Terrorist attack on French satirical magazine

[Crni Vuk]

You know, there are normal muslims as well, most of them are actually not so different from us.

If you think anybody here thinks this is even remotely untrue you are extremely dimwitted.

Right. Havn't you read Alecs statements where he tries to tell me, a German, how the situation is in Germany. I am living here. I am reading about our politicans. I am trying to learn about the role of Islam and the Right Wing in Germany.

Have you read this topic at all? I am not saying that all of my points have to be correct, hell it is just opinions we are talking about. But I also provided numbers and the Islam is a very very very very very tiny issue in Germany compared to the rising right wing in Germany - and not just neo nazis. I can not say anything about France, Belgium, the Netherlands or Britian or what ever. Maybe they have it worse? No clue!

I am not talking about you in particular though, but if we talk about the Islam as whole and not its role in Europe in particular, than there is a notoriously anti-islamic vibe in this topic and some denny the Islam ANY kind of critical voices painting it as something that it simply isnt.

The Islam is NOT a clear uniform religion. A growing number of Islamic scholars demand the secularisation of Islamic states - separation of church and state. The Islam for it self knows hundrets if not even thousands of splinter groups and teachings, just as the Christian religion.

See. The issue is when muslim terrorists attack someone, its coming from the "Islam". When you talk about crazy Jehovah's Witnesses than you are talking about crazy Jehovah's Witnesses not about crazy christians, because most people know that Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT all christians and we do not believe that christianity as whole is the root of their crazy ideas.

We measure the Islam and Christianty on different standarts.

 

[Akratus]

One sees what one wants to see. Nobody here has been critical of the entirety of islam or all islamic people, the majority of whom obviously live mostly morally good lives. Trying to make the dreaded, opposing, white-supremacist, fascist, satanist, immoral, mra, anti-feminist, chauvinist, caucasian THEY! seem islamophobic just makes you look delusional.

 

[Walpknut]

Religious People you are cray cray...

 

[Crni Vuk]

So, yes: muslims.

I am not going trough 12 pages of posts just to dig up again the islamophobic posts by some individuals here which hold Christianty and the Islam on two different standarts.

I defend the Islam. Why do I defend the Islam? Because I believe it is the right thing to do in the eyes of such terroristic attacks. Not because I like the Islam or because I am religious. But I have grown up with so many Muslims, Arbas, Maroccans, Turks, I have worked with African muslims, Afghans and many more people. And most of them have been inteligent, tolerant and normal people.

And when we talked about religion and this was in the wake of 9/11, they had to deal with a lot of anti-islamic vibes. You know it is not the hate spech by Neo Nazis that is the problem. It is the "You know, I dont have a problem with immigrants but (insert-your-typical-anti-islamic-stuff)"

I had to deal with EXACT SAME SHIT when it was about Kosovo. The exact same shit. Like literaly. How can Serbia do this? What do you feel about them? Did you knew that they are all criminals! It is a genocide! And all the other bullshit, and no matter how often I tell people that I have grown up in Germany, that I am born in Germany that I feel more German. People hear my name, and because it is not Peter, Fritz or Thomas, they made up their mind about me and Serbia and act like I have to appologize for something or that I knew as teenager that is, in detail what happened down there - when not even most Germans knew it
... I was once attacked by some Albanian girl which fleed from Kosovo, and she broke out in tears calling me a criminal while the class was grouped around her giving her support.

I understand moslems because I was often enough in similar situations where I feelt as teenager embarassed for my heritage where people question you all the time just because of your name.

 

[Walpknut]

Must really suck being of middle eastern descent or immigrant in the west, wether you follow Islam or not, because crazy people keep doing things in your name without asking.

 

[Sander]

One sees what one wants to see. Nobody here has been critical of the entirety of islam or all islamic people, the majority of whom obviously live mostly morally good lives. Trying to make the dreaded, opposing, white-supremacist, fascist, satanist, immoral, mra, anti-feminist, chauvinist, caucasian THEY! seem islamophobic just makes you look delusional.

