The Guns and Ammo Thread

.Pixote. said:
How is it that the bullets are so broken, have all ready penetrated something? What is this mysterious thing?

The picture DB posted shows penetration, expansion, and wound cavity characteristics of assorted rounds of common ammunition in ballistic gelatin.

Most rounds designed to deal with humans and animals will deform at some point on or after impact. As the bullet deforms, it cuts a wider wound path and slows down considerably, imparting more of it's kinetic energy to the body as it travels. That imparting of energy is what makes the wound cavities you see.

The last one is a joke playing on the common myth of the raw destructive power of the 10mm. 10mm is very fast, containing a lot of energy. The picture is meant to imply that it will cause an explosion in anything it hits. 10mm also has a pretty stiff recoil. Plenty of folks hear about it and think that it is 'too powerful to shoot'. In reality, it's about as strong recoil wise as a snappy .40, and certainly no worse then many other calibers.

Finally, smaller bullets moving at higher speed tend to shatter or fragment on impact with bone, etc. You want a round that will deform (mushroom) at some point after it penetrates what you strike, and still have it travel deep enough to hit something vital. A different type of bullet, like a solid ball, doesn't tend to deform much, and is therefore more likely to travel right through the target, taking much of it's energy with it. A lighter bullet at higher speed might shatter on striking bone, dissipating much of it's energy at a shallow penetration. This is why most folks outside of the military use some flavor of 'hollow point' bullet, which will penetrate and expand.
 
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Some examples of hollowpoints and the way they expand upon impact.
 
I may be going to shoot guns today <smile>

My boss's husband is a gun owner and has CCW etc. and invited me over for a BBQ. Guns were brought up as activities.

It has been hard working at this new job for 5 months without admitting that I own guns (it is not something that I blab about at work)

WPD
 
DB could you suggest a gun for me to fire?

I've never shot a gun before and have had a serious craving (how does one crave what he does not know I'm not sure) to fire one. I was thinking a hand gun as opposed to a rifle to begin with, but then you're the resident gun expert. Can I go to a local gun range and give firing a gun a try without having a license? I live in Canada, not sure if you're versed in our gun laws but you likely know more then I. I would like to hear what you have to suggest, thanks for the time.
 
It's a pain in the arse that you need a fire arm certificate over here , my step dad has one, and lets me 'play' with most of his stuff, though he's an antique dealer so suffice to say no modern rifles :wink: Still fun to blow things apart with a musket from time to time! In fact, the only gun he has that is anything like the stuff in this thread is a Beretta g17, similar to the g19 + g20 that Ego posted a bit ago.

You guys have some beautiful fire arms :ok:

EDIT: talking out my arse, he has a Glock 17.
 
Dirk Magirk said:
DB could you suggest a gun for me to fire?

I was thinking a hand gun as opposed to a rifle to begin with, but then you're the resident gun expert. I would like to hear what you have to suggest, thanks for the time.

Thanks, but I'd say johnnyego is the gun expert around here, I'm just a gun nut.

First, find out about the laws in your country. How old are you? In the U.S. it's 18 for long guns (rifles) and 21 for handguns. You want official govt. guidelines/booklets on the rules and regulations. Once you know them, don't break them.

You can go to a gunshop or a gunrange and ask questions. Don't be discouraged if they treat you with disdain for being a noob - it's pretty common among gunshop 'experts'.

Look for a training and safety course with classes you can attend. try to find somebody you know who owns firearms who is willing to encourage your involvement and will let you try out some different kinds of firearms.

Start out with a small caliber if possible - specifically a .22 handgun or .22 rifle. When I took Kharn and friends to a gunrange, I gave a safety talk first and we started out with the smallest caliber first. I also explained the history of the firearms we shot and how the mechanism of the gun worked and how they evolved, because I think that's an important aspect of enjoying firearms.

I started with a bolt action .22 target rifle with my older brother taking me to an NRA safety class. I started my kids out with a semi-auto .22 pistol.

