The Guns and Ammo Thread

JohnnyEgo said:
I'm not a huge Glock fan, myself. Got a single stack Colt Delta Elite in 10mm on order.

This is actually my backwoods gun. It's reliable, low maintenance, and I don't really care if it gets wet or dirty. I moved to the foothills of Colorado, where in addition to the usual two legged predators, I face a variety of four legged threats, including feral hogs, rutting deer, and black bears. They have a much denser skeletal structure and more muscle mass shielding vital organs, so you need something with considerably more penetration then 9mm or .45. 10mm is somewhat obscure, but 200gr of lead hard cast moving at 1100 fps will give you penetration and trauma that are unmatched in any other auto pistol.
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I don't know if you looked back a couple of pages or not, but I got a Paraordnance P16 converted from .40 to 10mm - it's just another play pretty though - not a daily carry or backwoods gun.

I looked hard at glocks, but the grip felt very slippery and small to me and I've been very pleased with my other Para's - so I went with what worked.

---

ps - I have an opportunity to pick up an HK USP expert in .45 with a green laser attached for $670 - do you think this is a good deal? It comes used, with two mags and the original box.
 
JohnnyEgo said:
Honestly, for 2 legged predators in a conventional urban environment, anything at or above .38 Spl +P will give you plenty of stopping power. What will make the difference is reliability, capacity, speed of follow up, and of course, aim.

If you don't do a lot of shooting, you may find both .357 Sig and .40 S&W to be a bit 'snappy'. A 9mm with quality self defense loads will do 90% or more of what a .40 will do in terms of damage. It's softer shooting, meaning your follow up rate will likely be quicker. And it's cheap to shoot, meaning you are more likely to practice and thus more likely to hit.

Go with what you feel most comfortable with. I wouldn't want a 9mm against a feral pig, but I'm very comfortable with it against a human aggressor.
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I do a little bit of shooting, more than most, but not as much as you guys.

The whole recoil/carry debate is all fine and dandy, but I'm looking for the heaviest grain possible without going into a full-out .45ACP.

It's common sense that in a pistol a round should fly fast enough to fragment, and be heavy enough to act as a decent FMJ, since JHP aren't 100% reliable.

That's the reason the .45ACP 230 was used for so long in the military. Momentum is key.

A lot of ammunition I come across is fast and light, the complete opposite of the basic rule of thumb when it comes to measuring ability to incapacitate a target.

I figured either a superfast .357SIG would mushroom like a motherfucker, or a .40 would be a step down from the weighty .45, but it apparently isn't that simple.

Recoil can be managed with practice. A heavy gun is still a burden to carry around everywhere.


DammitBoy said:
ps - I have an opportunity to pick up an HK USP expert in .45 with a green laser attached for $670 - do you think this is a good deal? It comes used, with two mags and the original box.
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Dude, you gotta be joking. $670 with laser?

The USP .45 is probably one of the best .45s that are made.
 
DammitBoy said:
JohnnyEgo said:
I don't know if you looked back a couple of pages or not, but I got a Paraordnance P16 converted from .40 to 10mm - it's just another play pretty though - not a daily carry or backwoods gun.

I looked hard at glocks, but the grip felt very slippery and small to me and I've been very pleased with my other Para's - so I went with what worked.

---

ps - I have an opportunity to pick up an HK USP expert in .45 with a green laser attached for $670 - do you think this is a good deal? It comes used, with two mags and the original box.
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Sorry, I missed it. I have to say that the 20 frame is huge-normous. I feel like I need meat hooks to hold the damned thing. It's easily wider then your Para doublestack and my HK Match, and the ironic part is that it's the Short Frame model. Comparatively, the Gen 4 G22 frame feels unbelievably smaller. I'm certain that it's necessary due to the bulk of the slide and the robust nature of 10mm, but it feels like a bigger gun then it is.

As to the HK Expert, if I could get one for $670 in good shape, I'd jump on it. I paid $1100 for my Expert in 40 when they first became available, and $900 for my Expert in 9mm a few years ago. They are great shooting guns. Aside from the OTAL and a couple other high end folks, I can't think of anyone who is making a weapon mounted green laser worth a crap, but the gun itself is certainly worth $670 if in decent condition.

