The Fallout 3 That Should Have Been!

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by ncr_insurgent, May 28, 2014.

  1. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Antediluvian as Feck

    Nov 26, 2007
    Of course they do; Wasteland 2 sold out in a month... and kept selling.

    FO3 sucked because it's core premise is polar opposite to its identified branding; and [additionally] because it's core gameplay is a complete mutation from the established series reputation.

    Ask yourself this... Would a numbered sequel to any modern (and relatively famous) shooter be just fine for having a spot on perfect continuation of the story ~and a really good one... yet having no shooter mechanics in it? Gears of War as a collectible card game like Magic the Gathering? How about a Metal Gear Solid sequel done with all the trapping of a top notch sequel ~except it was a Super Mario Brothers clone with grenades instead of fireballs, and medkits & drugs instead of mushrooms and stars.

    Now ask yourself, 'What if when those weird sequels came out, that the modern trends in gaming DEMANDED ~that~ as the epitome of acceptable gaming?'
    Starting to see why it's just not acceptable, or thought appropriate? Why it would have been better if they had left it alone, and not touched it?

    They did great selling FO3, but what they sold has only the name and mascot of the Fallout series. Like selling vanilla icecream as Butterscotch to people that never had either of those. You don't think that people that knew what Butterscotch was would scoff and never accept it as authentic? Laugh at it and be saddened that unfortunately the company owns the rights and prevents anyone else from making Butterscotch and disproving their fraudulent attempt at it?

    Indeed... doing it right would not sell as well to the masses; but it's not supposed to sell to the masses. If a company was making a flight simulator... they should make it such that the masses would flock to it? Or should they make accurately simulate flying various aircraft? Doing it right ensures a limited audience... Doing it wrong is ~Afterburner~ :lol: (But of course Afterburner would sell better to "everyone".)

    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
  2. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    The big problem of fo3 isn't about fps or isometric, it's about rpg or non-rpg.
    what makes fo3 RPG? quest? dungeon?

    the quest of fo3? it's not a quest at all.
    there is no problem to solve but just storys waiting for read like JRPGs but worse.
    because at least at JRPGs, there are no quest markers and auto journals that removes difficulties from game. and the stories are completely seperated each other.
    there is no problem to solve, nothing to think, nothink to concern and nothing to do for player. what left for fo3? shooting enemy and reading story. but it is also for FPSs.

    what about dungeons? it's just bunch of meaningless rooms with meaningless items.
    nothing to explore, no puzzles to be solve and nothing to search because nothing is hidden.

    maybe, Fallout series isn't the best RPG.
    but at least, Fallouts are good quest based RPGs.
    and sequel is nothing but a story reading FPS?
    that is a horrible joke for Fallout fans.
  3. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Again with the assertion that change is the heart of the problem, Gizmo? No, change is not why FO3 sucked. It didn't suck because it was "different" from the previous Fallout games. It didn't suck because it deviated from the "established" formula. It sucked because of objectively identifiable reasons independent of changing anything.
    The engine being buggy was not an issue with change.
    The combat being poorly designed was not an issue with change.
    The ghastly and cringe-worthy writing was not an issue with change.

    It's not an issue of changing from prequel to sequel, it's an entirely separate matter of it just having BEEN bad on its own. A great long list of reasons that has been covered time and time again already.

    ANYWAY..... can we get back to writing up "what could have been" ideas for the game that WOULD have made it great? Keeping in mind that these ARE CHANGES, yet changes that would have been great, cause change isn't the cause of the problem..... =P
  4. coldroll