Small calibers are best to help learn control without recoil and a loud report from the muzzle blast to distract or scare a beginner.
 
I frequently give initiations to novices and welcome them into the fold. :)
I usually use a 9x19mm (Sphinx or Sig X-Five), a .22LR (Beretta 87 Target) and a .357Mag with hot loads (MR-73) to give people a taste of shooting handguns.

But any gun will do if you've never fired a gun before Dirk. Just as long as it's not ridiculously oversized (S&W .460 or such monstrocities) and you're properly told how to handle it, it doesn't matter if you're shooting a Glock, Beretta, Sig Sauer, Smith & Wessen, whatever. Just remember that there's a huge variety of weapons out there. If you don't like Glocks doesn't mean that you won't like a Sig.

Overall, you should try to either talk to someone near you that you know irl (or online) that is into firearms or just contact an organization that's into teaching new folks (NRA, etc). You could also go to a range that rents guns, but be sure to pick one that does proper introductions instead of "this end points that way when you pull the trigger, have fun".
 
Novices should always be trained in basic firearm safety with a small caliber like the .22 to avoid ruining their ability to fire without flinching. How you start out is very important. Technique is much more important to proper gun handling than showing off your guns.

Starting with a .357 magnum with hotloads is just plain stupid. I see morons do this to women at a range all the time. They think it's funny to watch the reaction to the recoil, the loud report and the muzzleblast. What's not funny is this can easily stop a person from learning at all or cause a problem that you may never be able to untrain. It can also turn off a potentially new member to the shooting sports.

It's kinda hard to untrain a flinch because somebody was an unthinking cocktard with a novice.

Safety glasses and hearing protection should always be provided and required when showing a noob around a firearm.
 
The only time I shot a pistol was at a shooting range in San Francisco. When the guy asked us to choose a weapon, I noticed the 44 magnum on the bench, as well as a number of other semi automatic weapons, 10mm, 9mm, etc. Well I chickened out and grabbed a .22 pistol. I actually felt some fear with this item in my hand, I went into my booth and emptied the clips into the target - actually I hit the bullseye on every attempt, but all the time I couldn't get the idea out of my head that I could easily kill someone with this thing. I think if you have grown up with firearms and have been taught from a young age to understand and respect them, you wouldn't have felt as I did...

The man beside me was firing a silver magnum 357, now that thing was loud. Similar to the one here -

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DammitBoy do you take your kids shooting, and how did you bring them up around firearms?
 
DB is perhaps overly generous in referring to me as an expert, but I appreciate the compliment nonetheless. I have taught basic self defense, firearms safety, and concealed carry classes in a professional capacity over a number of years. My own philosophy is a bit different then Eb's based on the clientele I served.

I agree wholeheartedly that the .22 pistol is the best tool for teaching strong technique and proper fundamentals. However, I rarely start folks out on it for two key reasons. One is that it sets unrealistic expectations for recoil among novice shooters. Pretty much every standard caliber up is going to feel like a substantial increase in recoil. The other issue is that the majority of my market is composed of people who may only own one handgun, and are uninclined to get much practice with it outside of a course. Consequently, a base comfort level with the safe operation of a firearm under stress is more important than strong marksmanship with the folks I taught. For the serious folks, flinch and other bad habits can be overcome with dryfire exercises and live fire drills.

I start most apprehensive folks with a full size .357 with a low recoil .38 special load, like a 148 grain Wadcutter. I do this because revolvers are very simple to operate, and the big gun/low recoil bullet helps sever the notion that a large gun equates to a lot of recoil. Once we get over that initial nervousness and misconception, it's much easier to segue to larger calibers and semi automatics. Again, my purpose is to quickly familiarize novices with the guns they have purchased or are likely to be exposed to, not to make them marksmen.

I agree wholeheartedly with DB that it is a great sin to put an Airweight or any other J-frame .357 with full house loads into the hands of a nervous or inexperienced shooter. The folks who do it out of arrogance, ignorance, or a false sense of machismo deserve to be pistol whipped.