Since this is more or less a picture thread:

experta.jpg


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))<>(( said:
I do a little bit of shooting, more than most, but not as much as you guys.

The whole recoil/carry debate is all fine and dandy, but I'm looking for the heaviest grain possible without going into a full-out .45ACP.

It's common sense that in a pistol a round should fly fast enough to fragment, and be heavy enough to act as a decent FMJ, since JHP aren't 100% reliable.

That's the reason the .45ACP 230 was used for so long in the military. Momentum is key.

A lot of ammunition I come across is fast and light, the complete opposite of the basic rule of thumb when it comes to measuring ability to incapacitate a target.

I figured either a superfast .357SIG would mushroom like a motherfucker, or a .40 would be a step down from the weighty .45, but it apparently isn't that simple.

Recoil can be managed with practice. A heavy gun is still a burden to carry around everywhere.
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Without meaning to sound harsh, you sound like you've done a lot of 'research', by which I mean looking at cool sites on the internet. The US Government used ball ammo because that is what the 1911 was designed for, what was commonly available, and in the post WWII era, required by the Geneva convention. At least since the 80s, pretty much everyone else has switched to JHP as the handgun ammunition of choice for the majority of situations encountered. FMJ has a nasty habit of over-penetrating, which doesn't give it sufficient time to deposit all of that energy in the body you intended, and can have unintended liability consequences as well.

Commercial JHP has been consistent and reliable for a long time now, and considerably more effective on humans then FMJ. As to the fragmentation issue, a smaller bullet pushed at high speed is likely to shatter on contact with bone or other hard surfaces. Sometimes, this is a good characteristic, but not always. A heavy bullet is less likely to fragment on contact with bone, often delivering greater wounding potential by imparting more of it's energy on a concentrated area.

My reading comprehension isn't always fantastic, but your line about "It's common sense that in a pistol a round should fly fast enough to fragment, and be heavy enough to act as a decent FMJ, since JHP aren't 100% reliable." is self contradictory at best. I'm just not certain what exactly you are trying to get at.

However, I will make my best attempt to answer your question. You stated that .45 ACP is out. For what remains of the commonly available commercial calibers, the largest grain weight you are going to get in an auto loading pistol is some flavor of 200gr FMJ or JHP in .40 caliber, pushed to a maximum of around 1100 fps out of a service sized pistol.

It will be a hot loading. You can go hotter and heavier in 10mm and .44 Mag, but I do not consider the former a commonly available commercial caliber, and the later in an auto loader is neither common nor well suited for concealed carry.

The hottest heavy .357 Sig commercially available loading that I am aware of is the DoubleTap 147gr JHP being pushed 1250 fps from a service size pistol.
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What I meant by the statement involving JHP fragmenting, is that larger caliber rounds are basically better JHP than smaller ones.

Anyways, THANK YOU!

That was the information I was looking for, but couldn't get anywhere.


So, I guess I'll have to go test the Glock 22 and see if I like it or not.

I've fired a Glock 17 once and I thought it was a bit awkward.

I would love a USP .40, but that's an expensive buy ATM.
 
The above reminds me of the fact that my father picks up his new Labrador puppy today. He has decided to name it 'Remington', which kind of sucks for me, because that was going to be my next boy's middle name. I suppose I'll just have to settle for 'WinMag'.
 
for .357SIG to be a gimmick, quite a few people have adopted it. Secret Service, several state police's, and what not. There's a big list at the bottom of the wikipedia page.

frankly it's still gonna kill somebody dead if you shoot 'em in the right spot
 
Well, that's what you'd call a good guard dog, DammitBoy.

Wintermind said:
for .357SIG to be a gimmick, quite a few people have adopted it. Secret Service, several state police's, and what not. There's a big list at the bottom of the wikipedia page.
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Gimmick:
an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, especially one designed to attract attention or increase appeal.
to equip or embellish with unnecessary features, especially in order to increase salability, acceptance, etc. (often followed by up ): to gimmick up a sports car with chrome and racing stripes.