    coldroll Fuck Bethesda

    Jul 4, 2012
    Your right it isn't up the publisher to decide what you want, it's up the the player audience to decide that. And most gamers nowadays don't like isometric roleplaying games anymore. Back when Fallout 3 first came out many reviewers were praising it for not being an isometric roleplaying game and instead being a first person game. While I enjoy isometric games like Fallout 1 and 2 the average gamer doesn't, with the exception of Wasteland 2 I haven't seen any isometric games released in the past nine years. It's more of a niche category that a select few still enjoy, if you were to ask almost any young gamer if they prefer isometric games to first person games most gamers would say the latter. You could also go on almost any gaming forum besides this one and find gamers hating on isometric turn based role playing games. Such as this thread:
  5. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    And you're wrong that it's up to the gamer audience to decide what we get. It's up to the developer. The developer (in the olden days, this was much simpler of a category as "the programmers", but since the process has evolved and grown so much, those directly responsible for the creation of the game are far larger groups) is the artist, and it's the artist who gets to decide what their brush may stroke, not the audience. The audience doesn't know what they want, it's up to the artist to give it to them. Developers OR producers who create games on the whims of the masses don't create art, they just create products on demand, and that's all. Popularity doesn't make a game good, just popular. Following a trend doesn't guarantee that a game will do well, just that it will more than likely get bought up by those familiar with what's being copied- see the Modern Warfare series (and most CODs since 2008, for that matter) replicating the nuke scene and never matching up to it.

    Right now, there's a paltry few developers with the balls to do their own thing, despite what's popular, with the cojones to create what they want, despite the market trends, with the guts to perform their art as they see fit, despite what is likely to sell well, and that's a tragedy. That doesn't mean caving in and just obeying those trends is what's proper. It just means that's sadly what is more than likely to be done, nowadays.
  6. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Antediluvian as Feck

    Nov 26, 2007
    So? (Really what does that matter?)

    Well... the Witcher comes to mind, and I've seen several others... some even sequels of late 90's games; like Disciples 3 came out in 2009 ~and it's sequel/expansion that followed in 2011. The King's Bounty games as well; those came out basically every year since 2010.

    *The average gamer isn't suposed to like Fallout; though they are welcome, they should be the last thing used as a design target. They won't appreciate it; filet mignon to a McDonalds crowd. And yet that's exactly what Betheasda did with it; and of course it worked... but why would any on Earth assume that the result justifies it? (Or ~gracious~ that it's actually an improvement for its own good.) I think it's an ingrained need (on the part of proponents) to be part of a majority, and swear they are right because there's so many of them. :(

    This is true ~but so what (really). All this means is that you don't make a Fallout game, you make something else; entirely; or as a spin off that suits the FPS fad. You can't have a niche gaming market if they forcibly stop making the niche titles; especially when they BUY the really cool niche titles to exploit their ideas and gut them to make a mainstream product of it.

    They have damaged its reputation by making it salable to the mainstream FPS/simulator audience that simply doesn't know any better. It's like a burglar that throws away a platinum watch because it's not real gold.

    Bull. There is a great [HUGE] distinction between someone seeing a random work of art and liking it enough to buy ~and someone commissioning a work, or buying on reputation. You give them exactly what they want to the best of your ability ~unless they expressly want you to choose ~~and even then you still choose something they will want. The commercial artist is not the arrogant actor playing 'The artiste' for the gallery show. They may choose to create macaroni art, but if they do so arbitrarily on whim, then it is invariably the wrong choice. It is not a real choice for the artist ~not unless they are a jerk or an idiot.

    ** If A new company acquired Halo, and did Halo5 (6?) entirely Chibi style ~because their artist wanted to... that would be accepted as fitting, correct, and justified? Follows the point that the audience doesn't really know what's good for them(?); or don't really know what they want?

    Hell no!

    ** The problem I sense, is that many would seem to have no problems with this being done the other way around. What if Halo had started out with that style as a core aspect of the game?

    A moment's thought gives most people their answer... but then ask, "Why is that?"...and next ask, "Why is that any different?".
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2014
  7. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    One seems to forget that TB & RT games, isometric & 1st person games, co-existed for decades and still are.

    Also, i find utterly ridiculous to say that the audience as a whole want X.
    The thing is that player A wants X, player B wants Y and player C wants Z.
    There are billions of players A, billions of players B & billions of players C.
    The need of games like X, of games like Y, of games like Z are equal.
    By making all the games like X, you end up frustrating players B & C, that have nothing to play anymore.
    Beside that, players A don't have the time to play all X games.
    If you make all the games like X, you will end up making many X games that will never be played, or considered different enough than other X games. You may give it whatever color you want, it will always be an X game. You better make games like Y & Z if you want to reach a different audience.

