The Guns and Ammo Thread

[DammitBoy]

The truth is that if you can't or don't appreciate the hand fitting and attention to detail that go with a semi or full custom gun, then they truly are not worth the money to you. In a gun on which might hang the balance of my life, I am not hesitant to spend the money on the individual attention instead of hoping that whatever batch my handgun came from was in accord with random quality control standards.

I hear you and certainly agree, to an extent. A $1200 pistol cannot be fairly compared to a Ford Fiesta though. Maybe a $200 pistol. A more apt comparision in the automotive vein, would be something like a Viper vs a Lamborgini. Both are higher end vehicles, but one is outrageously priced no matter how well it performs.

I'm not saying the hand fitting isn't wonderful, I'm sure they're great guns - hell, if I had money to burn I'd probably buy several.

I'm also not depending on random quality control. My guns get commonsense upgrades that help them perform better, and I make sure all the burrs and such get eliminated from the ones I depend on.

What I am saying is, if a guy can get the best tactical shotgun in the world and a very decent pistol, plus ammo for both - he's doing himself one better than just owning a really really nice boutique gun.

You know how the saying goes, "A pistol is just a way to get to your long gun." Kinda hard to do if you blow all your cash on the pistol.

 

[Deleted member 53669]

[Intelligence] So basically, if you want those types of custom upgrades, it would be more economical to do them yourself and deduce your own specifications.

 

[JohnnyEgo]

[Intelligence] So basically, if you want those types of custom upgrades, it would be more economical to do them yourself and deduce your own specifications.

It's an art and a skill, with the emphasis on 'art'. Particularly fitting parts on a 1911. Doesn't take much of a slip of a file to ruin a part or make the gun unsafe. Fitting a beaver-tail is a good example. You can do it yourself, but if you end up cutting the radii wrong, you have an ugly looking semi-functional gun at best, and a wasted $300 frame at worst. Likewise with fitting any of the fire control parts, clearance and fitting a barrel, or tightening up slide-to-frame fit. It can all be done, but if you mess it up, things get dangerous and expensive.

I have absolute faith that my Ed Brown will go bang every time I pull the trigger. I was certain the day I picked it up that it had been hand fitted and thoroughly tested before it ever made it's way into my hot little hands. I still did not start carrying it until I had put a few hundred rounds through it, but I have a very high degree of faith that it is a very reliable firearm. That extra peace of mind was well worth the premium. Plus it looks really pretty.

 

[DammitBoy]

Johnny's right, gunsmithing should be left to good gunsmiths. I also agree that Ed Brown 1911's are works of art. I've also been on plenty of firearm forums where you'll hear plenty of negative comments on Ed Brown 1911's. Everybody has their own likes and dislikes.

My point of view here, on this forum - where most guys don't own a lot of guns or even have the opportunity to own any guns - is to take baby steps.

I have absolute faith that my Para P14 .45 will go bang every time I pull the trigger. It's my daily carry, so it damn well better. It is not necessary to spend $2400 to have a reliable 1911 that performs well. I don't have to wonder, because I put 400 rounds through it each month.

My advice to anyone starting out is get yourself the best you can afford, without hurting your finances. You should have a shotgun, a rifle, and a service pistol that are all designed for self-defense applications. After that, whatever you get is whatever you feel like getting.

Collectibles, oddities, rare birds, stupidly overpowered, shooting sports related firearms are all fun - but they are not self-defense weapons. Some of the stuff I own has no rhyme or reason beyond the "I wanted that" factor. Some are not even shootable.

*shrugs*

To each their own, but it's just common sense to start with the basics. Of course, as you get older and have more funds to play with - you can always upgrade!

Speaking of dumb overpowered firearms with no rhyme or reason for me owning them;

What? Doesn't everybody need a 2" snubby in .454 casull?

 

[Wintermind]

You're going to talk about expensive custom guns and not bring up Holland and Holland? Hundred thousand odd dollars for a shotgun and maybe around twice that for a rifle?

 

[JohnnyEgo]

Speaking of dumb overpowered firearms with no rhyme or reason for me owning them;

What? Doesn't everybody need a 2" snubby in .454 casull?

That's got to be a bit of a wrist twister. Although I'd still rather shoot a cylinder or two through it then my 340PD with +P loads.

I understand you can shoot .45LC through a .454 chamber. Have you tried it? Any softer shooting?

 

[DammitBoy]

Speaking of dumb overpowered firearms with no rhyme or reason for me owning them;

What? Doesn't everybody need a 2" snubby in .454 casull?

That's got to be a bit of a wrist twister. Although I'd still rather shoot a cylinder or two through it then my 340PD with +P loads.

I understand you can shoot .45LC through a .454 chamber. Have you tried it? Any softer shooting?

Surprisingly not that bad, compared to what I'd heard from the dramaqueens (YOU'LL PUT YER EYE OUT!)

Don't ask me how, but most of the recoil pushes directly back into your palm, even with the seriously heavy loads. It does numb the palm of your hand for about 6-7 hours though. Ruger claims it's the design of the hogue grip.

