The Guns and Ammo Thread

xxxRedMetalxxx said:
When comparing an average impact damage for ammunition calibers should I / can I rely on Ft./Lbs and muzzle energy (joules)? And is this an accurate way to compare the actual damage of a round compared to other calibers?
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There is endless debate about this. There is no perfect way to measure it.

There's a lot of factors to keep in mind as far as I'm concerned, but everything is purely situational.

For me personally:
- A gun you're skilled with is better than a bigger/better/harderhitting gun you're not skilled with.
- A gun with which you can do quick & accurate follow up shots is better than a bigger/better/harderhitting gun you cannot do that with.
- The gun must be reasonably safe to use for its intended purpose. For home defense, that means being aware of which ammo goes through walls and which doesn't. All my interior walls are brick, so I can fire pretty much anything indoor without too much danger of hitting a family member that's behind a wall. This is often not true for american homes.

If your concerns are related to 9x19mm vs .40s&w vs .45ACP, I'd suggest you spend more time practising rather than worrying about that. Shot placement is likely a more important factor than anything else.

Obviously if your concern is .22LR vs .25ACP vs .380ACP vs .38Spl vs 9x18, then you might want to re-evaluate your choices. I'd discourage using .22LR & .25ACP, but having those is obviously better than having nothing at all.
 
I agree 100% with what suaside said.

His advice is way better than most you will find online.

Most of the time, gun advice is a backhanded way of bragging about the expensive crap the speaker owns.
 
xxxRedMetalxxx said:
Hmmm a little on and off the subject at the same time but;

When comparing an average impact damage for ammunition calibers should I / can I rely on Ft./Lbs and muzzle energy (joules)? And is this an accurate way to compare the actual damage of a round compared to other calibers?

I know it is a bit vague, but by average impact damage I mean I need to figure out which caliber is better than which, regardless of ammunition type and weapon it is fired from and manufacturer. So far I have created a list of muzzle energy charts in accordance to multiple ammo sizes. The muzzle energy is calculated from the most standard form of round I can find.

Should I continue creating this list based on energy readings or is there a better way of figuring out damage apart from finding and testing every known ammunition and weapon in the world?
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It sounds like you're using this for a videogame, correct? If so, then muzzle energy is probably an acceptable proxy metric for round effectiveness. I don't think there's any need to dive into endless firearms debates simply to make your game.

After you finish putting the chart together, though, you might run your stats by a gun guy, just to make sure there's nothing that's glaringly strange.
 
Compiling lists such as this is horribly hard, since real world effects can not be put into numbers.

Even the same type of ammo with a different style bullet will give you considerable changes. Like 7.62x51mm NATO ball ammo behaves entirely different from german fragmenting ammo, while being the same caliber, weight and both being FMJ.
 
SuAside said:
There is endless debate about this. There is no perfect way to measure it.

There's a lot of factors to keep in mind as far as I'm concerned, but everything is purely situational.

For me personally:
- A gun you're skilled with is better than a bigger/better/harderhitting gun you're not skilled with.
- A gun with which you can do quick & accurate follow up shots is better than a bigger/better/harderhitting gun you cannot do that with.
- The gun must be reasonably safe to use for its intended purpose. For home defense, that means being aware of which ammo goes through walls and which doesn't. All my interior walls are brick, so I can fire pretty much anything indoor without too much danger of hitting a family member that's behind a wall. This is often not true for american homes.

If your concerns are related to 9x19mm vs .40s&w vs .45ACP, I'd suggest you spend more time practising rather than worrying about that. Shot placement is likely a more important factor than anything else.

Obviously if your concern is .22LR vs .25ACP vs .380ACP vs .38Spl vs 9x18, then you might want to re-evaluate your choices. I'd discourage using .22LR & .25ACP, but having those is obviously better than having nothing at all.
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Yeah, I no there is no perfect way SuAside, obvious when there are so many variants of the same caliber of ammunition that all have different specifications and even more differences in performance when used with different firearms...
Mind-boggling!...
This is why my question is should I use joules as a way of averaging each caliber??? But to be honest I'm not sure whether it matters all that much as this will be for a game which I am creating where the players proberbly won't give a damn how realistic or accurate I try to make it. Call it O.C.D. I'm gonna use the list anyway.
I have a little experience with actual firearms yet not compared to some of you gun-nuts! :) So I thought it would be a good idea to ask you guys. I literally will be making a list of what caliber is better than what, even though it will be impossible to create it based on utter realism. But as a guide for my game project, it is important.

WillisPDunlevey said:
I agree 100% with what suaside said.

His advice is way better than most you will find online.

