The Game

[Gwydion]

Personally I didn't care about them making FOOS, as long as it would help bring us Fallout 3.

And it ended up helping to kill FO3 when IP moved critical team members from Van Buren to POS. Which, oddly enough, sounds very similar to what Rosh, et al predicted would happen.

 

[ScottE]

Thought I'd stop by and say hi to the gang.

I'm going to miss all of you guys so much and just can't find the words to describe how upset I am over the loss of so much great work and potential. This was a dream project and it has been shattered forever. We all stuck it out at Interplay because we believed in this game. I just wish upper management believed in it too. We all thought the fully working demo we made a year before shipping was enough to prove we could do this game. I guess it wasn't enough.

Let's hope another company out there realizes the great potential of such a veteran team of developers that are now suddenly available.

Everyone try to have a good holiday.

Sincerely, Scott Everts

 

[quietfanatic]

Actually, looking closer at the pictures, they aren't that amazing. The graphics are small, everything is sparse, and it's a bit blurry. Truth be told, it looks like a slightly-higher-res version of the type of crappy graphics you'd get back in 1997 or so.

-sniff-

WHICH IS EXACTALLY WHAT I WANTED!! Goddamnit all.

I love the retro fallout graphics of old, but can understand that games must get with the times in terms of technology. However, any future title must be close to the originals and value the quality of the role playing above stupid glossy effects.

 

[stephen_liwf]

Re: So....

Even claiming that turn based would be the priority in the rules, you're still going to have to fudge things like the enemy AI, the design of maps in the placement and number/difficulty of combatants, and so forth.

That make sense. I think it'll involve scope of action & AI response.

 

[Section8]

I'm going to get all OT on yo ass for a bit, with this whole discussion of rats. This is something I was ruminating on a while back.

A bit of diversity to AI

We all know that AI is one of the greatest challenges of game dev, but the general approach seems slightly misguided to me. Rather than aiming for realistic, the focus should be on interesting.

I'm going to start with my most common throwback, Chess. If a 21st century computer game designer sat down to make Chess v2, then chances are, it would wind up being utterly, utterly fucked.

Realistically, Pawns should be able to move in whatever direction they want, actually, all pieces should be able to move wherever they want. And the multiplayer sucks, because one player has to wait while the other thinks about their move. They should both be able to move simultaneously. While we're at it, let's get rid of those annoying squares, and the playing field should be 3D...blah...etc.

In this situation, the "developer" has completely missed the fact that it is the limitations of the game that make it interesting. Adding additional complexity doesn't necessarily improve anything, and this to me is the second biggest problem with the games industry.

Just because you have the memory/processing speed/bandwidth/resolution to add additional complexity, doesn't mean you have to.

The inherent problem here is that while a computer may be able to handle these massively complex systems, the human mind isn't really capable of considering these systems properly, and so most games tend to be reliant on the fact that something fun emerges from a somewhat intangible and ill-considered idea.

Ai is the biggest culprit in this sinful behaviour. Even it's definition is excessive and grandiose. I couldn't really give a flying fuck if it's intelligent or not, as long as it does interesting things within a finite system.

So how does this have any bearing on the discussion at hand? Why should it just be assumed that it is the appropriate behaviour for a small rodent to attack the player character? When is it appropriate?

And this is where it gets interesting. Consider critters that are drawn to blood, exposed flesh or even a death sense. Consider beyond this and allow the player exploit this sort of behaviour. That to me is where something like 20 rats can become a bit more interesting.

 

[Dan]

We all know that AI is one of the greatest challenges of game dev, but the general approach seems slightly misguided to me. Rather than aiming for realistic, the focus should be on interesting.

I agree, but think this can be further expanded into more aspects of game design.

When over realisim harms the gameplay or the fun, it shouldn't be applied.

 

[sakus]

Puuk, do you know what this means? From the Silverstyle forums by their lead programmer:

Well, I would like to write something positive regarding the FO3 progress into the next newsletter. So it depends on how things work out with Josh and Damien.

Ooooh I hope this will turn into the best xmas present I could ever wish for

 

[Briareus]

Rats (or any animal) weren't going to attack you if you were in power armor. 'Cause rats attacking a walking machine = DURR and ZZZZZZZ.

 

[kumquatq3]

When is SS next newsletter slated for?

Rats (or any animal) weren't going to attack you if you were in power armor. 'Cause rats attacking a walking machine = DURR and ZZZZZZZ.

Would you still get into random encounters with them? If so would they just flee or ignore you?

 

[Darque]

curious...

(edit: The dev quotes that is..... curious indeed....)

 

[MeatPoPsicKLe]

Seems to me you'd get the occasional 'crazy as a shithouse' variety rat that would eventually take off after you even in power armour. Which would probably be more of a nuisance than anything to pay attention to, eventually you'd step on it and end of rat.

 

[Section8]

"Variety Rat" I fucking love it!

 

[Rainstorm]

Let's hope another company out there realizes the great potential of such a veteran team of developers that are now suddenly available.