The PVV, FN, UKIP and similar explicitly anti-Islam political parties are getting significant voting shares, mosques and other businesses commonly associated with Muslims are attacked with disturbing frequency (especially over the last few days), and people in this thread have talked about Islam as inherently violent, have said that crusaders should have "finished the job," have objected to treating Muslims like any other human being and have called for people to defend their "culture" from the threat of Islam.

I don't think there's anything delusional about acknowledging the widespread Islamophobia and dehumanization of Muslims.

 

[Kilus]

I never really knew why people went to the right till I saw the shitcake response to these attacks from the authoritarian left.

Like this excellent Teju Cole article?

Yes. This is the best written victim blaming article I have ever read.

 

[Sander]

I never really knew why people went to the right till I saw the shitcake response to these attacks from the authoritarian left.

Like this excellent Teju Cole article?

Yes. This is the best written victim blaming article I have ever read.

I see this reaction a lot. I don't understand it. That article and every article like it (at least the ones I've read), makes it absolutely clear that they are not blaming the victim. That no one deserves to die or to suffer violence for what they've written. That what happened was completely inexcusable.

They're also pointing out that defending someone's right to make racist cartoons does not need to entail endorsing racist cartoons, but that those two things are too often conflated in the reactions to these attacks. Some, like Teju Cole, point out that we do not proportionately react to death. Others, including Cole, point out that violence is not unidirectional -- that we should condemn the violence we receive, but also examine the violence we inflict. You know. Understand the world as it is, with complexities.

How is that victim blaming? And how is it authoritarian?

 

[No Man]

Y'know, since we're on the subject of racism, I'm reminded of a joke (might seem antisemitic at first, but don't diss it until you get to the end):

It's the 1930s, a Nazi German school. A history teacher is asking his students:
-Vhy did Germany lose ze Great Var? Hans!
-Because ze Jews deserted from ze front lines! - says Hans.
-Very gut, Hans! Vhy else? Helga!
-Because ze Jews vere stealing supplies! - says Helga.
-Gut, gut... Now, Shlomi, you no-good, stinking Jew! Vhy did Germany lose ze Great War?
-Because zere vere Jews in ze general staff!
-Zat's a lie! Zere vere only pure Germans in ze general staff!
-I'm not talking about ze German gereral staff. - replied Shomi.

It has absolute nothing to do with the discussion, but I figured the atmosphere was getting kinda tense.

 

[Akratus]

One sees what one wants to see. Nobody here has been critical of the entirety of islam or all islamic people, the majority of whom obviously live mostly morally good lives. Trying to make the dreaded, opposing, white-supremacist, fascist, satanist, immoral, mra, anti-feminist, chauvinist, caucasian THEY! seem islamophobic just makes you look delusional.

The PVV, FN, UKIP and similar explicitly anti-Islam political parties are getting significant voting shares, mosques and other businesses commonly associated with Muslims are attacked with disturbing frequency (especially over the last few days), and people in this thread have talked about Islam as inherently violent, have said that crusaders should have "finished the job," have objected to treating Muslims like any other human being and have called for people to defend their "culture" from the threat of Islam.

You are a hatemonger, and so is Alec, and so am I. So is anyone who allows themselves to be a puppet of the far left or far right or whatever political side, or it's detractors. Extremely leftist sentiment has got it's hand up your ass moving your mouth like a puppet, and anti-leftist hate has got it's hand up Alec's. NMA has been reduced to a bullshit three ring circus sideshow of freaks.

Because some people going overboard with criticism of Islam paints all critics of Islam. One nutjob filling his head with leftist rhetoric makes one shout oikophobia left and right.

Obviously nobody is actually speaking to another human being. We're just trying to stab our arguments into the face of an amorphous opposition. Because Alec, the PVV, Geert Wilders, Fascists, and all the other far right nutjobs are all one weed sprouting up everywhere and only by shouting at it until it goes away can we remove the need to shout of course.



Here lies NMA's Political Discourse, may it rest in peace.

I look forward to seeing you all in the insane asylum in a couple of years. Until then. I'm fucking cleansing myself of this whole cirlejerk of selfrightious indignation, bubbling under the pretense of legitimate argumentation, with some kind of perceived progress. Whilst it's actually a back and forth. It's all just a game. Someone moves the ball forward a bit, someone comes and rolls it back a bit. It's all just a game. You just gotta realize we're all already dead. After that it's easy.