    Currently, games X are FPS, in first person perspective, with a few RPG elements, and a big open world with wide open sandbox features, and a shallow writting. You have to look toward indies if you are sick of games X. Because even if you can enjoy a game X sometimes, you can't spend on your playing time on the very same thing. Currently, i see GTA, new gen Fallout, TES, Saints Row, Batman, Gothic, Risen, Witcher 3, as more or less the same thing on a different color. Even if you liked some of them, if get easily boring after a while, mainly because of the high level of generic/unecessary locations. I enjoyed FoNV and i think i'll enjoy Witcher 3, but it won't be thanks to the gameplay, but despite it. And enjoying isn't the same thing as loving. (i also play some parts of FoNV mixed with other games. As soon as i get too bored, i switch to an other game)

    On the same level, i like fighting games like Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter or Tekken, but i can't spend all my time playing those, and don't feel the need in trying too many other fighting games as i feel they will be more or less the same.
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014
  8. coldroll

    coldroll Fuck Bethesda

    Jul 4, 2012
    I think we should get back on topic or this thread may be locked.
  9. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    That's how forum threads work, ESPECIALLY here in NMA. The worst things that happen when a topic deviates is that the posts deemed to have participated in the deviation are removed and placed in a new thread, and the rest of the thread is left completely intact. This is "bad" in the sense that the new thread just kinda exists and it seems a little bit sudden without any real introductory, but it's still a fully-fledged conversation that's been going on for x number of weeks/months/years, and of course the original topic, sans transplants, is basically untouched. Unlike other forums that I've been a part of, showing leveled disapproval here isn't met with a warning that results in a temp ban if you keep repeating it, it's simply understood as normal human conduct. Unlike other forums I've been to, going with the flow of the conversation isn't met with immediate mod intervention and more likely than not topic locking, it understands that conversations shift back and forth across different topics and it leaves them to do so as they see fit.

    I WOULD like to see the topic return to the original purpose of discussing a hypothetical Fallout 3 that could have been, with suggestions and changes to what we were given and so on. But not because of the threat of imminent locking, since that won't happen. I just liked the original premise that this topic suggested.
  10. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    Well most people here know that I would have liked to have seen Van Buren as the official Fallout 3. No discussion on that one.
    So instead I will see this thread as a "What would I do with a Fallout set on the East Coast' topic.

    First of all, I would like to go back to the way Fallout 1 and 2 depicted the size of the setting map, and how settlements would be like in general. (only handful of maps of interesting places)
    The game would probably be 3rd person again, with floating camera that can be set from different directions and angles.

    If it would use the Fallout 3/New Vegas model, only maps would made of set interesting places, and 'filler' would be as limited as reasonable possible. So no pointless streets and ruins everywhere you can't access anyway, or dime a dozen 'dungeons' that barely have any content.
    Maps would range from 'small' to the size of the Big MT map for example. Multiple smaller maps could be located in one specific piece of land or in a settlement, but again no pointless filler in between to make them one continuous location map unless it serves a purpose.

    The time period.
    Because of the distance from the Core Region and because this is a chance to do something new, the time period would be close to that of Fallout 1; before, during or directly after that time period.
    Larger settlements only just start to appear again in the wasteland, with some organized trade between them.
    This is also a period in which the East Coast factions start to take off to expand or consolidate their power and establish their own territories.

    Some Vaults have already opened but a number of them is still closed for the foreseeable future.

    Suggestions for locations:

    Washington DC. DC got hit hard, and I mean HARD. The Chinese wanted to make an example of the capitol of the United States, and leveled most of the city, leaving behind a large number of craters and crumbling ruins that are mostly devoid of life.
    Some ghouls and mutant wildlife tries to make a living here, and occasionally well equipped prospectors search the ruins for anything useful.