Everyone try to have a good holiday.

If all other companies fails to recognize how much talent there is/was within BIS I'd think that you'd all be better off not making games anyway....(and I'd say I'd be better off just selling my PC too....)
You have a good holiday too and the same goes for Puuk and the rest of the former BIS staff.(hoping you can)
I of course also wish the same for Feargus and those at his company and Josh.

 

[Nuts]

i just joined these forums as I read on Firingsquad.com about the pics. I still cant believe Black Isle was canned, and consequently Fallout 3 as well. Fallout 1 and 2 are both games I have very VERY good memories about, and Black Isle always read top of my list of respected game developers.

Just one word: SHIT!

 

[DarkUnderlord]

The funny thing about the Fallout 3 debate is that BiS' only chance to prove us wrong (Hardcore Fallout, TB only fans), just went down the toilet.

I'm confident the success of FO:BOS on the console will encourage Interplay to continue development of Fallout 3 though.

AHAHAHA! Got ya.

 

[Legshot]

The funny thing about the Fallout 3 debate is that BiS' only chance to prove us wrong (Hardcore Fallout, TB only fans), just went down the toilet.

I'm a hardcore fallout fan myself and for me the game is NOT ONLY ABOUT the trun based fighting. The game has so much more to love. The Story, the characters, the music the graphics the HUGE world. And it makes no sense in discussing tb against real time anyhow now that it's canned.

Besides that what's that about the fans not even believing the developers that a combination of tb and rt CAN in fact work? If anyone know than hell they do.

 

[Odin]

Legshot, don't try to discuss what you don't know..just a helpful tip!

 

[Crazed-One]

Why is it, that the types of games that have appealed to me in the past seem to all be fading away, this may be good as it allows me to remove myself from the computer more often and do things like excersise, and see friends and family more often. I remember the days when D&D used to be the mainstream and I was a Gamma World and Twilight 2000 fanatic, there just wasn't as much of a following for the genre at the time and they have faded away. I only recently threw away a truckload of old games including Wasteland and Fountain of Dreams, but all Black Isles stuff is being saved for replayability, FO,FO2,BG,BG2 ect.. (just in case )

Lets face it the bottom line is profits because after all it is business.
Everyone want to make a Starcraft or a Counterstrike or some console title that appeals to mostly the teen masses or adult masses (the Sims) To get an idea of what most people want, look at the 100 channels of crapola vs the 4 or 5 stations of real good stuff that not many people watch, believe it or not those are the people games are being made for, the same ones that when you watch some tv program and say to yourself who the heck watches this stuff, that is the consumer that has caused Interplay to drop this title because the profit margin we would bring in as consumers is just not worth the hassle to them.

Lets not kid ourselves the bottom line is plain old GREED no matter how you look at it, its what keeps our capitalistic, err I mean Democracy running, the politics and backstabbing of white collar business would make you dizzy. So much aggressive and passive aggressive behavior towards each other, little do most people know that we aren't in any way civilized nor humane. oops rambling...

Anyway, Thanks Black Isle and Former Black Isle and anyone else that brought me the best damn gaming since Wasteland.

Baldurs Gate 1 & 2 and Expansions
Icewind Dale and Expansions
Fallout, Fallout 2, Fallout Tactics

Maybe its time for my 35 year old self to stop playing so many silly games anyhow.

Chris

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

May I ask who you are Saint? You seem to know a lot about both game design and rats, so I guess you have some experience with these things? I know you were involved in this Vault site before, and have a seriously imature language from time to time, but except for that? And I'd like to know the same about you if you don't mind Roshambo?

Reason I ask is that I have seen your attacks against the people that could, with a little more luck, have brought us Fallout 3, and I'm currious about why? So you do not agree with some of their design decisions. Is this a good reason for behaving as you have done from time to time?

Funny, I pretty much avoided anything to do with Fallout 3 other than a few forum posts here and there on the subject. It managed to get cancelled without me, thanks. In fact, it got cancelled long before there was a Vault13.net, which would be where I started speaking out on the subject in the first place. It's been cancelled a few times over the years.

Meanwhile, I attacked Fallout Enforcer pretty enthusiastically, and it's likely to ship sometime early next year - with Fallout Enforcer 2 in production already. So, basically, we're talking about the complete opposite of what you're claiming is what's going on here.

As for immaturity, I have two things to say on that. The first is that if you can gather up everyone that's ever touched a video game, reviewed it, made it, whatever; put them in a room, toss a rock and nail one that doesn't fit someone's definition of "immature" out there, then you've beaten amazing odds.

The second thing I have to say on the subject is, LICK MY BALLS!

 

[Legshot]

Legshot, don't try to discuss what you don't know..just a helpful tip!

Lol what's that supposed to mean? I'm a gamer since I was 10 years old (that makes 13 years of gaming until now) and I'm a programmer (C/C++, Java, php, assembler, cobol, pl1 you name it)

I sure know what I'm talking about.