I have several Canadian friends who shoot IPSO in Montreal. There are ranges with rental cases that will allow folks without whatever they call the possession license to shoot. My understanding of the process is that you become a 'member' of the club during the length of the session, or some similar bureaucratic maneuver.

Incidentally, my Canadian friends have many cool guns that I cannot get in this country. They just don't have any full capacity magazines for them.

I've taught children as young as 8, all the way up to a delightfully young 83 year old woman.
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Thanks johnny - awesome post as always and you are the resident expert on this forum. You make excellent points that I didn't think about, because I'm not an expert by any stretch.


.Pixote. said:
I couldn't get the idea out of my head that I could easily kill someone with this thing. I think if you have grown up with firearms and have been taught from a young age to understand and respect them, you wouldn't have felt as I did...

DammitBoy do you take your kids shooting, and how did you bring them up around firearms?

Pix - anybody properly trained should always be thinking that they are holding a potentially deadly weapon. Respect the weapon, but don't fear it.

I brought my kids up around guns exactly like that, respect them, don't fear them. My daughter loves to go shooting and is an incredible natural shot. She started when she was 7 years old and still shoots today. I let her progress at her own pace. She waited until she was 13 to move up in caliber and her favorite pistol is her Ruger SP101 in .357 - I pity the fool that ever makes her need to use it. The girl can shoot out the eyes of a parakeet at 50 yards! :mrgreen:

My son has no interest in guns or shooting whatsoever, which reminds me - I need to go beat his mama, because there ain't no way that boy sprung from my loins! :crazy:
 
Thanks guys, looks like some good info there and I want to give it a proper read - preferably when I'm not feeling the effects of sleep deprivation.

Just wanted to say thanks for responding, and I will be giving a proper reply to your suggestions/information at a later date. Didn't want anyone to think I asked a question and then wandered off into the distance (good lord do I hate when people do that).

Thanks again, proper reading and understanding of the information you've all posted will be done this weekend.
 
Well I've decided on my next purchase. Smith and Wesson 686. I've always wanted a .357, and one with a 6" barrel would be good. The price is pretty good. .38 for targets and the .357 for cougar defense when walking the trails in the mountains. Maybe splurge on some .357 just to pop off some more powerful rounds on occasion.

Also, the Beretta is fun for beginners. It's a very natural feeling gun and ammo is not too shabby in price.

Edit: Also also, get to pick up the 20 gauge from my aunties house soon.

Edit+1:
JohnnyEgo said:
Good to hear it. They are beautiful guns. I just can't shoot them worth a damn.

Those grip stocks are very pretty. You going to leave them on, or swap them?

Sorry, didn't mean to ignore your question. Been working alot so my NMA visits are drive by's these days. I did swap them. At my dad's recommendation I put the walnut grips in a velvet bag in the lock box.
 
Can't go wrong with a S&W 686... That said, I feel the sweet spot for a revolver lies around 5", not 6". For extended shooting sessions anyway.
DammitBoy said:
Novices should always be trained in basic firearm safety with a small caliber like the .22 to avoid ruining their ability to fire without flinching. How you start out is very important. Technique is much more important to proper gun handling than showing off your guns.

Starting with a .357 magnum with hotloads is just plain stupid. I see morons do this to women at a range all the time. They think it's funny to watch the reaction to the recoil, the loud report and the muzzleblast.
Actually, no. Not at all.

I always fell into the same trap as you. I always had novices shoot the .22LR first, then move up to 9x19mm and then maybe something tough like .357Mag or even .44Mag for kicks when I thought they were ready.