Edit: I still like Alec though.

 

[Hassknecht]

And the only way to fix it is to flush it all away?
Either way, political discourse is always quite terrible. Few people are really willing to give up on their opinions and world views, especially if they are convinced that they're right.

 

[Kilus]

Yes. This is the best written victim blaming article I have ever read.

I see this reaction a lot. I don't understand it. That article and every article like it (at least the ones I've read), makes it absolutely clear that they are not blaming the victim. That no one deserves to die or to suffer violence for what they've written. That what happened was completely inexcusable.

They're also pointing out that defending someone's right to make racist cartoons does not need to entail endorsing racist cartoons, but that those two things are too often conflated in the reactions to these attacks. Some, like Teju Cole, point out that we do not proportionately react to death. Others, including Cole, point out that violence is not unidirectional -- that we should condemn the violence we receive, but also examine the violence we inflict. You know. Understand the world as it is, with complexities.

How is that victim blaming? And how is it authoritarian?

Of fucking course everyone condemns the attack and says it is a tragedy that 12 people died in the attack. It is a no brainier of a position to take. Thus you get zero points for having this position and stating it offers no form of defence.

But this wasn't just an attack designed to kill. It was also designed to silence(and from my understanding this was the primary purpose of the attack). And that is what reposting the comics is about. That is what all the shitty drawing are about. It is not about endorsing anything. It is one voice refusing to even consider silence a valid response to this attack. It is one voice refusing the entire concept of silence. It is one voice that makes bullets and death and terrorism irrelevant. It is one voice.

But the authoritarian left just can't leave shit alone. They just had to add unneeded but. Like every crap rape article that says 'rape is wrong' and then adds in some form of 'but they were dressed provocatively'. Talking about how tragic the attacks were and then adding 'but Charlie Hebdo is racist' is the classic victim blaming move.

 

[Tagaziel]

You are a hatemonger, and so is Alec, and so am I. So is anyone who allows themselves to be a puppet of the far left or far right or whatever political side, or it's detractors. Extremely leftist sentiment has got it's hand up your ass moving your mouth like a puppet, and anti-leftist hate has got it's hand up Alec's. NMA has been reduced to a bullshit three ring circus sideshow of freaks.

Sander is an extreme leftist? What the fuck are you drinking son?

But this wasn't just an attack designed to kill. It was also designed to silence(and from my understanding this was the primary purpose of the attack). And that is what reposting the comics is about. That is what all the shitty drawing are about. It is not about endorsing anything. It is one voice refusing to even consider silence a valid response to this attack. It is one voice refusing the entire concept of silence. It is one voice that makes bullets and death and terrorism irrelevant. It is one voice.

I wouldn't say it was designed to silence, because it was made clear time and again that violence doesn't silence anything, it has the opposite reaction. I think it was a move designed to provoke the right wing fucknuggets into screaming fits of "Multiculturalism is bad! Get rid of the moosleems! Arabs to concentration camps! I shit myself! France for frogs!"

The overwhelming majority of Muslims across Europe doesn't give a flying fuck about radical Islam, the caliphate, and a lot don't give a damn about Islam at all. That's because have integrated into the community and are treated as normal, everyday people. If the far right fucknuggets go off their rocker and start attacking people vaguely connected to Islam or countries popularly considered Islamic, this will alienate a lot of people - and push them into the arms of radical Islam.

Of course, realizing that would require brains and these are in short supply over on the right side of politics.

But the authoritarian left just can't leave shit alone. They just had to add unneeded but. Like every crap rape article that says 'rape is wrong' and then adds in some form of 'but they were dressed provocatively'. Talking about how tragic the attacks were and then adding 'but Charlie Hebdo is racist' is the classic victim blaming move.

No, no it is not. Nobody says Charlie Habdo brought it on themselves or trying to reduce the culpability of the assailants in any other way. Observing that Charlie Hebdo has deliberately posted offensive content as part of their continuing satire is not victim blaming. Here's the difference:

1. Charlie Hebdo was attacked by Islamic extremists. Charlie Hebdo published Islamic satire in the past.

2. Charlie Hebdo provoked Islamic extremists to attack it by publishing Islamic satire.

Or, to use your analogy:

1. A woman was raped. She wore a mini skirt and white blouse.

2. A woman was raped because she dressed provocatively.

Personally, I'd first ask Muslims if they found Charlie Hebdo satire offensive, and I mean polling a statistically significant group of Muslims, rather than assuming that all Muslims get offended by it. Assuming that all Muslims are too stupid to grasp satire is extremism of a different sort.

