Terrorist attack on French satirical magazine

[Akratus]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30710883

Gunmen have attacked the Paris office of French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, killing 12 people and injuring seven in an apparent Islamist attack.

The satirical weekly has courted controversy in the past with its irreverent take on news and current affairs. It was fire-bombed in November 2011 a day after it carried a caricature of the Prophet Muhammad.The latest tweet on Charlie Hebdo's account was a cartoon of the Islamic State militant group leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

When one speaks of the existence, to at least a certain extent, of a violent culture in the religion of islam, one all too easily falls into the trap of a racist or islamophobe. Now I'm not saying that this and the rest of violent islamic history could be used in anything close to a generalization. But I've heard many people, far more learned than me, espouse the view that criticism to the acceptance of violence for many muslims and the inherent ideas of violence in the Quran, are all too often left by the wayside of discourse.



I've also seen the argument made, that many people will come out in support of the depictions of Mohammed published in this magazine, but would not stand up for americans who would want to exercise their right in making similar depictions, such as in a book censored by Yale Pres: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/books/13book.html?_r=0

But this incident itself is not about that. (And I think many here will wisely want to stay away from that conversation)
It´s merely a very sad state of affairs, where 12 people lost their lives merely for their artistic work.

 

[Cyberfiend]

As a general rule I cannot bear Le Front National, but right now I'm starting to wonder if Marine is exactly what France needs right now. This CANNOT happen again. Not in France. Not in MY France.

I'm sorry, but this news makes my heart hurt.

 

[Akratus]

You live in France?

 

[Cyberfiend]

You live in France?

Used too. As soon as Uni is out the way I'm moving back. Probably to Bretagne. The dream would be to go back to Huelgoat (absolutely gorgeous place),but it all depends on where I can find work, basically.

 

[Sander]

It's awful. I feel terrible for the people killed and injured, and their families. It's a terror attack on the freedom of the press, aimed at shutting up critical voices. Horrible. I hope they catch whoever did this.

@Akratus: You basically just produced a bunch of islamophobic arguments, and then said "but this argument is not about that so let's not talk about it." What? Either you want to talk about it, in which case you bring it up and actually discuss it, or you don't -- in which case you don't first present a bunch of islamophobic theories. Just say what you want to say without the damn waffling.

A bunch of violent extremists don't represent any religion. We didn't go "culture of violence in Christianity" when the IRA or ETA killed a bunch of folks. Or when folks burned mosques in Sweden a few days ago. Or when Anders Breivik decided to defend the noble European culture by murdering dozens of children. Nope -- then we start talking about nuance and differentiation and factions and groups and beliefs and outliers. But when we start talking about Islam, we suddenly start talking in generalities, about the "culture of violence" in a religion representing something like 1.6 billion people all over the world.

 

[oxidize]

In his last caricature that was published this week in Charlie Hebdo, Stephan Charbonier, one of the killed journalists "predicted" his death.
In the picture we can see Taliban under a title There still hasn't been any executions in France. The Taliban says "Wait till end of January for us to send you his(Mohammed) greetings."
Bizzare.

 

[MutantScalper]

Interesting how these guys targeted a left wing - magazine, not a right wing - magazine that would be already anti-Islam etc. Or they didn't attack Marine Le Pen's party etc. They attacked the 'undecideds'. That's an important point in my opinion. In a way these guys and the islamophobe - crew are one and the same and rational people should oppose both of them.

 

[Nas92]

Or when folks burned mosques in Sweden a few days ago.

Regarding the above quote I'm thinking we're gonna see a lot of crimes like this in the future. White guilt only goes so far, there will be a point where most everyone will rise up and realise their attempts at tolerance is perceived as weakness by the people (immigrants and certain minorities) they're being tolerant towards. Unfortunately, this also entails that the non-extremist people of those minorities will suffer too. I wonder if the higher EU officials (since this is mostly a European problem) realise this or if they even care.

 

[Cyberfiend]

Tbf, in the UK, the IRA are considered as being a bunch of nutty Catholic terrorists. And while their Catholicism does play a role in why the IRA does what it does, their main gripe is that they believe Britain have continue to colonise their land (I.e: NI) after literally centuries of oppression, and want to reclaim it.

As for ETA, while religion does play its role when it comes to their motives, the ETA are a national-separatist movement first and foremost.

Same with Breivik, his motives were to "defend European culture from foreign influence". Your typical Neo-traditionalist. While he ID'ed with Christianity, and was vehemently against Islam and Judaism, his religious position was that of a social one. Basically, he wasn't particularly religious per se, but he believed in upholding up the Christian legacy in Europe for cultural reason more than anything.

Basically, while all the examples you've mentioned have connections to Christianity but their motives behind their actions aren't really BECAUSE of Christianity. While in this case 12 people were killed SPECIFICALLY because the satirists "offended Islam". This incident was caused because of religious fanaticism, which IS an going problem for Muslim communities (who are threatened by these fanatics just as much as the rest of us - just look at what happened in Pakistan for crying out loud)

Now, you're right that it's wrong to generalise Islam as being a culture of violence, because that's simply not true. The vast vast VAST majority of Muslims are wonderful, wonderful people, and the way they practice their religion is nothing but peaceful. But for some fanatics Islam IS, in their minds, "a culture of violence" which is why they're so dangerous. They think they are in the moral right, and that their God supports their actions. I don't think it's necessarily Islamophobic to worry about that, or to even mention it. There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, and the majority are great people, but that doesn't change the fact that the ones who are bad are REALLY friggin' bad.

