The Guns and Ammo Thread

Sander said:
Dove said:
Well, that's interesting.

Of course I'm not conceding, since the Swiss issues them to their military. Since every male is military for a certain period, obviously they would all get guns. I'm sure they have to give them up when their commitment is over.
Errr..no, they don't. They get to keep them.
Their combat rifles, or just their pistols?

I stand corrected, I know of one country that issues guns to their populace. Of course, through a small amount of research, their populace that is armed is considered militia, so not exactly civilian.

Of course this argues against all the "ban guns" people, since their gun related crime rate is lower than countries that have banned them.
 
Again, if you look at who your victims of violence have been over the past 30 years, one comes to some serious questions about the utility of guns in maintaining self-defense.

The the John Lott stats prove no correlations at all.

But when you have only a few cases of justifiable homicides vs the incrediable number of murders that take place within the home, then I think its fair to ask which is the riskier choice.

I will agree that murder and violent crime are due to socio-economic factors. How do those factors impact you? Introduce a gun into an argument or a dramatic moment and things change dramatically. But don't forget that the gun you use to protect yourself might also be the gun you use to shoot someone when you're pissed off and drunk. And while a person can be killed in ways others than guns, guns sure are the favored way of doing it.
 
Dove said:
Sander said:
Dove said:
Well, that's interesting.

Of course I'm not conceding, since the Swiss issues them to their military. Since every male is military for a certain period, obviously they would all get guns. I'm sure they have to give them up when their commitment is over.
Errr..no, they don't. They get to keep them.
Their combat rifles, or just their pistols?

I stand corrected, I know of one country that issues guns to their populace. Of course, through a small amount of research, their populace that is armed is considered militia, so not exactly civilian.

Of course this argues against all the "ban guns" people, since their gun related crime rate is lower than countries that have banned them.

They can keep their assault rifles...

Well an some time ago someone went berserk.
 
Welsh - your stats are pretty good, but one thing you fail to cover is crimes stopped by the use of a gun without a shot being fired.

Check FBI crime lab stats to find that number.

Last time I checked, it was over 2 million per year.

---

These instances rarely get reported because they don't fit the media requirement for blodd and high drama...
 
I hate to go back to this but I dispise such statements:

- serve and protect the public. That makes me a better person.

I do believe you SERVE the public. This does not entitle you to special privileges, especially ethically. Consider a pharmacist, the level of drug control for the average individual is based on sting operations or catching the individual in the deal or under the influence and the consequences bad but not harsh (I know plenty of stoners who have been caught by the police and only spent a night in jail, at the most). A pharmacist is constantly being reviewed by his employer and the state to ensure they maintaining ethical dispersion of naracotics, if they are caught then they lose their job, license and often spend ten years in jail (at least).

Going back to your statement, you are not a better person. You should be held to higher standards then "civies" (although for the most part, I believe you, police in general, are). I may be wrong about my interpretation but you should remember that you are only an officer while wearing the uniform, in every other situation you are just like the rest of us.

Sorry for the off-topic rant.
A brief on-topic (relatively un-informed) opinion: Pro: guns. Pro: strict gun control (no extended mags, nothing more then a semi-auto; higher stakes for possesion of restricted firearm). Double Pro: Spears (and Spear proliferation)....
 
enkidu said:
I hate to go back to this but I dispise such statements:
Yummy.

I do believe you SERVE the public. This does not entitle you to special privileges, especially ethically.
Nor do I expect special priviledges. Ethically I am superior to the average person. No bullshit. That's the way we must be. Our word is an extension of the law.

Consider a pharmacist,
Ok.
the level of drug control for the average individual is based on sting operations or catching the individual in the deal or under the influence and the consequences bad but not harsh (I know plenty of stoners who have been caught by the police and only spent a night in jail, at the most).
OOoookay. Please get to a point, and stop rambling

A pharmacist is constantly being reviewed by his employer and the state to ensure they maintaining ethical dispersion of naracotics, if they are caught then they lose their job, license and often spend ten years in jail (at least).
And a cop? What happens to us if we don't do our duty? Lose our job, pay restitution sometimes, spend as many years in prison as we get sentenced.

Die.

Not severe enough of a penalty for daydreaming about playing video games after work?

Going back to your statement, you are not a better person. You should be held to higher standards then "civies" (although for the most part, I believe you, police in general, are).
Yes. Yes we are.

I may be wrong about my interpretation but you should remember that you are only an officer while wearing the uniform, in every other situation you are just like the rest of us.
Uh. No. We only get PAID while wearing the uniform. A law enforcement officer is never truly off duty until they die, resign, or retire.