Most of the time, gun advice is a backhanded way of bragging about the expensive crap the speaker owns.
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I agree too, yet thinking more of the virtual sense rather than the literal. Maybe I should have explained better that this is for a game? Does'nt matter, the outcome will be the same.

Geech said:
It sounds like you're using this for a videogame, correct? If so, then muzzle energy is probably an acceptable proxy metric for round effectiveness. I don't think there's any need to dive into endless firearms debates simply to make your game.

After you finish putting the chart together, though, you might run your stats by a gun guy, just to make sure there's nothing that's glaringly strange.
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Bingo!...
You are completely right, I have written a small chart-like thing so I will be posting it to get some opinions. It will need a bit of explaining though... you'lle see.

SuAside said:
Compiling lists such as this is horribly hard, since real world effects can not be put into numbers.

Even the same type of ammo with a different style bullet will give you considerable changes. Like 7.62x51mm NATO ball ammo behaves entirely different from german fragmenting ammo, while being the same caliber, weight and both being FMJ.
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LOL! :) HARD??? You ever tried? It is impossible. This is why 'averaging' is the only option. I have tried using caliber ratings like hornadys hits rating ( http://www.hornady.com/hits/calculator ) and some system based off some guys name I forgot... but ratings are definately a poor way to go when faced with extremely large calibers that can not be calculated. However, all forms of ammunition have a recorded impact energy (somewhere). So finding those and looking more into the basic and most common variants of ammunition available for each caliber will give you a minimal / average impact energy value for said caliber. I THINK? Not sure, you will have to correct me but so far this seems to be the be system I have found.

I will post my chart thing with a brief explanation to see what you all think...
 
ENERGY QTY CALIBER PROGRESS

35 J 013 .22 Rimfire BB / CB (6mm ME Flobert Short) <Done>
118 J 017 .22 Short <Done>
127 J 012 .25 ACP <Done>
141 J 037 .22 LR <Creating>
159 J 005 .32 S&W Long
174 J 008 .32 ACP
224 J 000 .38 Short Colt
270 J 001 .380 ACP (9mm Browning Short)
273 J 000 .38 Long Colt
313 J 000 9x18mm Makarov
439 J 000 .32 H&R Magnum
456 J 000 .44 Colt
518 J 020 9x19mm Parabellum (9mm Luger)
540 J 000 FN 5.7×28mm
545 J 000 7.63×25mm Mauser
561 J 012 .45 ACP
575 J 005 .40 S&W
611 J 000 .45 GAP
633 J 000 .38 Super
639 J 000 9x23mm Winchester
641 J 001 .45 Colt
715 J 000 7.62x25mm Tokarev
960 J 010 .22 Hornet <Done>
962 J 004 .357 Magnum
983 J 000 10x25mm Norma (10mm Auto)
1030 J 000 .44 Magnum
1311 J 009 .30 M1 Carbine
1340 J 000 5.45x39mm 7N6
1650 J 002 .410 Shotgun
1767 J 009 5.56x45mm NATO (.223 Remington)
2056 J 007 7.62x39mm M43
2200 J 000 .50 Action Express
2370 J 000 .45-70 Government
2459 J 000 .454 Casull
2600 J 000 .440 Cor-bon Magnum
2711 J 003 20-Gauge
2930 J 000 6.5x54mm Mannlicher
3304 J 003 7.62x51mm NATO
3463 J 000 .303 British
3593 J 001 7.62x54mmR
3675 J 003 12-Gauge
3832 J 000 .257 Weatherby Magnum
3840 J 001 .30-06 Springfield
4010 J 000 .50 Beowulf
4216 J 000 10-Gauge
5278 J 007 .300 Winchester Magnum
5734 J 001 .376 Steyr
6516 J 003 .338 Lapua Magnum
8307 J 000 .500 Jeffery
18100 J 005 12.7x99mm NATO (.50 BMG)
29850 J 001 14.5x114mm
45000 J+ 001 20x82mm
55000 J+ 001 20x110mm
95000 J+ 000 25x137mm M793


----- 004 40x46mm NATO Grenade
----- 001 40x51mm NATO Grenade


52 / 204
25.49% Complete


OK here goes... The list is simply for my own modding use and is mainly for catagorising the effectiveness of caliber and amount of weapons found and completed so far.

'ENERGY' is fairly self-explanatory, this is the value of joules for the impact enery of what I call 'standard' rounds.
'QTY' is the amount of firearms I have found that are ready to create and use in my project.
'CALIBER' is, well, you already know this. Whether it is a bore gauge or caliber, it is just the name of ammunition.
'PROGRESS' is where I am working on weaponry, and which ones are completed.