On a side note, the most repuslive thing is fundamentalist Christians writing that they provoked the Muslims with their satire and suggesting instituting laws limiting free speech. Certain fucking morons from Poland have actually explicitly said this and suggested that blasphemy-punishing criminal regulations should be published. For shits and giggles, Poland still has blasphemy laws in effect.

 

[Sander]

Sander is an extreme leftist? What the fuck are you drinking son?

Well I am, but I wouldn't call "treat Muslims as human beings" a particularly extreme opinion.

Of fucking course everyone condemns the attack and says it is a tragedy that 12 people died in the attack. It is a no brainier of a position to take. Thus you get zero points for having this position and stating it offers no form of defence.

But this wasn't just an attack designed to kill. It was also designed to silence(and from my understanding this was the primary purpose of the attack). And that is what reposting the comics is about. That is what all the shitty drawing are about. It is not about endorsing anything. It is one voice refusing to even consider silence a valid response to this attack. It is one voice refusing the entire concept of silence. It is one voice that makes bullets and death and terrorism irrelevant. It is one voice.

But the authoritarian left just can't leave shit alone. They just had to add unneeded but. Like every crap rape article that says 'rape is wrong' and then adds in some form of 'but they were dressed provocatively'. Talking about how tragic the attacks were and then adding 'but Charlie Hebdo is racist' is the classic victim blaming move.

What baffles me is that this victim blaming response is explicitly contradicted by these articles. And no one I know who agrees with those articles interprets them that way, either. Perhaps some do -- I don't know -- but I (and those articles) and everyone I know would repudiate that.

There was never a real danger that this move would shut up outlets like Charlie Hebdo. Not only did they receive an outpouring of support from places across "the West," you saw the same thing in Muslim countries. Even Hezbollah is speaking up against the attack. The sentiment behind sharing those drawings is certainly admirable. But that doesn't mean we need to be blind to the complexities of both Charlie Hebdo and the way we react to some deaths and not to others.

But I wouldn't call these articles "unneeded" at all. Islamophobic parties across most of Europe are gaining more and more power, anti-Muslim sentiment is basically mainstream, terrorist attacks on Muslims, Mosques and Muslims businesses have been frequent in the wake of these attacks and before. I don't know what it's like in Australia, but that's a serious problem here. And speaking up against that is not unneeded at all -- certainly not in the wake of a tragedy which stirs up more anti-Muslim sentiment. In fact, I would say it is needed more now than ever -- because if people don't write these articles, if they don't speak up, then we simply reaffirm the status quo. And that is not okay.

Again, though, how is this authoritarian?

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

I wouldn't say it was designed to silence, because it was made clear time and again that violence doesn't silence anything, it has the opposite reaction.

Those two dudes strike you as being smart enough to consider that? Kind of a stretch.

I think it was a move designed to provoke the right wing fucknuggets into screaming fits of "Multiculturalism is bad! Get rid of the moosleems! Arabs to concentration camps! I shit myself! France for frogs!"

Take a deep breath fella.

Personally, I'd first ask Muslims if they found Charlie Hebdo satire offensive, and I mean polling a statistically significant group of Muslims, rather than assuming that all Muslims get offended by it. Assuming that all Muslims are too stupid to grasp satire is extremism of a different sort.

Who ever said Muslims don't get satire? These two guys couldn't handle an offensive cartoon about their prophet and went on a murderous rampage. This has nothing to do with 'getting the joke' or not. Too stupid to get satire? Where's this coming from?

 

[No Man]

Poland still has blasphemy laws in effect? Only thing I found was called 'insulting religious feelings' and it's illegal to do so by 'publicly insulting an object of worship or a place of worship' or 'maliciously disturbing a religious gathering' (like a mass or a funeral). Is that it? Okay, I see your point there. BTW, isn't there some kind Constitutional Tribunal case about that one? Also, you speak as though 'for shits and giggles' was a bad reason.