    Raven Rock. The so called 'second' Pentagon where the early stages of the global nuclear war was directed from until communication between most government/military installations seized.
    Perhaps still inhabited by some military hardliners.

    Mount Weather. Originally the shelter of the official elected government of the United States and their families and personnel. The Enclave, the shadow government within the government was only to happy to dispose of the now 'useless' elected officials (their voters were dead anyway) and used them for one of their Vault experiments decades earlier before the campaign starts.
    This place like so many Vaults has failed but there would still be interesting stuff here, this place was equipped with gear of civilian and military standard right up before the war.
    Perhaps it is still inhabited by the degenerate descendants of the US government, cannibalistic sub humans?

    Vault 106. As suggested by another poster here, the source of a lot of East Coast raiders as result of the Social Experiment that was performed here. Way to go Vault-Tec, creating problems for generations long after the scientists who planned it are dead.


    New York City/Manhattan (and all places included).



    Boston. Standing out amongst the ruins of the former city is the Institute, a self sufficient, sealed environment facility that is constructed on the former massachusetts institute of technology, being designed by some of the great minds that worked there as an alternative the the great underground Vaults and other bunkers.
    The Institute was home to the scientists, students, technicians and their families, meant to shelter them from the nuclear exchange and the after effects, and to serve as a post nuclear research and development facility where new sciences and technologies were to be developed to rebuild the world and preserve humanity's knowledge.

    However the Institute has failed at both accounts. For some time research and development continued after the nuclear war, the scientists and technicians working on various projects to aid humanity that over time took more ethical questionable turns as the work failed to produce successes.
    Instead of aiding humanity and rebuilding the world, the institute became a place that contained sinister secrets. Then the facility fell silent as the inhabitants started to leave or die off.

    A few residents remains, continuing their work that will one day 'save the world' while in the meantime keeping out any unwelcome wastelanders until the scientists are 'ready'.

    (first of all, sorry for re using an idea first proposed by Bethesda, but even though most of their ideas and execution of these are average to bad, occasionally even they come up with a good concept.
    Second, I am really trying to make this place NOT sound like the Big MT, but reading my text I feel I have failed at that. Still my take on the Institute is that it is not a copy of that research facility. The scientists and technicians at the Institute really sought to rebuild the world and civilization (cleaning up the environment and removing remaining toxins and radioactivity, developing new food sources and better medicines, re engineering plants and lifestock to survive in the new world, new kinds of security and protection methods, 'stronger humans' *) instead of building new kinds of weapons and other atrocities, but in the end still produced these as they became desperate to produce any kind of practical results)

    (* These 'stronger humans of course were androids. After the war the researchers at the Institute resurrected pre war android development with the intention on improving on the designs, creating practical androids that could assist humanity with rebuilding the world. Unlike Fallout 3 the researchers did not make much progress, they managed to improve the general design but mental wise the androids had the intelligence of a Mr Handy/Protectron and often time even less, making them useless and a drain on the Institute's limited resources.
    Attempts to overcome this problem ranged from 'networking' the android minds together to even scientists attempting to download their own consciousness into an android bdoy, but to limited avail.
    Production of the androids would have seized if it had not been for the reducing human population in the facility. Androids were now needed to maintain the facility and even take over the tasks that were normally done by humans (the Institute was designed to be run by humans and not robots, hence the android filler-ins), but in general androids are useless and sometimes even a hindrance or danger to wastelanders)

    Devens. Once the Federal Medical Center Devens. When the war took place the prison doors were opened and a number of the guards and prisoners left to find their families or take their chances outside.

    The head warden and a number of guards and prisoners decided to stay and when survivors from Boston and other nearby settlements came across the prison they were invited to join them.

    Over time the three groups; prison staff, prisoners, and the civilian refugees managed to coalesce into a new community that turned the prison into a settlement.
    There were of course a number of incidents during the early years, some convicts, guards and even civilians that committed theft, rape or murder, and those convicted of these were exiled to outside the walls.