Obviously this list is growing, as different calibers and weapons take my notice, some are incorporated into my game. I am trying to make this as realistic as possible yet I know that my expectations of realism are unrealistic! If you know what I mean... from experience, could you guys take a look and let me know your opinions of the ratings of these calibers? And, thanks in advance.
 
Since this is for a game (PnP or video) you might want to give these books a try. They are heavy on the calculations, but would probably be useful for your needs. They are out of date as far as models and some new calibers, but you could build your own new equations etc. using their existing models
41CFQ382CZL._AA160_.gif

http://www.amazon.com/3G3-Guns-Weap...ks&ie=UTF8&qid=1377258283&sr=1-1&keywords=3g3

51Qj87TRJhL._AA160_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Wea...ks&ie=UTF8&qid=1377258283&sr=1-3&keywords=3g3
 
Thank you very much WillisPDunlevey, did'nt even know something like that existed. I will have a look into these books and see how they may help. Thanks again dude.
 
Depending on your project, something you might want to consider... any bullet (except probably the .22 CB) can kill someone in a single hit if that hit is in a vital area. No game that I can remember takes that into account. Example- .22lr is a well known killer, but usually those shots have to be either into the brain or into the heart. Larger bullets with more energy obviously can kill the same way, but there is a much wider area that they can hit to kill someone via making a bigger hole, deeper penetration, secondary projectiles (from parts of the bullet or jacket that come off and travel in a slightly different direction and massive blood loss etc.
 
WillisPDunlevey said:
Depending on your project, something you might want to consider... any bullet (except probably the .22 CB) can kill someone in a single hit if that hit is in a vital area. No game that I can remember takes that into account. Example- .22lr is a well known killer, but usually those shots have to be either into the brain or into the heart. Larger bullets with more energy obviously can kill the same way, but there is a much wider area that they can hit to kill someone via making a bigger hole, deeper penetration, secondary projectiles (from parts of the bullet or jacket that come off and travel in a slightly different direction and massive blood loss etc.
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Hmmm, yep that was along the line of what I was thinking. But the game itself will proberbly not allow for that kind of realism when it comes to firearms. I think I know where to go with damage and power comparisons and these books are definately worth a look at to get alternative ideas and inspiration.
One thing I am not entirely sure about on my list so far is the energy rating for the .44 Colt caliber... This is the only energy rating on the list that is not based on actual findings in my research. The actual impact energy I found was stated around 150 J. Not sure but that sounds awfully low. I need a second opinion on that one.
 
Hmmm... doesn't really help me.
It's the .44 Colt on the list (that's the name I know it as), it is rated around the power of 9x19 Parabellum yet this is because I changed it. The actual rating was more around the .22 LR area, that just does'nt seem right to me.
As these energy ratings were gathered from different sources, I am guessing that some may be wrong. If anyone notices any inconsistencies please let me know and I will correct them.
 
It was a round used in the 1800s, the wiki for it is here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44_Colt

Which, actually states a different muzzle energy rating?!?... Not sure if people have an accurate measurement for the power of these rounds. The last source I found rated this caliber around the same power of a .22 LR, this page states the energy to be more alike to a .38 LC... still seems a bit low to me but I have no real life experience with this caliber so I don't know...
 
Isn't the muzzle energy/velocity dependent on the weapon/length of the barrel? How are those values measured?
 
Hassknecht said:
Isn't the muzzle energy/velocity dependent on the weapon/length of the barrel? How are those values measured?
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There is no real globally accepted standard for measuring these.

But yes, barrel length affects velocity. And velocity is measured by an appliance designed specifically for it. It measures when the bullet flies past two discrete points and extrapolates velocity.

Usually, velocity is measured a few yards from the muzzle.
 
I may have said this before, but it turns out I hate the scout concept. I've never found a long eye relief scope I really liked. I'd also rather have a semi for that role. I believe I am capable of not expending all my ammo like an idiot.

However, I really do like the rifle. Light weight, reasonably compact, relatively inexpensive, and accurate enough for taking game out to a couple hundred yards. I'm going to site in that new MTAC tomorrow and see if I like it in practice as much as I like it in theory.
 
Yeah, personally I think the scout concept is outdated & the long eye relief scopes are a horrible solution to a non-existant problem in the age of ACOGs and so on.

Cooper was a cool dude, but the scout concept is pretty derp. Even in WW2 it would've been outdated.

That said, I do intend to buy me a short (16"?) precision rifle at some point though, but it's sure as hell not going to get a long eye relief scope and forward mount.
 
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