Sorry for the off-topic rant.
A brief on-topic (relatively un-informed) opinion: Pro: guns. Pro: strict gun control (no extended mags, nothing more then a semi-auto; higher stakes for possesion of restricted firearm). Double Pro: Spears (and Spear proliferation)....
Huh? Explanation needed.
 
OK Dove, the last bit was a nothing more then stating I think gun control is a good idea, we don't need an SKS to kill a deer or stop a criminal. As someone early pointed out, most crimes that are stoped by civillians with guns result to no shots fired. So would a 9mm work? Or must we use a rifle to protect ourselves?

While I agree my analogy was a bit scattered and verbose, the point is that a pharmacist can lose their way of life for how a doctor wrote a script (I intern in a clinic, so I see this happen). While this is not as bad as dying (clearly), the result is a risky-job with no special perks besides $90,000 a year. A pharmacist cannot give himself controlled medication. Nor should an civil protection officer be allowed special perks including boasting moral surperiority. No offense but you are nothing more then a tool for law makers (Much like a pharmacist to a doctor). You simply provide the valuable service of enforcement.

And yes, you are off-duty when not in uniform. You cannot arrest me, you cannot give me a ticket and you most certainly cannot shoot me (even in self-defense; there are thousands of cases were an individual fired and the criminal successfully pressed charges).

I must emphiasize we expect a lot of police officers and pay them not nearly enough; however, you are not better then the rest of us.
 
enkidu said:
OK Dove, the last bit was a nothing more then stating I think gun control is a good idea, we don't need an SKS to kill a deer or stop a criminal. As someone early pointed out, most crimes that are stoped by civillians with guns result to no shots fired. So would a 9mm work? Or must we use a rifle to protect ourselves?
I never said you need a rifle either. A civilian with a gun in the right place can make a situation that could be national news (30+ students killed) into a local blurb (gunman kills two, is killed by armed bystander). I'm all for restrictions on types of guns, and ammunition. Not guns themselves.

While I agree my analogy was a bit scattered and verbose, the point is that a pharmacist can lose their way of life for how a doctor wrote a script (I intern in a clinic, so I see this happen). While this is not as bad as dying (clearly), the result is a risky-job with no special perks besides $90,000 a year.
Do it for half that, maybe less.

A pharmacist cannot give himself controlled medication.
Obviously.

Nor should an civil protection officer be allowed special perks including boasting moral surperiority.
It's not a perk. It's fact. I'm (obviously) a more law abiding citizen than almost everybody. Not just criminal stuff either.

No offense but you are nothing more then a tool for law makers (Much like a pharmacist to a doctor). You simply provide the valuable service of enforcement.
A tool for lawmakers? Uh, no. I provide a valuable service to citizens, not the government. We're not the Gestapo.

And yes, you are off-duty when not in uniform. You cannot arrest me, you cannot give me a ticket and you most certainly cannot shoot me (even in self-defense; there are thousands of cases were an individual fired and the criminal successfully pressed charges).
Where are you from?

I can do all those things while not in uniform. Required to carry a pistol, required to have handcuffs available, and required to stop a crime in progress. Just because I don't have a cruiser and radio while not in service doesn't mean that I can just zone out and ignore something. It just means I'm not responding to calls.

I must emphiasize we expect a lot of police officers and pay them not nearly enough; however, you are not better then the rest of us.
Be one for a while, see what people do, and what they believe and then come back and say that.

Besides, I didn't say I was better than the rest of you, I said ethically, and morally I'm better than the majority of the population.
 
enkidu said:
OK Dove, the last bit was a nothing more then stating I think gun control is a good idea, we don't need an SKS to kill a deer or stop a criminal. As someone early pointed out, most crimes that are stoped by civillians with guns result to no shots fired. So would a 9mm work? Or must we use a rifle to protect ourselves?
Congradulations, you, like so many other people, have completely missed the entire point of the American 2nd Amendment.

Noah Webster said:
Tyranny is the exercise of some power over a man, which is not warranted by law, or necessary for the public safety. A people can never be deprived of their liberties, while they retain in their own hands, a power sufficient to any other power in the state... ...Another source of power in government is a military force. But this, to be efficient, must be superior to any force that exists among the people, or which they can command; for otherwise this force would be annihilated, on the first exercise of acts of oppression. Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States.
It was meant to be a check against an oppressive government, an armed population would outnumber any standing army by three to one at least, as our founders saw it. Disarming the people, as it said would be required by any would be tyrant, such as happened in Germany during the rise of the Nazi party, and again in Italy during Benito Mussolini's rise to power.