But no more. I will still use this tactic when I know someone is still on the fence about shooting or even against shooting (we try to convert antis here).
But if they've expressed serious interest in shooting and have shown that they are enthousiastic about it, I start them off with .357Mag (usually 5 rounds, hot by american standards). I then move over to 9x19mm, which suddenly seems easy as pie and they love it. And then .22LR which is just plinking all out. (moving back & forth as they feel like it, let them choose)

Why have I switched the routine around? Well, my 'mentor' suggested it. He's a qualified initiator, examinator and IPSC trainer. He's shared his hobby with countless of novices, so I took his word for it and gave it a try. And he was right. Turns out that ESPECIALLY the women appreciate the starting off with the hot .357Mag (after proper explanation and perhaps use of snapcaps first if necessary).

You're mistaking my "hot .357Mag" for some asshat who pushes a weapon into a woman's hands and lets her shoot without even explaining to her how to hold the damn thing.
DammitBoy said:
It's kinda hard to untrain a flinch because somebody was an unthinking cocktard with a novice.
Regardless of starting with .22LR in the shooting session, people will flinch. You can try to prepare them for it, but they will to some extent. How much depends as much on the preparation and the person as it does on the calibre used to start the session.

Quite frankly, I've seen more people flinch when starting off with .22LR (they start flinching at 9x19mm and higher), whereas when you start bigger, the flinching virtually disappears as you progress. But again, this is more due to preparation and the person itself than due to the calibre shot.
DammitBoy said:
Safety glasses and hearing protection should always be provided and required when showing a noob around a firearm.
They are always required... Not only when dealing with noobs.

I've got light damage to my right eye while wearing glasses (and a cap & earpro). Case extracted with still some burning propellant in it, got flung out, bounced off the cap and behind my glasses (they were normal glasses not close fitting wrap-arounds).

Very unlucky, but just goes to show: always take precautions and even then it's never totally safe.

Now, I don't have a problem with the damage to the eye. It's just a slightly blurry spot that comes into view when my eyes get tired (i suspect it's the outer protective membrane that's damaged and when my eyes get tired the membrane is not pulled as tight as it should be, causing the slightly damaged spot to drift into view).
 
This thread needs more gun porn:

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This is a .50 calibre Howdah pistol form the early 1800's (blackpowder) - I think it sold at auction for around $25,000.00 (us). I do not own it, but would love to have it, I'm a freak for damascus steel.

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Davide Pedersoli, an italian firm, makes a very nice replica of a howdah pistol - that sells for about $600 (us) at some point I will probably buy one.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/chisiamo.asp?l=en

Very beautiful firearms at very reasonable prices.
 
That's pretty cool-- I know that there are a lot of antique gun shops in the French Quarter (well, at least a couple). Have you ever checked those out when in New Orleans? Or are the guns non-firing/exorbitantly priced?
 
Little Robot said:
That's pretty cool-- I know that there are a lot of antique gun shops in the French Quarter (well, at least a couple). Have you ever checked those out when in New Orleans? Or are the guns non-firing/exorbitantly priced?

New Orleans is a bad place to buy, they cater to tourists who don't mind throwing money away. Not great prices. Online can be very cost effective if you're careful. A good relationship with a decent gun shop/range can help you get better deals.

You can also buy from the government through the CMP program. Gunshows are an opportunity to see a lot of comparable prices and to save shipping charges. You still need to know what you are looking for/at and know current pricing to avoid getting burned.

Online auctions are also a great way to find something less than averge, or even rare guns you didn't have access to before. You can always get carried away with auction bidding though. There are a;so actual brick building live auctions you can go to.

In the U.S. anyway, it's not that difficult to find quality and decent prices. Custom is out there but pricey. Some of the laws make it more difficult for even law abiding regulation following licenced individuals to access. Conflicting variences from state to state and tons of red tape. It's easy to get caught in the web of laws we have if you are not careful. Know your gun laws for city, county, state, and federal - especially if traveling between states.
 
DammitBoy your avatar has lost its muscles. Who is this guy by the way?

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How's this for a flintlock pistol.

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That looks french with a turkish influence, probably from the mid-1700's.

I'm not much into flintlocks, just a shot in the dark - do you have any background info from the auction site for that pistol?
 
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