Also, 'certain fucking morons' are constantly spewing all kinds of complete and utter bullshit. Just keeping up with it, much less taking it seriously can be very damaging to your sanity. None of this means it will even be considered as a serious proposition, much less a real law. If that was the case we would have a special investigators chasing after some 'gender ideology' (a term used by some Catholic hardliners, let's not discuss what it means, because it means absolutely fucking nothing) THEM, who are supposedly creeping into our kindergardens and dressing boys up as girls, sexualising children, painting the moon pink and carving a Lenin face on the surface - that sort of thing. That's because Beata Kempa is batshit insane. She is a good source of cheap entertainment, though, admit it.

Bottom line is: nothing is happening, no groundbreaking event that will change our lives forever, sky ain't falling down on our heads, shit is as 'business as usual' as always, nothing to see here, no matter what drama your favourite news channel is trying to get you hooked on, move along. BTW, that last sentence is generally true in regards to almost every story on TV.

realizing that would require brains and these are in short supply over on the right side of politics

I agree 100%. Well, not really. The guys in charge are pretty smart. The politicians on the right do get elected. That is the goal. So do politicians on the left. Either side is willing to lie, cheat and generally fuck up anything to get there. Anything that gets them to that goal is smart from this viewpoint. The stupid ones are the sheep that actually believe that there are any 'good guys' in politics.

 

[Tagaziel]

Those two dudes strike you as being smart enough to consider that? Kind of a stretch.

Yes, the perpetrators were smart. It's a terrifying, reprehensible use of intelligence and training, but just because it's horrible doesn't mean the perpetrators were stupid. I wouldn't call Breivik stupid, even though I find his views terrible.

Who ever said Muslims don't get satire? These two guys couldn't handle an offensive cartoon about their prophet and went on a murderous rampage. This has nothing to do with 'getting the joke' or not. Too stupid to get satire? Where's this coming from?

If you think it's two random guys going on a random rampage, it's your prerogative. I doubt it's that simple, especially given how it was executed.

Poland still has blasphemy laws in effect? Only thing I found was called 'insulting religious feelings' and it's illegal to do so by 'publicly insulting an object of worship or a place of worship' or 'maliciously disturbing a religious gathering' (like a mass or a funeral). Is that it? Okay, I see your point there. BTW, isn't there some kind Constitutional Tribunal case about that one? Also, you speak as though 'for shits and giggles' was a bad reason.

It's basically blasphemy law. It allows Catholibs like Terlikowski to take to court and harass everyone and everything they disagree with, on the basis of it insulting their religious beliefs. All the hurt feelings, look at them!


Most European countries don't have anything like this, particularly in what is traditionally considered the West.

Also, 'certain fucking morons' are constantly spewing all kinds of complete and utter bullshit. Just keeping up with it, much less taking it seriously can be very damaging to your sanity. None of this means it will even be considered as a serious proposition, much less a real law. If that was the case we would have a special investigators chasing after some 'gender ideology' (a term used by some Catholic hardliners, let's not discuss what it means, because it means absolutely fucking nothing) THEM, who are supposedly creeping into our kindergardens and dressing boys up as girls. Bottom line is: nothing is happening, no groundbreaking event that will change our lives forever, sky ain't falling down on our heads, shit is as 'business as usual' as always, nothing to see here, no matter what drama your favourite news channel is trying to get you hooked on, move along. BTW, that last sentence is generally true in regards to almost every story on TV.

I'm Polish, so I have an idea of what you're talking about.

I agree 100%. Well, not really. The guys in charge are pretty smart. The politicians on the right do get elected. That is the goal. So do politicians on the left. Either side is willing to lie, cheat and generally fuck up anything to get there. Anything that gets them to that goal is smart from this viewpoint. The stupid ones are the sheep that actually believe that there are any 'good guys' in politics.

I don't agree with this viewpoint, though. Politicians are a reflection of the society that elects them.


It's also a question of the damage being done. Right wing rhetoric and creatures of UKIP, FN, and scum like Geert Wilders can and are damaging the society and actively trying to destroy any chances at integrating immigrants into Europe and retaining those who have already integrated themselves.


