The aspect of Fallout 3 that i liked better then New Vegas

[Brother None]

Walpknut, I'm not going to bother reading your posts if you don't bother spelling properly. The request to spell properly is, in fact, in our rules, so please do so. This isn't a chatroom.

Well considering each citizen that visits the Strip has at least 2000 caps on them and pretty much always end up losing everything it seems like enough

But you're skipping a step here. Where are these citizens coming from? Why are they willing to take this dangerous trip? NCR's strict policies were already proving unsustainable under Tandi in Fallout 2, so why don't they just go to New Reno instead? Why do we assume NCR has an army of people who can freely spend 40 times a soldier's wage on gambling? The game is telling you things and you are accepting them without questioning them. Again, by that "oh that's alright then" method, Fallout 3 becomes a lot easier to accept to. An explanation is not the same as a satisfying explanation.

They get power from Hoover Dam since they have a deal worked out with the NCR.

You mean the power grid whose structure we are to assume didn't degrade too much over 200 years of zero maintenance? Right.

Military bases have a lot of ammunition.

Not enough to shell anyone who comes close. Think about it. They enjoy blowing up anyone who comes close. How does this make sense? How is it sustainable? It isn't. Saying "people learn to stay away" would work if we didn't already see people are desperate enough to try and run by house's robots. So why wouldn't they dare? It's just not sustainable, and it is easily replaced by more reasonable defenses (minefield, guns), the only reason they use only explosives is because they're a parody faction. How is that not suspending logic for the lulz?

The only things that seem out of place or unrealistic are some of the buildings still standing and the Legion, and the Legion might be goofy but it's still something that some crazy guy might come up with so it's not that unreasonable.

And no, building towns around nuclear bombs cannot be rationalized.

It can be rationalized just as well as the Legion can.

And really, the only things? Not a log cabin still standing after 200 years? Not an electrical grid that hasn't degraded after 200 years? Not the idea of a town that has a sauna available while a few steps to the south a town's only raison d'etre is that they have some waterworks close by?

I'm not saying this will bother everyone. I'm saying this is a stack of stuff asking us to suspend our disbelief. Is it better than Fallout 3? Yes, in that it at least tries to give an explanation for things. And yes, in that it doesn't contain stuff that CAN'T be explained, like the idea of the need of water purification for radiation or the fact that the purification plant IS AT THE END OF THE RIVER.

Does that mean we should praise New Vegas for its consistent aesthetic and logic? C'mon now. Let's not praise something just for being better at it than Fallout 3, that's too low a standard to hold it to.

 

[Walpknut]

If you did not read my post hwo do you know its misspelled? I only commit a couple of very light typos in the last one.

Also a lto of the wood cabins you find are cheaply patched up with scrap metal and stuff, and soem saks in the mdidle of buttfuck nowhere are not a sing of inconsistency, The electircal grid, newer buildigns and etc are obviosuly recent thigns, build, repaired and maintained by the peopel that live there, they had the Quarry before the Deathclaws invaded, and you can help them regain control of it by killing the beasts, you are writing off the Legion with "silly" without even elaborating on how a society that adopts charactersitics from older cultures being lead by a megalomanaic is so out of place in the Fallout universe other than because they look silly.

 

[Courier]

But you're skipping a step here. Where are these citizens coming from? Why are they willing to take this dangerous trip? NCR's strict policies were already proving unsustainable under Tandi in Fallout 2, so why don't they just go to New Reno instead? Why do we assume NCR has an army of people who can freely spend 40 times a soldier's wage on gambling? The game is telling you things and you are accepting them without questioning them. Again, by that "oh that's alright then" method, Fallout 3 becomes a lot easier to accept to. An explanation is not the same as a satisfying explanation.

I'm not saying they're good explanations I'm just saying that at least the game has them, and some of them are sort of plausible if you suspend disbelief. Fallout 3 failed to provide any explanations at all for most things.

You mean the power grid whose structure we are too assume didn't degrade too much over 200 years of zero maintenance? Right.