    There was also a group of guards who felt that despite the end of the old world that the prisoners were still dangerous convicts and should be treated as such, basically using them as a work force and slave labor.
    This group left the prison but took weapons and supplies with them and eventually became the Judicators, a militant group that holds the believe that all the inhabitants of Devens or convicts or 'cons' and that it is their task to deal with them when they enter the wasteland, until the day comes that they can reclaim Devens and cleanse it.

    With the knowledge of the libraries of Devens and surviving experts such as doctors, engineers, technicians, etc, Devens has become one of the stronger outposts on the East Coast wasteland, having its own food, water, and security, the basics for a society, and electricity and advanced medical knowledge next to that.

    Their main threats are the Judicators and the occasional berserker android that comes from Boston.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2014
  11. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Well yeah, NATURALLY "what could've been" could have been Van Buren FO3. But the topic's just about taking what we got, and changing story elements in such a way that would have made it workable. A different engine would be sweet, but that's beyond a "suggested improvement", whereas the other story suggested COULD feasibly be patched or modded into the game, as opposed to being built from the ground up, from scratch.

    *COUGH* That would be me. =) That's what I always wanted to interpret the result of 106, because it reminded me a lot of the premise to Serenity, with the East Coast Raiders, non-organized groups of unreasonable rapist cannibal psychos, being the FO3 equivalent to Serenity's Reavers. Sadly, I knew it was never that deep within the actual game, and they had other plans for the Raiders that they simply never realized, but given that 106 was the ONLY Vault where they drew from the FO Bible and didn't bullshit their own terrible ideas, they could've done so much more with their material, especially when their "unrealized" Raiders could be tied to 106 just like the Reavers to Miranda.

    But as time goes on, the more opportunities I see for suggestions to present themselves.

    Paradise Falls:
    In my outline, I offered that Paradise Falls was the possible progenitor to the sweeping Slavery movement found in FO2 (since the timeline, as I'd tweak it, would have taken place hundreds of years earlier, WELL before FO2) and that the Slavers there would be a major faction that could be dealt with in the game. But with time, I've realized so much more that could be possible. Since Paradise Falls was a shopping mall before the war, it makes sense that the Slavers could have fortified it and made it their home, not unlike the Raiders who took over the Super Duper Mart, and it's the slavery trade itself that helped them stay sufficient when the "resources" of the mall dried up. They don't go raiding to steal more resources, they just capture people as slaves and sell them off to finance their sustainability. So naturally there would be a fragment of dissenting voices who see this is a short-term means of dealing with a long-term problem, although these voices wouldn't offer the Lone Wanderer the opportunity to have the entirety of Paradise Falls turn over a new leaf. No, that would be some childish notion of good vs evil as Bethesda would cook up. It would, at best, present a conflict that MIGHT be explored in ending tiles that Paradise Falls fell apart after a number of years, if those voices weren't quelled, or otherwise silenced. But as the progenitor tot he countrywide slavers guilds generations later, that obviously wouldn't be canon. But still an option to explore withing the game. In short, "helping" the slavers of Paradise Falls wouldn't amount to simply collecting more bodies for them to ship off to slave owners, but dealing with the politics of their own survival. Making alliances with groups that can work with them. "Dealing" with the dissent. And of course, collecting people to enslave.

    Rivet City:
    The unmarked quest regarding ousting council members would be a MUCH more involving task, and that could be explored with every member of the council. Dr. Li's removal from the facility would also be factored into the power struggle/vacuum, unlike how the actual game simply disregards her disappearance from the city. Most likely as a facet to the goal of recruiting major factions to help retake Project Purity, the player would have FAR more opportunity to play with who rules in Rivet City. I'd personally do away with "The Replicated Man" quest entirely, though, so there would be some other series of events to get rid of Harkness... assuming you wanted him replaced on the council, of course. Pinkerton's presence and his grudge towards the rest of the city would remain the same, though finding him would be more important than simply filling in Moira on how the city was really founded. Possibly, Pinkerton could return once Dr. Li makes her exodus- if convinced to, since his bitterness would most likely just compound his desire for isolation, though his strong willed nature would require equally strong willed council members to balance him out, otherwise he'd end up taking dictatorial control over Rivet City, another delicate matter to be handled by the player.

