Islamophobia. Instead of looking at the actual interpretations Muslim scholars have of texts, the actual interpretations they use, the actual interpretations Muslims use in their daily lives, you look at cherry-picked sources using interpretations only the most extreme fundamentalists would endorse.

In case you didn't know, Biblical texts were used to support American slavery, South African Apartheid, racial oppression in the American South, the crusades (including the Albigensian crusade), Joseph Kony's murderous army, the murder of people for being gay, and many, many other abhorrent acts. At the same time, Biblical texts were used to condemn all of those things, too. The same is true of Islam: people use the Quran and other texts to justify and condemn the very same acts. Religion is not its text, it is its interpretation and application -- and the interpretation and application of Islam is not particularly more or less inherently violent than that of any other religion.

AlphaPromethean said:
Where is the Muslim Majority? They were up in arms and in the streets making their points clear in defense of their Religion when a satirical Cartoon show "threatened" to depict Muhammad. But it seems the majority has remained silent in the face of their Religion waging war, surely if they didn't want people to think they silently condoned the actions of extremists, they'd make their voices heard, yes?
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They do. You're just not listening. There were plenty of Muslims in all of the spontaneous protests the past two days. And every Muslim organization has denounced and condemned those terrorist attacks. As they do every time there's a terrorist attack. As they do constantly in their own mosques. Here's a neat overview of just a few Muslim groups to have done so in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo murders from all over the world. Your local mosque is almost certainly doing the very same thing.
 
What's sad, is that the regular muslims will be dealing with the fallout in the western world, as stupid people will probably direct their anger over this to them, or see it as yet another justification for some racist or anti-immigration or anti-muslim belief.

But yeah, Crni, reducing Alpha's argument to: "Warmongers only exist in Islam" is a very derisive and wrong generalization. Show some respect for other people's opinions.
 
There is no such thing as a "real" interpretation, as there are dozens of variations and sub-variations of Islam that all interpret verses differently and emphasize. You'd have to ask specific Muslims which tenets they adhere to, which scholars they listen to, and you can Google all of that for specific tenets. By and large, modern Muslim tenets tend to interpret verses containing violence as occurring in that specific historical context, not to be transposed to modern contexts. They tend to interpret 'jihad' as referring to internal, spiritual war. They tend to emphasize the verses where the Quran states that killing is abhorrent and violence is to be used for self-defense only. Whether or not you think that's congruous with the text doesn't matter: that's how the actual practitioners of the faith practice their faith.

In fact, if you were actually interested in answers, I'd imagine that you'd be Googling those verses right now. And you'd find that those places where Muslims pronounce and explain their faith contain many explanations of Islam as a religion that condemns violence, explaining the meaning of those verses as they see them. See, for instance, AboutJihad.com's pages on Quran "misquotes". Or IslamicStudies.info, which contains similarly benevolent interpretations of those verses. You will find such interpretations everywhere where actual Muslims are interpreting their own faith (with the exception of violent, fundamentalist extremists, obviously).

Long story short: if you want to know how people interpret their faith, you should be asking those people how they interpret their faith. And not looking at people outside of that faith with obvious agendas.

EDIT: This was in reply to someone who has deleted his question in the interim. Okay then.
 
alec said:
Horrendous? Say hello to the future of Europe. This is the kind of world the last two generations of politicians have created for you and your children. You should be glad. It's a utopia, you just fail to see it. Just listen to liberal left: multiculturalism is the most responsible population policy ever. To quote John Derbyshire:

The Diversity Theorem: Groups of people from anywhere in the world, mixed together in any numbers and proportions whatsoever, will eventually settle down as a harmonious society, appreciating—nay, celebrating!—their differences... which will of course soon disappear entirely.
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You just have to be a bit patient. You see muslim terrorist attacks, I see well-meant, but somewhat amateurish attempts to integrate. The death of a couple of cartoonists, a couple of journalists, a couple of policemen, ... it is only a small price to pay for the grand multicultural project. Sacrifices need to be made.

Just be patient. In a couple of weeks, months, maybe years, Europe will be the glorious peaceful meltingpot that it strives to be. I'm a fan. Are you? :roll:
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I fixed it for you buddy.
 
http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/surah8_12.htm

One often quoted verse used against Muslims is that of Surah 8, ayat 12. The verse reads as:

"I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

Anti-Islamics like to always bring this up and claim that this verse proves that Islam promotes terrorism and that the Quran orders Muslims to go and chop people's heads off along with their finger tips.
To begin, this verse is referring to a SPECIFIC BATTLE, this verse is not an order on Muslims, and this verse is talking about a battle that took place. The battle it is referring to is the battle of Badr.

So there is nothing barbaric or mean about these verses, it is simply referring to a battle, and nothing barbaric was done in the battle neither these were how battles were fought back then.
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Looks like it might be just misinterpretation after all. All those quotes from Quran that AlphaPrometean posted are taken out of context. Just as some lunatic Christian will want to kill all homosexuals or transsexuals because in Bible there are some verses that are against them.
 
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Local news showed a conversation between Chérif (one of the lunatics who attacked Charlie Hebdo) and a negociator, and it is chilling to say the least.

To hear him say it, he didn't kill anybody that day. He defended the word of his god, then defended his life when he was attacked in response. He then gets angry at the nogociator when he asked if he will kill his hostages, claiming he's not ''like you'' and doesn't kill in cold blood.

Like I said, one sick fucker.

Another thing to note; all 4 terrorists were born in poor Arab districts, in the quasi-notorious Banlieues of France. At least two of them were petty criminals who became radicals after a trip to prison (which in France are very run-down and have a disproportionate concentration of arabs/muslims, a breeding ground for nutjobs if there ever was one). And as some dude on TV said, stopping people from buying guns in Europe, especially in a post-Soviet world where AK-47 clones are dime a dozen, is a fool's errand.
 
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