The Guns and Ammo Thread

[Kyuu]

Okay, I have another question regarding opinions on trigger-actions. I was reading up on them and there seem to be some strong opinions on the subject.

In particular, a lot of the 9mm handguns I'm looking at seem to be of the DA/SA type. Some people believe that having two different trigger pulls, DA for the first shot and then SA for the remainder, is not only unnecessary but potentially dangerous in a RL life-or-death situation (I may, after gaining some proficiency, try and go for a concealed carry permit). Then of course there's all sorts of things about safeties and decocker levers. I know that there's no way for me to know what works for me and what doesn't without simply trying it for myself, but if anyone has an opinion to share I'd like to hear it.

 

[mobucks]

All the saftey shit they ever make is no substitute for good trigger discipline.

Id go with SA as a civilian/enthusiast and DA/SA as law enforcement/ home defense/ zombie apocalypse survivor. Remember in a home defense situation the intruder may hear you cock a SA.

Unless there are stick-up kids in your area, go with SA.

 

[SuAside]

But Dammitboy is right... his Safari arms pistol is not a racegun.

Lets end this argument and talk about something else already.

So you jump into a discussion, comment about the wrong fucking gun and then say we should end the discussion.

I just facepalmed. Seriously, I friggin' facepalmed. I had not facepalmed in years.

Bravo.

 

[WillisPDunlevey]

Oh I see now... the gun you were talking about and his version of the gun you were talking about are not the same... so I am wrong.

 

[Hoxie]

Not the best quality, but my FIE .22 MAG

 

[DammitBoy]

But Dammitboy is right... his Safari arms pistol is not a racegun.

Lets end this argument and talk about something else already.

So you jump into a discussion, comment about the wrong fucking gun and then say we should end the discussion.

I just facepalmed. Seriously, I friggin' facepalmed. I had not facepalmed in years.

Bravo.

Why so anal?

They are basically the same gun dude, one has an extended magazine - one doesn't. Neither of them are race guns, you tard.

Get over it and move on already.

You buy anything recently or making plans for what?

 

[SuAside]

You buy anything recently or making plans for what?

Well, I was looking at the CZ Scorpion EVO3 S1 and the B&T APC-9.

Sadly, I've heard a few horror stories confirmed about the EVO3, so that's kinda disappeared off my potential purchases list eventhough it's insanely sexy to fingerfuck. The APC-9 is uglier, but far more solid & better thought out. Examples: the barrel is affixed to the top rail to ensure zero, the triggerpack can be swapped with any AR15 aftermarket part, it comes with an aimpoint micro 2MOA,... Biggest downside is that the backup ironsights are friggin' flimsy plastic shit (think like the HK416 but worse).

I'm suddenly on the fence about the whole thing though. Is it worth the cash? And shouldn't I go for a SCAR Mk17s or something instead?

Recently also testfired a HK P30 LEM/CDA with the idea to buy one, but while the ergonomics were great, the trigger travel (albeit light) was excessively long for my grip, causing my grip to shift and causing me to miss my POA (it did group nicely though). Probably a training issue, but... I already have an X-Five (SA) and a Sphinx 2000 (SA/DA), do I really need a LEM/CDA?

Also thinking of getting a CZ 452-2E ZKM LH LUX in .22LR to practise some rifle fundamentals. Also maybe a HK/Umarex/Walther MP5 in .22LR as a range toy.

 

[DammitBoy]

Aside from the 'cool factor' what reasons would you be interested in getting either of those for?

I find myself re-evaluating the guns I own and what I want to do with them, especially with me basically living on the road theses days...

 

[Kyuu]

So are there any bullpup rifles on the civilian market asides from the Steyr AUG (which is probably a fine gun but I just don't like to look at it, it's ugly)? I'm a fan of the FAMAS, but that's impossible to get (outside of one or two hundred that were imported to the US forever ago and are basically absurdly overpriced collector pieces nowadays).

The Israeli Tavor looks like a nice piece of hardware, as well as the Chinese QBZ-95, but as near as I can tell there aren't any civilian models on the market.

 

[Hassknecht]

FN makes a semi-automatic verison of the F2000, but I guess it's expensive as hell, too.

 

[Kyuu]

Ah right, the F2000. Forgot about that one. A nice gun, but it is damned expensive, as you noted. I guess I should change the criteria to: bullpup rifle/carbine for a reasonable price. =P

I suppose the PS90 could qualify, seeing as the barrel is over 16".

 

[WillisPDunlevey]

there are a number of Bullpup kits for AK type rifles (and SKS) that have come out over the last few years (in the USA)...

I am NOT talking about those crap ones that KVAR made/sells to Century Arms.

I cant google them at work... but they are out there.
One company makes their kits for regular AKs and Saiga shotguns.

I wonder if one of them would fit the new VEPRs in 7.62x54r with the 23" barrel.

I wont be getting any of them as I am left handed.

 

[SuAside]

Aside from the 'cool factor' what reasons would you be interested in getting either of those for?

The Scorpion & APC9?

Well, I shoot a lot of close to midrange. The closest decent range is only 50m. I have to drive further for 100m & half across the country for 200-300-400m ranges which are only open on certain days.

I have a Sig 551, which is great, but I'm quickly shooting 50-100 euros worth of ammo through that with a very short range session. Meanwhile I'm sitting on a large stack of 9x19mm.