I thought it was mentioned even in the opening intro that it was in bad condition but the NCR managed to restore it to working order after a while, which is not impossible. NCR might not have rebuilt to the level of modern society but they are getting there, they have quarries and working trains to transfer the concrete so it's clear that they're at least in a better situation than some modern third world countries.

It's not like they had to rebuild the dam from scratch, they just had to repair what had decayed in the past 200 or so years.

Not enough to shell anyone who comes close. Think about it. They enjoy blowing up anyone who comes close. How does this make sense? How is it sustainable? It isn't. Saying "people learn to stay away" would work if we didn't already see people are desperate enough to try and run by house's robots. So why wouldn't they dare? It's just not sustainable, and it is easily replaced by more reasonable defenses (minefield, guns), the only reason they use only explosives is because they're a parody faction. How is that not suspending logic for the lulz?

People might be desperate to run past House's robots, but that's because they wanted to make a fortune on the Strip and they already knew what was there. For all they knew there was nothing of value at Nellis and it was only a bunch of crazy tribals. They knew that even if they avoided the artillery they'd just get shot when they reached the gate.

It can be rationalized just as well as the Legion can.

Building a town around a dangerous nuclear weapon and dressing up in a manner that resembles a way people dressed in the past are not on the same levels of irrationality.

[/i]

 

[Walpknut]

The Bald guy at Hoover Dam actualy tells you how when they got there there was only one generator working, and that through the years they have managed to make three work, and that it is still a work in progress.

Edit: Also you can rationalize how the FEV works just as well as rationalizing how the world of FO3 works. That's a very strawman argument.

 

[Brother None]

FEV holds to verisimilitude, much like the atomic bomb. Roman cosplaying does not. Buildings not degrading like they would in the real world also does not.

I'm not saying they're good explanations I'm just saying that at least the game has them, and some of them are sort of plausible if you suspend disbelief. Fallout 3 failed to provide any explanations at all for most things.

Yes, and I acknowledged as much at the end of my post, which I'm guessing with your machine gun speed replying you read over? What's the hurry? This isn't a race.

Anyway, I recognized that difference, I'm just saying that doesn't make Vegas a shining example of consistency. It just makes it better at it than Fallout 3. That's not a very high standard. They're both inconsistent, as is Fallout 2. Where you want to rank them all in inconsistency is another matter.

the NCR managed to restore it

I like how you seem to think that the NCR being used as a magical deus ex machina to explain everything away is a good example of consistency.

For all they knew there was nothing of value at Nellis and it was only a bunch of crazy tribals.

There sure are enough factions interested in it for that not to be true.

Also, take a step back here and consider this: even with all the explanations you can offer for them shelling approaching enemies, can you honestly say that this is the superior approach? That it wouldn't make more sense to have them deal with intruders in more sustainable ways? That the fact that they shell them instead is done because Obsidian thought it was cool, the same motivation for many things in Fallout 3 (and for the Romans in New Vegas)? And necessarily, it is a tradeoff for consistency and logic.

Building a town around a dangerous nuclear weapon and dressing up in a manner that resembles a way people dressed in the past are not on the same levels of irrationality

Why not? Fallout 3 offers a cult that sustains this, which is both a homage to a post-apocalyptic sci-fi classic (Beneat the Planet of the Apes) and an explanation for their actions. Is it irrational? Yes. Do humans act irrational at times? Also yes. Is it stupid? Yes.

In the end, the designer motivations are similar. They do things because they think they're cool. JE Sawyer loves Romans so he added in Romans. Bethesda thought giant robots and a bomb around a nuclear bomb were cool so they added that. None of them are consistent with the existing setting, so they have to be shoe-horned in and explained away. That is the very source of inconsistency.

 

[Walpknut]

So wearing leather armor that looks like ROman armor is compeltely imposible, but a virus that turns people into The Hulk by them bathing on it is not, you still do not give any explanation for why the don't fit in the Fallout universe, all I read is "silly, they are ther just to look cool, they are silly again".