Acceptance does not make a gimmick any less gimmicky. ;)
Wintermind said:
frankly it's still gonna kill somebody dead if you shoot 'em in the right spot
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Of course a .357Sig is goddamn lethal. But are there more upside than downsides over 130gr and 147gr 9x19mm?
I would expect it to even out. In my eyes, the 9x19mm does just fine with proper ammo.
 
JohnnyEgo said:
The above reminds me of the fact that my father picks up his new Labrador puppy today. He has decided to name it 'Remington', which kind of sucks for me, because that was going to be my next boy's middle name. I suppose I'll just have to settle for 'WinMag'.
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You could always use "Taurus", or "Winchester".

Stoner, Likened to Eugene Stoner.

Or maybe Kalashnikov, but that might not suit your family.




Speaking of the Secret Service and other adopted pistols, I was reminded that the FBI's HRT, or America's Super-Hero Team, conducted a long and rigorous test for finding a sidearm that met their high standards as a decent sidearm.

Funny, the only gun that fit the bill was the good ol 1911 .45ACP

Springfield FBI custom, a civilian replica exist called the "Professional"




Is going retro a bad thing?

SA_1911_FBI_Custom_Light_Rail_PC9111LR_A.jpg



Price? $2395
 
JohnnyEgo said:
The above reminds me of the fact that my father picks up his new Labrador puppy today. He has decided to name it 'Remington', which kind of sucks for me, because that was going to be my next boy's middle name. I suppose I'll just have to settle for 'WinMag'.
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Alternates:

Colt
Ithaca
Savage
Kimber
Olympus
Bushmaster :wiggle:
Winchester
Rossi
Taurus
Sigsauer
Ruger
Bersa
Thompson
Glock
 
DammitBoy said:
JohnnyEgo said:
The above reminds me of the fact that my father picks up his new Labrador puppy today. He has decided to name it 'Remington', which kind of sucks for me, because that was going to be my next boy's middle name. I suppose I'll just have to settle for 'WinMag'.
Click to expand...

Alternates:

Colt
Ithaca
Savage
Kimber
Olympus
Bushmaster :wiggle:
Winchester
Rossi
Taurus
Sigsauer
Ruger
Bersa
Thompson
Glock
Click to expand...

I'd only name my kid after something I really liked, so a lot of those are out. [;)] Although I have thought of both Barrett and Kimber if I have a little girl. Or maybe Fabrique.

pccompb.jpg


pccompa.jpg


Smith, Wesson, and Kevlar (rescue kitty that had been shot) have already been claimed by my sister and her husband.

))<>(( said:
Springfield FBI custom, a civilian replica exist called the "Professional"

Is going retro a bad thing?

Price? $2395
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It's the nicest gun Springfield makes. Well worth the price tag. You should google Nighthawk, Wilson, and Ed Brown for semi customs in that price range. Then google 'Rogers Precision' and be prepared for a two year wait for anything you want.

They are very nice guns.
 
PainlessDocM said:
Noob question: what is the purpose of that hole under the barrel of that Magnum?
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It's for a series of weights and spacers that run most of the length of the barrel. It's designed to allow you to tune the weight and balance of the revolver to the load you are shooting from it.
 
DammitBoy said:
$2395.00 for one pistol is just crazytalk in my opinion.
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First, the parts that the pistol comes with, at their retail (non FFL) prices:

Wilson ambi safety- $30.00
Wilson beavertail grip safety $35.00
Wilson Bulletproof extractor $27.00
Wilson BP Slidestop $35.00
S&A Magwell $80.00
King’s trigger $18.50
Nowlin match barrel & bushing $190.00
Novak sights/Trijicon inserts $225.00
Metalform mags (6 @ 27.50 ea) $165.00
Ti Firing Pin .45 $17.95
FP stop $12.00
Black-T finish entire pistol $175.00
Wolff recoil spring 18.5# $6.50
GI plug $7.00
GI guide $15.00
Cocobolo stocks $30.00
Grip screws and bushings $10.00
Hammer, sear, disconnector, strut $150.00
Plunger tube, plungers, spring $20.00

Hmm, that’s about $1200…

Now let’s shop for a slide and frame.