    As you can see, my suggestions for FO3 would transform it from some lackluster wasteland exploration simulator in a MATTER political dance, where the grey lines of morality really shine through. Making everyone happy when certain individuals have their own (usually justified) agendas is really tricky, but going the "bad" route is usually much easier, hence why you'd do that instead. Time sensitive events would necessitate players progressing with the story, but the importance of the coalition subplot would also necessitate their involvement with all of the locations in the Capitol Wasteland. You couldn't just ignore the Talon Company Mercs, or they'd demolish what semblance of peace the player could ever accomplish with their lengthy negotiations. You couldn't just ignore the "Regulator" Outcasts, because they'd inevitably clash with the Citadel "Regulators", also destroying progress that the player would have otherwise established. And it wouldn't just be some Yes Man or House NPC telling you what to do; like the original Fallout games, you'd just have to figure this out on your own, and it's most likely the ending slides that would tip you off to "what you missed". Ending Slides say that your best efforts at the happiest ending was foiled by the slavers of Paradise Falls rising to prominence and enslaving the whole region and occupying the water purifier anyway? Well then you'd know to try and "deal" with Paradise Falls the next time you play. Do that and the ending slides say that the strife between the coalition forces you gathered tore their alliance apart and within a few months/years things were far worse off than when you started the game? Well now you'll know that negotiating the power struggles with the coalition requires certain finessing. And so on and so on. After all, in FO1 there was no omniscient NPC that told you the crops needed their efficiency boosted and Tandi needed rescuing after a certain amount of time and the Radscorpions being dealt with was a MUST in order for Shady Sands to prosper in the end; the player just needed to figure this out on his/her own.

    As I mentioned elsewhere, I also LOVED the idea of making some kind of "hybrid" system with the shitty Gamebryo engine's first person exploration in a tiny, contiguous map by splitting up said map into multiple, smaller maps, and changing the Pipboy's map into something similar to the maps in the original games, with random encounters and days/weeks elapsing mostly through travel time, and all that jazz. As a consequence of all the NPCs being rebalanced, the player could recruit more than 1 at a time, and it would give particular significance to having a dog in your company, since it would be able to "sniff out" encounters before you ran into them, like a free boost to your Survival/Outdoorsman skill, but they'd be weak, so you'd better look out for them!

    So much potential lies in this game, if only the proper changes were made in the right places. It's really a shame that potential was never reached.
  12. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    Okay SnapSlav, me re-using your idea is an indication that I liked your suggestion.

    * Added Devens.
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2014
  13. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Hey, never said I took issue with you liking the suggestion. I DO take issue with you deliberately bastardizing my name, however. That's not cool.
  14. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    What!? Not sure if you were joking or not but I fixed it.

    It must have happened accidentally
  15. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Yes, I was totally serious. It appeared like it was deliberate, cause only my "name" out of the entire sentence was bolded, that's why I assumed it wasn't an accident, and why I wasn't joking. No worries though.
  16. 5545Trey

    5545Trey Underground Deviant

    Jun 25, 2014
    Every single member on this website should read this. You have won this forum.
  17. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Antediluvian as Feck

    Nov 26, 2007
    He's just repeating what I said back at me and telling me I was wrong when I said it, but that he's right when he says it. :roll:

    These are among the differences from the originals; and a big part of why it sucked.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2014
  18. 5545Trey

    5545Trey Underground Deviant

    Jun 25, 2014
    But at least we all agree that Fallout 3 was an overrated game.
  19. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    This person has a gift for seeing things not for how they are, but for how he wants them to be.

    Well, thank you. =) I just strive to make a point where it's needed, and to do my best that said point is always true.
  20. coldroll

    coldroll Fuck Bethesda

    Jul 4, 2012
    Agreed 100%!
    • [Like] [Like] x 1