Even so, the second amendment has been limited, assaulted, and whittled away at to where it can no longer truely serve its purpose.
 
PhredBean said:
Congradulations, you, like so many other people, have completely missed the entire point of the American 2nd Amendment.

Would you stop this 2nd amendment bullshit? not everybody on this site lives in america, and your country is not the one most respected nowadays for you to quote its law to us.

My country is very shitty indeed, but there are no reported school shootings of any kind, and criminals use fuckin co2 weapons, damn.

The fact that we know some of your laws and amendments doesn't mean they are arguments all the time. For that matter, do any of you know any other country's gun laws or Constitutions? Not to mention their amendments.

Consider this is not a talk about america and its constitution, damn.
 
PhredBean said:
enkidu said:
OK Dove, the last bit was a nothing more then stating I think gun control is a good idea, we don't need an SKS to kill a deer or stop a criminal. As someone early pointed out, most crimes that are stoped by civillians with guns result to no shots fired. So would a 9mm work? Or must we use a rifle to protect ourselves?
Congradulations, you, like so many other people, have completely missed the entire point of the American 2nd Amendment.

So? what about the 4th, 5th and 8th Amendment?

More important Amendments have been raped in the ass despite all that constitutional patriotism... and nobody makes a such a big fuzz about it.

Hypocisy at its best.
 
DammitBoy said:
Welsh - your stats are pretty good, but one thing you fail to cover is crimes stopped by the use of a gun without a shot being fired.

Check FBI crime lab stats to find that number.

Last time I checked, it was over 2 million per year.

---

These instances rarely get reported because they don't fit the media requirement for blodd and high drama...

Dammitboy-

If you got the stat, post it up. Last I heard that there was a lot of bad numbers in the surveys done about defensive use of guns. Most of the survey questions were pretty crappy.

SOme of this is familiar. For instance Kellerman's response to Kleck (and the Florida survey you site) is critical of Kleck's findings.

Relationships between crime, violence, and gun ownership
There is an open debate regarding the relationship between gun control, and violence and other crimes. The numbers of lives saved or lost by gun ownership is debated by criminologists. Research difficulties include the difficulty of accounting accurately for confrontations in which no shots are fired, and jurisdictional differences in the definition of "crime".

Some writers, such as John Lott, author of More Guns, Less Crime, say they have discovered a positive correlation between gun control legislation and crimes in which criminals victimize law-abiding citizens. Lott asserts that criminals ignore gun control laws and are effectively deterred only by armed intended victims just as higher penalties deter crime. His work involved comparison and analysis from data collected from all the counties in the United States.[29] Lott's study has been criticized for not adequately controlling for other factors, including other state laws also enacted, such as Florida's laws requiring background checks and waiting period for handgun buyers.[30] with similar findings by Jens Ludwig.[31] Since concealed-carry permits are only given to adults, Philip J. Cook suggests that analysis should focus on the relationship with adult and not juvenile gun incident rates.[32] He finds a small, positive effect of concealed-carry laws on adult homicide rates, but states the effect is not statistically significant.[32] The National Academy of Science has found no evidence that shows right-to-carry laws have an impact, either way, on rates of violent crime.[33] NAS suggests that new analytical approaches and datasets at the county or local level are needed to evaluate adequately the impact of right-to-carry laws.[34]

Another researcher, Dr. Gary Kleck, a criminologist at Florida State University, estimated that approximately 2.5 million people used their gun in self-defense or to prevent crime each year, often by merely displaying a weapon. The incidents that Kleck studied generally did not involve the firing of the gun and he estimates that as many as 1.9 million of those instances involved a handgun.[35] Kleck's research has been challenged by scholars such as David Hemenway who argue that these estimates of crimes prevented by gun ownership are too high.

The National Rifle Association regularly reprints locally-published stories of ordinary citizens whose lives were saved by their guns.