I've shot a scandium with .357 factory +p loads, I'd call it a close tie with the scandium being a little worse. I handed it right back to the owner after three shots and said, "No thanks."

45 longcolt is a pussycat, even heavier custom loads - it's still a fairly large framed heavy revolver, even with the rest of the barrel cut off. I usually practice with 45 longcolt cowboy loads.

I did figure out a use for it though. I decided to carry it as my backup when wild boar hunting. In case I get treed or overrun with a crowd of angry piggies. These days, I've been hunting hawgs with my Ruger Blackhawk 7.5" barrel in 45 longcolt, so it makes sense to back up the single action sixgun with a little insurance.

Around these parts, an average adult male boar will run 200-350lbs of mean angry smart n nasty:

 

[Little Robot]

Wow, I didn't even know that wild boar hunting was a thing in America. I guess that all I see are the hunters who love to hunt deer. Those boars are very intelligent/dangerous, correct? Does hunting them with a gun take away from the danger?

I'm sure that you've posted this before in the thread, but how many guns do you own total? How much money would you estimate that you've spent on guns and ammo over the years?

 

[JohnnyEgo]

Wow, I didn't even know that wild boar hunting was a thing in America. I guess that all I see are the hunters who love to hunt deer. Those boars are very intelligent/dangerous, correct? Does hunting them with a gun take away from the danger?

I'm sure that you've posted this before in the thread, but how many guns do you own total? How much money would you estimate that you've spent on guns and ammo over the years?

America has a huge feral pig problem. They are basically escaped domesticated pigs that have returned to a feral state, and then bread with other pigs to produce a wild boar that is genetically identical to a domesticated one. They breed fast and they are very smart, tough, and dangerous. The environmental and agricultural damage they cause is quite costly as well. As such, they are considered nuisance animals in most states, and have far fewer restrictions for hunting then other species.

The state where I am from supports their elimination by almost any means not deemed excessively cruel. This includes hunting by all manner of weapons; guns, spears, and bows amongst others. There is also no limit on the numbers you can take on private property. Even so, we still face considerable over-population problems.

As to numbers and amounts spent on guns, that can be a bit of an impolite question in my social circles, akin to asking how much you make at your job or how much you paid for your house. I'm certain that wasn't your intent, but I wanted to let you know why you may not get much of a reply. I will tell you that I have more handguns and rifles then I have hands to hold them.

This page has a lot of text and not a lot of pictures.

 

[Little Robot]

As to numbers and amounts spent on guns, that can be a bit of an impolite question in my social circles, akin to asking how much you make at your job or how much you paid for your house. I'm certain that wasn't your intent, but I wanted to let you know why you may not get much of a reply. I will tell you that I have more handguns and rifles then I have hands to hold them.

Oops, no intent to offend. Sorry.

The feral pig stuff is interesting-- I don't recall hearing about it in any of the states in which I've lived, so it must be pretty regional. The only wild boar hunting about which I've heard is medieval stuff, so it's interesting that it's still going on. Pigs are smart animals.

 

[JohnnyEgo]

No offense taken, so have no worries.

Here is some light reading about the US feral pig problem. They are surprisingly adaptable in terms of climate and environment.

 

[DammitBoy]

Wow, I didn't even know that wild boar hunting was a thing in America. I guess that all I see are the hunters who love to hunt deer. Those boars are very intelligent/dangerous, correct? Does hunting them with a gun take away from the danger?

I'm sure that you've posted this before in the thread, but how many guns do you own total? How much money would you estimate that you've spent on guns and ammo over the years?

Boar hunting is about as close as you get to lion country safari in the U.S. - especially in the southeast where I'm located. Bear hunting might be close, but I understand they'd rather run away while boar love to run right at you. Too much fun. There are times when you feel outgunned and outsmarted by wild boar. Some nuts hunt them with knives. You will not hear about me trying that.

Scroll back a couple of pages and you'll see a mostly updated list of what I have right now. I have no idea how much I've spent over the decades on firearms. Partly because I'm old and feeble-minded, partly because I've done a lot of trading and buying/selling over the years. I had a policy of always trading up in value and only selling if I could make a profit. Now my policy is don't trade or sell anything ever. So the collection is always growing. I'm sure part of me wants to have no idea.

America has a huge feral pig problem. They are basically escaped domesticated pigs that have returned to a feral state, and then bread with other pigs to produce a wild boar that is genetically identical to a domesticated one. They breed fast and they are very smart, tough, and dangerous.

As to numbers and amounts spent on guns, that can be a bit of an impolite question in my social circles, akin to asking how much you make at your job or how much you paid for your house. [/img]

The hogs in this area have had a lot of russian boar and arkansas razorback introduced into the gene pool by lodge owners who want an off season hunting market. Brilliant, huh? The largest black boar I've seen taken was 627lbs by my wifes uncle about 56 miles from here. That was one big meanass pig.

Appreciate the thought about impolite questions, but it doesn't bother me in the least. I'd rather they didn't think a certain number of firearms or ammo meant something sinister as the media would portray.