It's kind of like with PiS, really. It is stuck as the opposition party, but its screams and pseudo-intellectual drooling both damage the reputation of Poland abroad and encourage the far right and Catholibs to rear their heads and attack the democratic state that was hard won in 1989. Hell, the heinous attacks on the Republic are only a few steps removed from outright fascist rhetoric.

 

[No Man]

It's basically blasphemy law.

It was kinda hard to give a shit when Nergal or Doda were prosecuted, but the Poland's chief troll and self-proclaimed jewcommunist Urban is way too likable to just ignore.

It's kind of like with PiS, really. It is stuck as the opposition party, but its screams and pseudo-intellectual drooling both damage the reputation of Poland abroad and encourage the far right and Catholibs to rear their heads and attack the democratic state that was hard won in 1989. Hell, the heinous attacks on the Republic are only a few steps removed from outright fascist rhetoric.

Ah, the party of Lord Prezes (my prefered way of refering to Yaro, second to Darth Prezes, but I like the Sith too much to use it). The only party so bad, that the ruling party actually used 'It is us or PiS!' as their main slogan for the election. As you can see our democracy is quite unique. We do not vote 'for', we vote 'against'.

I have to admit that one thing when they marched with torches across Warsaw was kinda creepy. But y'know, like Monty Python taught us, always look at the bright side of life. Or if you can't, just have a look at dear old Becia Kempa and have a laugh. You just can't stay mad at someone so adorable.

You might think all this stuff is bad, but if you think about it, we can save money on comedians, because this shit is already hilarious.

I wouldn't call Breivik stupid

As I understand it, Breivik attempted to kill the future (party youth) of the party that enables high immigration into Norway. By this logic, if he had achieved this, then the party would be kinda reduced in size after a significant delay. Like a very long prison sentence. It makes a lot of sense if you take away some holes in his plans. He also has a cool goatee.

Or maybe he just needed a place to crash for a few decades and decided that he might as well kill some people while he's at it.

 

[Crni Vuk]

And the only way to fix it is to flush it all away?
Either way, political discourse is always quite terrible. Few people are really willing to give up on their opinions and world views, especially if they are convinced that they're right.

Well, It is not my problem if some people can't see the issue with right wing opinions and the effect it has on the German society as whole while the popular opinion is talking about the Islam and what meaning it has for Germany and Europe.

This is not really so much about opinions anymore but the reality.

We can talk about opinions. What we think about the Islam. What it means for Europe and the nations in Europe.

But if you ask me it has nothing to do with reality if we keep talking about a group of people as maybe only 2,5% of the population in Germany are Muslims while you have on the other side 10 000 PEGIDA followers marching trough Dresden mixed with all kinds of xenophobic people and opinions which also include neo-fascists. Or when we have neo-Nazis killing people for decades in Germany and right wing politicians making their way in to the state parliament of Saxon, or known lawyers which are notoriously known for their neo-Nazi clientele, lawyers which get even jobs offered by some local authorities. If we have around 20% of the population in Germany believing in radical xenophobic opinions with hostile views against immigrant minorities.

More and more right wing opinions become popular and presentable, and the real new thing not only in the lower class which was always a breeding ground for such opinions but also the middle class. I experience this evolution even here with many people that I know, where people don't think for them self but just parrot the same old shit you hear from popular TV stations - what surprise. The unreasonable form of xenophobia.


And we are ignoring all of this while we keep talking about a very small group of people. Radical Islam is on the rise, in Germany and Europe. No one with a brain can deny that. And yes we DO have to talk about it, discuss it, finding ways how to deal with it.

But at least for Germany the Islam for it self is NO danger and it is NOT in the position to change our society. Not today and not tomorrow. Again, I can ONLY talk for Germany here. And the Islam and Moslems here see a very unproportional amount of attention at the moment compared to their power and danger which is creating only hysteria while we ignore the real problems in our society which often enough come from the right wing.

Again. This has nothing to do with opinion. I experienced it. And many of the numbers speak their own language. There are well-known institutions in Germany studing the right wing scene.

 

[Walpknut]

Religion is a group hallucination, and a very silly one at that.