There's also talk of starting 2-gun competitions (for fun), with pistol & SMG/carbine.

Either way, I don't have anything in that niche, so giving it serious thought.

So are there any bullpup rifles on the civilian market asides from the Steyr AUG (which is probably a fine gun but I just don't like to look at it, it's ugly)?

FN FS2000: fairly bad trigger, but very natural pointer.
FN PS90: kinda dumb in semi imo.
Steyr AUG: trigger substandard for a range rifle, but decent for a war rifle.
Second hand MSAR (they went bankrupt):slightly worse AUG clones.
Keltec RFB: 7.62x51, dunno about quality.
Horrid AK conversions: did I mention horrid?
Tavor will be hitting the US soon according to the last SHOT show, if it hasn't already.

 

[DammitBoy]

FN FS2000: fairly bad trigger, but very natural pointer.
FN PS90: kinda dumb in semi imo.
Steyr AUG: trigger substandard for a range rifle, but decent for a war rifle.
Second hand MSAR (they went bankrupt):slightly worse AUG clones.
Keltec RFB: 7.62x51, dunno about quality.
Horrid AK conversions: did I mention horrid?

How many of these have you actually fired at a gun range?

 

[SuAside]

FN FS2000: fairly bad trigger, but very natural pointer.
FN PS90: kinda dumb in semi imo.
Steyr AUG: trigger substandard for a range rifle, but decent for a war rifle.
Second hand MSAR (they went bankrupt):slightly worse AUG clones.
Keltec RFB: 7.62x51, dunno about quality.
Horrid AK conversions: did I mention horrid?

How many of these have you actually fired at a gun range?

I've shot a converted F2000 (because the owner did not want to wait for the FS2000 to hit the market here & had connections that could get him the real deal modified for semi only, which is legal here) and the Steyr AUG A1 & A2.

P90/PS90 is illegal here. MSAR rifles never made it across the ocean. Don't think Keltec has any RFBs in Euroland. So that rules those out.

Shot AKs ofc, but not their conversions, but by all means I was not speaking of triggers when I said they were horrid.

What's your point, DammitBoy? Miffed by my trigger comments? For a general issue rifle, the F2000 & AUG are fine, but if you want to get the most out of those as a range gun, they compare very unfavorably to any Sig 550/551/553 or top tier AR15 while still being in the same price range here.

 

[WillisPDunlevey]

I just put a Vz-58 on lay-away (it will go nicely with my Grenada Vz-52/57). It has a side folder stock and custom wood grip and handguards. The rifle has been parkerized.

It is not a century model.

Ill post pix when i get it home.

 

[DammitBoy]

I've shot a converted F2000 (because the owner did not want to wait for the FS2000 to hit the market here & had connections that could get him the real deal modified for semi only, which is legal here) and the Steyr AUG A1 & A2.

P90/PS90 is illegal here. MSAR rifles never made it across the ocean. Don't think Keltec has any RFBs in Euroland. So that rules those out.

Shot AKs ofc, but not their conversions, but by all means I was not speaking of triggers when I said they were horrid.

What's your point, DammitBoy? Miffed by my trigger comments?

No, I'm always amused when you post personal opinions with no basis in actual experience as fact with zero disclaimers.

For instance, you've only fired two of the guns out of the handful you posted about. I find that hilareous.

 

[WillisPDunlevey]

The only bullpup I have ever fired was a bushmaster m17 i used to own.

It was easy to hold with one hand and had a heavy barrel.

Bad points... worst trigger ever. Iron sights (actually nylon) were worse than on a $10 airsoft, no way to customize it at all really.

I atleast got it cheap enough that I could sell it for more than I had into it 5 years later.

 

[SuAside]

No, I'm always amused when you post personal opinions with no basis in actual experience as fact with zero disclaimers.

For instance, you've only fired two of the guns out of the handful you posted about. I find that hilareous.

Well, let's see what I said:

FN FS2000: fairly bad trigger, but very natural pointer.

From experience.

FN PS90: kinda dumb in semi imo.

Never shot one due to legal status here, obviously. However, it totally goes against the entire philosophy of what the P90 was designed for? Probably fun, but prohibitive in price of purchase & price of ammo. So yeah, kinda dumb imo.

Steyr AUG: trigger substandard for a range rifle, but decent for a war rifle.

From experience.

Second hand MSAR (they went bankrupt):slightly worse AUG clones.

This is the concensus. Have not fired one, but this is what every review you'll read about it will tell you.

Keltec RFB: 7.62x51, dunno about quality.

No opinion here, so you can't be amused nor offended.

Horrid AK conversions: did I mention horrid?

Do I really need to justify this?

Tavor will be hitting the US soon according to the last SHOT show, if it hasn't already.

No opinion here, so you can't be amused nor offended.

So yeah, whatever, DammitBoy.

As for disclaimers? This is the internet for pete's sake. Everything here is "YMMV" and "take everything with a grain of salt".

 

[WillisPDunlevey]

I know of one AK bullpup that supposedly has a really good trigger.

it was called Shadowpup by its owner. It was made from a romanian 5.45 rifle. The connector between the front and rear trigger was done with specially fitted piano wire.
The rear trigger group was an adjustable red star arms group.