A study supported by the National Rifle Association found that homicide rates as a whole, especially homicides as a result of firearms use, are not always significantly lower in many other developed countries. This is apparent in the UK and Japan, which have very strict gun control, while Israel, Canada, and Switzerland at the same time have low homicide rates and high rates of gun distribution. Although Dr Kleck has stated, "...cross-national comparisons do not provide a sound basis for assessing the impact of gun ownership levels on crime rates." [36]

In a New England Journal of Medicine article Kellermann, et. al. found that people who keep a gun at home increase their risk of homicide.[37] Florida State University professor Gary Kleck disagrees with the journal authors' interpretation of the evidence and he argues that there is no evidence that the guns involved in the home homicides studied by Kellermann, et. al. were kept in the victim's home.[35] Similarly, Dave Kopel, writing in the National Review criticized Kellermann's study.[38] Kellermann responded to similar criticisms of the data behind his study in a letter to the New England Journal of Medicine[39] Finally, another argument cited by academics researching gun violence points to the positive correlation between guns in the home and an already violent neighborhood. These points assert that Professor Kleck's causal story is in fact backwards and that violent neighborhoods cause homeowners to purchase guns and it is the neighborhood that determines the probability of homicide, not the presence of a gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_States

Kellerman-
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/329/15/1084
Kleck-
http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html

Thing is that if you have a defensive use of fireamrs every 13 seconds, you are suggesting a pretty large spike in crime, right?
 
Fahrplan said:
PhredBean said:
enkidu said:
OK Dove, the last bit was a nothing more then stating I think gun control is a good idea, we don't need an SKS to kill a deer or stop a criminal. As someone early pointed out, most crimes that are stoped by civillians with guns result to no shots fired. So would a 9mm work? Or must we use a rifle to protect ourselves?
Congradulations, you, like so many other people, have completely missed the entire point of the American 2nd Amendment.

So? what about the 4th, 5th and 8th Amendment?

More important Amendments have been raped in the ass despite all that constitutional patriotism... and nobody makes a such a big fuzz about it.

Hypocisy at its best.

www.lp.org

some of us make a fuss
 
Dammit Boy-

I thought I posted some of the stuff from your first link- but the second link is interesting-

Most americans who own guns have multiple guns, and that's less than 40% of Americans (and that number is in decline).

One might think that if the need for guns to defend oneself were so overwhelming, the number of gun owners would go up.

More in a bit.
Most gun owners are white, suburban, college educated who use the gun for recreationaly purposes- yet most crime is urban, minority and poor.

That goes to my point elsewhere- while I have not problem with someone having a license and owning a gun, I do have a problem when people of that same demographic that owns a gun (middle class, suburban white) tries to tell another community how to regulate its problem with gun violence.

That those who have been arrested in the past for non-traffic violations are more likely to own guns that civilians without criminal records- is kind of scary. Given that people with past histories of crime are likely to commit crime seems to invite more criminal gun violence. This is not a group in need of regulation?

So criminals are getting guns legally. Wonderful.

Edit- just read through the section of defensive gun use- and they make a lot of good points. They make many good criticisms about the Keck survey results. For instance, merely because the gun was used defensively, it doesn'tmean that the person defending was "right". There is a big difference between a person using a gun to defend a home against a burglar and someone at a bar who is about to get into a fight and takes out a gun. I wonder what is the danger that the presence of a gun escalates violence- a consequence of the security dilemma problem I raised earlier.

But based on that report and the data established elsewhere- raised by your post and my posts looking at crime states-

(1) Most people who own guns will probably never have to use them defensively.

(2) The most likely victims of gun violence are poor and minority, people who usually can't even afford to have a gun.

Does the ownership of a gun make you or your family safer? Considering
- how many guns fall into criminal hands due to theft and
- the unwillingness of people either to lock up guns or take safety tips,
- the increased likelihood of suicide or
- accidental use of a gun in the home.

Then probably not.

Considering the high rate of murder among blacks related to crime and drugs is usually perpetuated against other Blacks,

While white usually use their guns against either family members-

Then the average white guy is more likely to use his gun against his wife or girlfriend than a drug dealing gangsta.
 
nospaces said:
www.lp.org

some of us make a fuss
Agreed, though I'm not libertarian, I'm a constitutionalist. There are many of us making a fuss, unfortunately not enough to drown out the bleating of the dual party sheep.
 
PhredBean said:
nospaces said:
www.lp.org

some of us make a fuss
Agreed, though I'm not libertarian, I'm a constitutionalist. There are many of us making a fuss, unfortunately not enough to drown out the bleating of the dual party sheep.

we really need to just rally under a single flag, so we can stand up to them
 
We are, more or less. Ron Paul is taking a shot at a nomination as a Republican, though he is a die hard libertarian. Most of the constitutionalists and libertarians are rallying behind him currently. An interview with him, for those interested. He dislikes the direction of America and both of its primary parties.


Back to guns, I have recently purchased a new rifle for cayote hunting. A .22-250 Savage, accurate as hell, though its harder to find out here, particularly for a left handed shooter like myself. Bought it after trying my friend's rifle out on a cayote hunt. Still waiting for the thing to ship to Gallenson's.
 
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