A better example of Christian fanaticism would be the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church, or when abortion clinics are targeted and bombed by Christian zealots, which is just as serious a problem, at least in America, imo.

 

[Cyberfiend]

Or when folks burned mosques in Sweden a few days ago.

Regarding the above quote I'm thinking we're gonna see a lot of crimes like this in the future. White guilt only goes so far, there will be a point where most everyone will rise up and realise their attempts at tolerance is perceived as weakness by the people (immigrants and certain minorities) they're being tolerant towards. Unfortunately, this also entails that the non-extremist people of those minorities will suffer too. I wonder if the higher EU officials (since this is mostly a European problem) realise this or if they even care.

With the far right gaining momentum pretty much everywhere in Europe, I think it's safe to assume that there will be ongoing conflict if something doesn't change soon.

 

[Sander]

Yes, IS and the like are motivated by their interpretation of Islam. The IRA was motivated by their interpretation of Catholicism. Breivik was motivated by his interpretation of European culture/traditionalism. The fact that they have interpretations doesn't reflect on the larger group of any of them.

I mean look at what you did there -- you were all nuanced about the IRA and Breivik, looking for deeper meaning and real motivations, careful not to treat them as an indictment of their supergroups. But that's not what's happening in the discourse surrounding Islam among large portions of European society. All the nuance goes out the window, because we can treat Islam as "other" -- scary, different, an invading force, an evil corruption etc etc etc.

Regarding the above quote I'm thinking we're gonna see a lot of crimes like this in the future. White guilt only goes so far, there will be a point where most everyone will rise up and realise their attempts at tolerance is perceived as weakness by the people (immigrants and certain minorities) they're being tolerant towards. Unfortunately, this also entails that the non-extremist people of those minorities will suffer too.

"Unfortunately?" That's fucking horrendous. As is the attitude that "attempts at tolerance" are "perceived as weakness" -- that's not at all what's happening. Terrorists aren't attacking people because they think they're weak, they're attacking people because they hate what they're doing or what they represent. Being tolerant isn't causing this, and the implication (that we should just be intolerant) only leads to escalation, not a solution. In what world does further marginalizing and demonizing a large group of people lead to less violent action?

 

[Cyberfiend]

Again, the IRA are motivated primarily by their belief in a "free Ireland". Their Catholicism is just another, but much smaller, factor. The reason they're against the Protestant North is because of its roots with the Church of England and Britain. Breivik was only interested in "defending European culture", otherwise his relationship with God, Jesus and the Church is barely a factor at all. The reason I mention them at all with any level of nuance is because you used them as an example, and I was simply trying to explain why nobody calls them Christian fanatics - it's because they're not. Westborro Baptist Church = an example of a Christian fanatic. Breivik = and example of neo-nationist extremism. There's no real point of comparison between the people you brought up, and the perpetrators of the 12 killed Satirists.

The reason the attack on the French journal has been dubbed an "islamist attack" is because the motives were explicitly religious. I'm sure there is nuance there (e.g: an general anti-European sentiment) but the main reason they attacked was because they believed that their religion was being insulted. It's not about insinuating Islam is a scary other, it's literally describing what happened, and why! If I was trying to imply this attack means ALL muslims are terrible, then I would be definitely be an Islamophobe! But I'm not, nobody here is doing that. These poor people were slaughtered because of fanatical Islam getting their knickers in a twist over a bunch of cartoons. It's not Islamophobic to tell it as it is.

 

[oxidize]

Or when folks burned mosques in Sweden a few days ago.

Regarding the above quote I'm thinking we're gonna see a lot of crimes like this in the future. White guilt only goes so far, there will be a point where most everyone will rise up and realise their attempts at tolerance is perceived as weakness by the people (immigrants and certain minorities) they're being tolerant towards. Unfortunately, this also entails that the non-extremist people of those minorities will suffer too. I wonder if the higher EU officials (since this is mostly a European problem) realise this or if they even care.

With the far right gaining momentum pretty much everywhere in Europe, I think it's safe to assume that there will be ongoing conflict if something doesn't change soon.

I wanted to say that I agree with that, and then I posted a video in which British politician Paul Weston talks about potential future civil war in Britain between Muslims and non-Muslims but Sander accused me of spreading a fascist propaganda(LOL) and deleted it... Unbelievable.
Care to explain what was fascist in that video, Sander?

 

[alec]

"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." (The Holy Qu'ran, 8:49)

Unfortunately for all those pro-multiculturalists who will have to say and write the word 'islamophobe' a lot the next coming days, the three French citizens who caused this atrocity against freedom of speech and religious criticism are indeed muslims. Again. Muslims are also the main players in the list of ongoing armed conflicts in the world today. And that trend has been going on for quite some time actually. No phobia here, Sander, just looking at lists and stating the obvious.