Love your website by the way! Good stuff. Can't lie, I drooled over some of your woodwork stuff as well as your gun collection.

 

[JohnnyEgo]

I appreciate the compliments. I haven't updated the site in over a year. I mostly use it as an image host. One of these days, I'll get off my butt and update both parts of it.

Between woodworking, guns, and photography, it's hard to say which is the most expensive hobby. The bad thing is that my peer group at work is pressuring me to get into golf, which seems like an even bigger money pit.

 

[DammitBoy]

The bad thing is that my peer group at work is pressuring me to get into golf, which seems like an even bigger money pit.

You need a better set of peers. Golf is beyond boring.

Now, if they let you shoot the ball...

---

ps - I think I have about as much money in woodworking tools/equipment as I do guns. Maybe.

 

[.Pixote.]

I think I have about as much money in woodworking tools/equipment as I do guns. Maybe.

Ok DammitBoy - I want to see a photo of some of these woodworking tools/equipment (maybe a new thread), because I love that sort of stuff. And to help avoid the admin spanking me - here's a big gun.

 

[SuAside]

I've been on the verge of buying a Sphinx 3000, so yeah, I've got some experience with uberexpensive guns.
I couldn't get over the mental barrier of paying more for a handgun than I did for my Sig 551 SB. But some day... I might. Most I've spent on a single handgun has been 1250 euros.

Right now, I'm actually contemplating to buy a Glock 17 Gen 4 as a beater pistol for fun (and some IPSC). Quite the other side of the spectrum.

I find it difficult to believe a $2400 pistol is twice as good as a $1200 pistol.

Money spent on guns for extra 'quality' has severely diminishing returns.

Taurus < Ruger < S&W 686 (vanilla) < Manurhin MR-73 or S&W 686 Custom Shop < Korth < Janz for example.

You'll pay many times the price of an S&W for a Janz. It will indeed be better, but will you as a shooter see a lot of difference? Probably not, unless you're an olympic level shooter.
Can you however enjoy the quality it affords you? Sure.
Mostly, it will be a status symbol however.

 

[DammitBoy]

You'll pay many times the price of an S&W for a Janz. It will indeed be better, but will you as a shooter see a lot of difference? Probably not, unless you're an olympic level shooter.
Can you however enjoy the quality it affords you? Sure.
Mostly, it will be a status symbol however.

Then why does Jerry Miculek shoot a S&W 627 if the Janz is better? In case you didn't know, Mr. Miculek holds these titles:

• Five time USPSA 3-Gun National Championship
• Four time 2nd Chance Bowling Pin Champion
• 1997 American Handgunner World Shoot-Off Champion (The only person to ever win this title with a revolver.)
• Eighteen time International Revolver Champion
• Member of five time winning pro team at the Sportsmans Team Challenge
• Three time Masters International Long Gun Champion
• Three time USPSA National Revolver Champion
• Two time IPSC World Revolver Champion

I think I'd go with what the best revolver shooter in the world uses. Apparently most competitors agree - in the last competition I watched, 237 out of 238 used a S&W and the other person used a Ruger.

 

[Kilus]

In Australia you send a couple of dogs against a pig then you run up and stick it with a knife.

Guns are for Kangaroos.

 

[SuAside]

Then why does Jerry Miculek shoot a S&W 627 if the Janz is better? In case you didn't know, Mr. Miculek holds these titles:

Oh, I know him and admire him. The prime reason is quite the same as to why Todd Jarrett shoots ParaOrd. Money.

Furthermore, why don't they use a Lamborghini LM for the Dakar? Why doesn't a cop use a Sphinx 3000?

Stupid question, really. And one meant to troll, I suspect.
Especially since Miculek is known for speed shooting, and as such the difference would be minimal. But of course, for less talented shooters such as ourselves, "better" guns do offer advantages. If they're worth the premium is something else altogether. I don't see how you can actually argue a Janz isn't better & more qualitative (more like overengineered) than an S&W. Try a full double load in your S&W and find out, I'd say.

 

[DammitBoy]

Miculek is known for speed shooting, and as such the difference would be minimal. But of course, for less talented shooters such as ourselves, "better" guns do offer advantages.

I don't see how you can actually argue a Janz isn't better & more qualitative (more like overengineered) than an S&W. Try a full double load in your S&W and find out, I'd say.

Miculek is known for speed and incredible accuracy.

I argue that the best shooters in the world, who shoot hundreds of thousands of rounds every year - don't use the Janz. They use the S&W. They say (not me) no other gun can handle the punishment that they put their S&W 627's through.

I say, I'll take their advice and expertise over your opinion. I'm sorry if this offends you and leads you into ranting about trolling and me being stupid. Again, sorry, but I'll go with real world experience and results as opposed to what you have read about.

For what it's worth, I don't own a S&W nor do I plan on buying one anyime soon. If I did - I'd seek out the opinion of expert worldclass shooters, not base my purchase on what I could read about on the internet.