McCormick- nonfitted $517.00
Baer (fitted) $818.35

So let’s figure on maybe $650.00 for a carbon steel Springfield forged slide and frame, with the rails and other machine work done at the Custom Shop. Probably lowball, but that’s OK.

Now we’re at around $1800.00.

But wait…

Checker front strap 30 LPI $150.00
Carry bevel entire pistol $50.00
Lower & flare ejector port $45.00
Tune extractor $25.00
Polish feed ramp and throat bbl $45.00
Bevel and polish magwell $45.00
Internal pistol deburr $45.00
Install and match beavertail $55.00

Bringing us to $2260…. Oh, and we still need to actually fit that barrel and bushing to the pistol, bead blast the outside surfaces for the Black-T job, and do some other miscellaneous stuff.

Did I miss something, or does it now seem like $2000 is ..dare I say it… a bargain ?


For more fun, I found the FBI's report on ditching their own .40S&W & 9mm standard loads, returning to .45ACP, and the adoption of the 1911 FBI

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_144_24/ai_57886947/
 
))<>(( said:
DammitBoy said:
$2395.00 for one pistol is just crazytalk in my opinion.
Click to expand...


First, the parts that the pistol comes with, at their retail (non FFL) prices:

Wilson ambi safety- $30.00
Wilson beavertail grip safety $35.00
Wilson Bulletproof extractor $27.00
Wilson BP Slidestop $35.00
S&A Magwell $80.00
King’s trigger $18.50
Nowlin match barrel & bushing $190.00
Novak sights/Trijicon inserts $225.00
Metalform mags (6 @ 27.50 ea) $165.00
Ti Firing Pin .45 $17.95
FP stop $12.00
Black-T finish entire pistol $175.00
Wolff recoil spring 18.5# $6.50
GI plug $7.00
GI guide $15.00
Cocobolo stocks $30.00
Grip screws and bushings $10.00
Hammer, sear, disconnector, strut $150.00
Plunger tube, plungers, spring $20.00

Hmm, that’s about $1200…

Now let’s shop for a slide and frame.

McCormick- nonfitted $517.00
Baer (fitted) $818.35

So let’s figure on maybe $650.00 for a carbon steel Springfield forged slide and frame, with the rails and other machine work done at the Custom Shop. Probably lowball, but that’s OK.

Now we’re at around $1800.00.

But wait…

Checker front strap 30 LPI $150.00
Carry bevel entire pistol $50.00
Lower & flare ejector port $45.00
Tune extractor $25.00
Polish feed ramp and throat bbl $45.00
Bevel and polish magwell $45.00
Internal pistol deburr $45.00
Install and match beavertail $55.00

Bringing us to $2260…. Oh, and we still need to actually fit that barrel and bushing to the pistol, bead blast the outside surfaces for the Black-T job, and do some other miscellaneous stuff.

Did I miss something, or does it now seem like $2000 is ..dare I say it… a bargain ?
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Anybody who wants to blow over two grand on one pistol is more than welcome to do so - it won't be me.

I find it difficult to believe a $2400 pistol is twice as good as a $1200 pistol.

$2400 to me means a great Bennelli M1 super 90 semi-auto shotgun, a custom Wilson Combat Para 10mm conversion and several hundred rounds of ammo for both.

shotgun - $900
pistol - $1000
ammo - $500

Just my personal opinion, you results may vary...
 
It's like anything else in life. The value is in what you're willing to pay for it.

A Ford Mustang and a Ford Fiesta are both cars. They both perform the same basic functions well, and in day-to-day driving, there probably isn't much functional advantage to either one, except that the Fiesta gets better gas mileage. And yet, the Mustang continues to sell quite well, despite costing considerably more than a Fiesta. It appeals to people who understand or desire what differentiates it from the masses of Corollas, Fiestas, and the entire Kia lineup.

The truth is that if you can't or don't appreciate the hand fitting and attention to detail that go with a semi or full custom gun, then they truly are not worth the money to you. In a gun on which might hang the balance of my life, I am not hesitant to spend the money on the individual attention instead of hoping that whatever batch my handgun came from was in accord with random quality control standards.
 
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