The people interested in Nellis are The NCR (busy with otehr matters, like their weakening hold of the region) and the Legion (who are on the other side of the map) there are BOS corpses in the way to Nellis, suggesting past expeditions. They only attack peopel who approach and after the 00 person is blown up by a howitzer you think people just would stop trying. Liek with the Glow.

The NCR is not a magic Deus Ex Machina as you say, thats just reducing the argument to ntohing just to not give any counter argument, the NCR are a strogn enough faction that has developed tecnologicaly and socialy durign the coruse of the games, they had energy fields in their city in FO2, they going to the Dam and spending years rebuilding it is not a deus ex machina, because if it is you can just call everythign a deus ex machina then. Strawman arguments.

 

[Lexx]

They get power from Hoover Dam since they have a deal worked out with the NCR.

You mean the power grid whose structure we are to assume didn't degrade too much over 200 years of zero maintenance? Right.

The power grid that doesn't even exist. I didn't realized it first, but at one point at Helios One, I saw that none of the power stations there are connected to anything else-- the cables are all broken. And this not only at Helios One, but also Hoover Dam and every other place in the game world. There is not one single working connection. :p

This is super nitpicking, I know. And I know it wouldn't have been worth the time to spend, trying to fix this. But I still find it funny and worth to note. :>

 

[Courier]

Unless the power lines are underground?

 

[Lexx]

If that would be the case, they wouldn't have so many overground lines-- And don't tell me the people started to build underground lines after the war.

 

[Courier]

They can't have overground and underground lines? I'm pretty sure that's what they do now.

Edit: And to be honest I didn't notice that many above ground lines to begin with. Where were they?

Edit: The LADWP is working on converting above ground power lines to underground power lines in that area, I'm guessing they probably had a lot done by 2077.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Department_of_Water_and_Power

 

[brfritos]

They get power from Hoover Dam since they have a deal worked out with the NCR.

You mean the power grid whose structure we are to assume didn't degrade too much over 200 years of zero maintenance? Right.

The power grid that doesn't even exist. I didn't realized it first, but at one point at Helios One, I saw that none of the power stations there are connected to anything else-- the cables are all broken. And this not only at Helios One, but also Hoover Dam and every other place in the game world. There is not one single working connection. :p

This is super nitpicking, I know. And I know it wouldn't have been worth the time to spend, trying to fix this. But I still find it funny and worth to note. :>

Actually the lines are underground AND also is explained in the game.
Problem is, an NCR tropper patrolling Eldorado Sub-Station is who give you this information. Worst yet, the conversation behave like most of the NPCs in the game, is completelly random (you can't talk to the guy, but at one moment he explains for another soldier how the energy is distributed).

I made this critic thousands of times before, but I still don't accept like the world is represented in FO3 and FNV regarding the infra-structure, houses, weapons, etc.
Common, 200 years after a nuclear holocaust and buildings are still standing? Concrete doesn't work that way.

If we humans disappear from the Earth right now, the projections are that nature would reclaim most of our cities in 5 years.
And in one century most traces that one day we covered the planet would being vanished.

It's a game, I know, but...

 

[Lexx]

The problem is the timeline. And the worst is, Bethesda will never go back in time, only further into the future (like they have stated). That means, the whole stuff will make less and less sense in future Fallout titles.

About the underground lines: Yes, I've never heard anything about it in the game. Good to know that they thought of that then, even though it's just a damn random npc float.

 

[Crni Vuk]

So wearing leather armor that looks like ROman armor is compeltely imposible,

It is much much more then just that ... and by the way. BN is pretty much right with what he says.

 

[Walpknut]

THen elaborate on how the Legion require you to suspend yoru disbalief more than the FEV, or the Khans, etc?

 

[Crni Vuk]

THen elaborate on how the Legion require you to suspend yoru disbalief more than the FEV, or the Khans, etc?

As you wish. But I have the feeling you will disagree.