So, yes: muslims.

No one ever expects christians to do a thing like that - killing people with a sense of humour - anno 2015. And no one expects jews to do something like that either. In fact, you never hear about jews or christians killing innocent civilians for having a sense of humour in the name of their god. Jews are great comedians and so are christians. And when you mock their religion or call it into question, they don't go about calling you 'christophobe' or 'judeophobe' ad nauseam. I suppose that's because their scholars and intellectual elite know that criticizing something isn't the same thing as being afraid of it. In fact, it turns out that the act of criticizing something isn't a phobia at all! And there's more: the world already has a word for someone who questions religion! I'm not kidding, it's called 'a religious critic'.

As long as there are people like Sander around, who know how annoying it is to have to hear you're an islamophobe just because you question someone's holy writings or the actions of an ever-growing portion of fundamentalist muslims, there can be no free and honest debate about a tragedy like this.

Islam has a problem and it has everything to do with their dogmatic writings. They are not compatible with Western society.

(Am not revisiting this thread. )

 

[Akratus]

It's awful. I feel terrible for the people killed and injured, and their families. It's a terror attack on the freedom of the press, aimed at shutting up critical voices. Horrible. I hope they catch whoever did this.

@Akratus: You basically just produced a bunch of islamophobic arguments, and then said "but this argument is not about that so let's not talk about it."

Oh I'll talk about it. I just realize that people like you come in an judge people for being critical of something your far-leftie mind gets brownie points for protecting.

Yes, I'm criticizing the religion. Not the people, not the communities, but the violence inherent in the religion.

Open up the Quran, read about what it says what one should do to infidels, and then come back to me and say again that mentioning the mere idea of violence inherent in islam is so wrong.

By the way I'm not anti-islam, I'm anti-religion.

You basically just produced a bunch of islamophobic arguments

lol

Feels good to be the one feeling (not rightiousindignation but the other thing, whater) instead.

Hmm

So good

 

[MutantScalper]

And when you mock their religion or call it into question, they don't go about calling you 'christophobe' or 'judeophobe' ad nauseam.

I doubt you've actually criticised for example Christianity to the faces of strict Christians. Unfortunately I have met such folks and they will attack you even without you criticising them.

 

[Sander]

I wanted to say that I agree with that, and then I posted a video in which British politician Paul Weston talks about potential future civil war in Britain between Muslims and non-Muslims but Sander accused me of spreading a fascist propaganda(LOL) and deleted it... Unbelievable.
Care to explain what was fascist in that video, Sander?

If you can't see what's wrong with that video, trying to explain won't have any use.

Unfortunately for all those pro-multiculturalists who will have to say and write the word 'islamophobe' a lot the next coming days, the three French citizens who caused this atrocity against freedom of speech and religious criticism are indeed muslims. Again.

This, right here, is the attitude problem. It is not "Christians. Again." when the IRA bombs something. It is not "Conservatives. Again." when Anders Breivik commits the most violent terrorist act in Europe in years. It is not "Christians. Again." when the USA starts a war.

Muslims extremists committed a terrorist attack. This is not and should never be a reason to attack an entire faith of 1.6 billion people. It is a reason to attack those specific extremists.

Open up the Quran, read about what it says what one should do to infidels, and then come back to me and say again that mentioning the mere idea of violence inherent in islam is so wrong.

A religion is a lot more than its text -- a text which is full of contradictions and open to interpretation. This is a mistake the New Atheists make all the damn time.

 

[Crni Vuk]

No one ever expects christians to do a thing like that - killing people with a sense of humour - anno 2015. And no one expects jews to do something like that either. In fact, you never hear about jews or christians killing innocent civilians for having a sense of humour in the name of their god

Doesn't mean that it never happen though.

There have been in Germany 3 neo-nazis (Beate Z., Uwe Mundlos und Uwe Böhnhardt) killing at least 9 small businessman of immigrant minorities 1 police officer and harming 22 people with a pipebomb from the 1990s to 2011, they became known as a terror-cell of Jena. Many believe this group managed only to stay hidden for such a long time because of the support from local authorities and because no one ever got the idea that all of the victims could have been killed by the same group. One might say systematic.

Since 1990 according to Amadeu Antonoio at least 183 people have been vicitms because of Neo-Nazis attacks in Germany. And there are quite a few locations in Germany where Neo-Nazis educate young people and literaly controll whole areas, terrorizing the local population, literaly everyone who doesn't agree with their view. Like the town of Halle.

Yet, no one got the idea to call them really some politicaly motivated murder or blaming the whole right wing/coservative movement for it. There wasn't even a serious discussion to ban the extrem right-wing NPD party in Germany.

 

[Cyberfiend]

Just a reminder that the attackers have still yet to be caught.

 

[Cyberfiend]

""This is a difficult moment for France," Hollande told reporters. "We have prevented several attacks. We knew that we were still under threat because we are a country that cherishes freedom."

Reminder that this is not the first time something like this has been attempted in France. this is NOT an isolated incident.