(...) Meanwhile, Caesar's Legion goes way too far in its adopting of a Roman identity. Using a singular and unique identity to rally under is a staple of post-apocalyptic writing, but the problem is it was never seen in Fallout other than in minor roles, such as the Brotherhood of Steel using knight-like titles or raider groups calling themselves the Khans. Caesar's Legion mints money, dresses up like Romans, and properly pronounces Latin terms (which makes less sense than if they misappropriated the identity). The net effect is for them to come across as even more cartoonish than their evil already made them. It is an equivalent of the Brotherhood of Steel running around calling one another ser and challenging each other to duels on brahmin back with sword and lance.

It's odd, particularly because Obsidian introduces plenty of factions that work well enough in the Fallout setting. Despite their silly setup, the Boomers work setting-wise as a kind of homage to Mad Max. The Powder Gangers are certainly believable. And even the Kings work, mostly because they do right what Caesar's Legion does not: their leader is actually believable as someone people would follow and listen to, and their setup is much more appropriate to the setting, particularly in their misunderstanding of history. Caesar's Legion is at least adequately explained in the game itself, but I'm left wondering why the choice of Roman cosplayers was considered a good idea by the designers in the first place. With some better writing and a more subtle approach, it might have worked, but I feel it is lacking in both, in this game.

Fallout: New Vegas Review - Page 4 of 5

 

[Walpknut]

It's true they lack an in-depth exploration in the game, but you only say "they are too silly even tought the fallout settign has similar thigns before" elaborate....

 

[Crni Vuk]

huh ? Putting words in to my mouth much ? All I said is that there is more to it then just "leather armor trying to imitate Roman gear" and that I agree with BN. No where did I compared them with other factions. And to say that. I found the Khans in Vegas silly as well. Obsidian if it ever gets a chance to do another Fallout game (which I hope) should try to back up a bit from this over the top references to ancient cultures. Raider gangs calling them self Khans or Arthur's Knights the Hercules connection what ever. I don't care. Cool names. Sure. But no reason to dress up and act like you are part of those ancient cultures. As in BNs review. You have certain titles with the Brotherhood for example. But you don't see them acting like medieval knights.

 

[Walpknut]

Putting words in your mouth? l I said "you said it" because its the text you are using to back yoru counter argument.
SO because other didn't do it they make no sense? what sense does that make? So because the already existing factiosn did soemthing any future one can't do anything beyond that? The Legion are explained, their origins are told, just like any other faction, they go for a different kind of pre war society glory to base their society around, just like the Kings, the NCR, The BoS etc.
Then why do people with power armors and pre war military background go with medieval titles? The Khans call thmeselves the Khans but they don't go using Mongol inspired titles.

 

[Crni Vuk]

well. My understanding of English is not the best. But I don't have the feeling that (...)"they are too silly even tought the fallout settign has similar thigns before" is actually the meaning of the review. - The difference is if we compare the factions inside of Vegas or if we compare Vegas with F1 and F2 and there you simply had no faction which was that much over the top in their references like the Legion.

It is one thing to have a faction wear some names but another to build it as whole "homage" to it. Honestly the kings are here not much of a difference to Caesar's Legion and you are correct in that aspect. But the Kings fit a tons better in it by the in game explanation and their actually better written leader which makes it easier to follow his agenda. This part comes probably down to "taste".

The part you are wrong with is ... So because the already existing factions did something any future one can't do anything beyond that? because this is a rather new concept as no Fallout faction of the past has put so much emphasis on why they choose their names or reference like Vegas did either with the Legion, Kings or Kahn's. Remember. In F1 they have been rather a "raider faction" then anything else. And the Slavers in F2 have been that. Slavers. No roman/German(barbarian) wanna-be group which felt them self in spirit close to some ancient culture.

 

[Walpknut]

The NCR and the Enclave are also very influenced by a specific pre war society, and they dress and act and have titles based on them, The Legion was founded by a guy that didn't like USA pre war society and tought the Romans were betetr so he mixed different aspects of various eras of the ROman empire and slowly made tribes that he and his initial group conquered, I don't see a problem there.... probably more in-depth exploration of the Faction would have helped.