The Last of Us 2 - Two cowgirls murdering each other's loved ones

Isn't revenge only bad for Ellie? Abby got her revenge and felt pretty swell (and swole).
 
Isn't that a double standard? You can't do a revenge bad plot, but then have a character in the same story get revenge and that being a good thing.
 
It's not a double standard if the standard used is "Piss off the players as much as possible".
 
Eumesmopo said:
You think that the message that "revenge is bad" is deep? Honest question.
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I assume this is a joke question. I mean, literally hundreds of thousands of stories have been written about, "Revenge=Good" vs. "Revenge=Bad" as some of the deepest most profound works of literature in the human canon.

If you can't reduce your point to a single sentence, you also haven't written it very well. Stories fundamental to the human condition and profound are going to be ones that are about our relationship to primal emotions like love, anger, fear, hate, and forgiveness.
 
I mean you could have a story where one person's revenge is foolish while the others' is not and the point of the story could be to contrast the differences in those two desires for revenge. I wouldn't expect TLOU to pull that off in a well done manner though.
 
CT Phipps said:
I assume this is a joke question. I mean, literally hundreds of thousands of stories have been written about, "Revenge=Good" vs. "Revenge=Bad" as some of the deepest most profound works of literature in the human canon.

If you can't reduce your point to a single sentence, you also haven't written it very well. Stories fundamental to the human condition and profound are going to be ones that are about our relationship to primal emotions like love, anger, fear, hate, and forgiveness.
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I mean the message rather than the theme though. By your own words, revenge is bad was the message, was it not?
 
CT Phipps said:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1749602018796696?journalCode=csta

This article argues that The Walking Dead is a post-Western, a genre that extracts classical Hollywood Western themes and iconography, and resituates them in a dystopian, postapocalyptic setting. The program features characters forced to reconquer the frontier amid the disintegration of modern society, who must battle undead walkers and other human survivors. As a post-Western, the program inverts the ideological optimism of the classical Hollywood Western. In doing so, it highlights the linkages between the seemingly unconnected narrative universes of the Western and the postapocalyptic tale.



I don't think that's a deconstruction but a theme.

THE LAST OF US 2 is a deconstruction because the classic revenge narrative that drives so many Westerns is such an utterly bad idea throughout. It results in everyone getting fucked over and horrific consequences for everyone involved.

RED DEAD REDEMPTION is about the twilight of the Old West but there's no need to deconstruct it because that's the theme. Yes, it's going to die out and give way to civilization and there is not a damn thing that John or Arthur can do about it.
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Yes but that does not describe The Last of Us. As Torrant said, just because you have Western stuff in a story does not mean that it is a Western. The main theme of The Last of Us and The Walking Dead is survival. The survival genre usually uses Western themes to add more spice to it's story as survival on it's own gets stale after a while. But a Western it does not make.
Also, Abby didn't get fucked over by getting revenge. She got everything that she wanted in the end. You can't do a "Revenge is bad!" story with only one character coming to that realization and suffering it's consequences. Oh and Abby's dog and friends don't count as she doesn't seem to give a shit about them in the end.

SquidVan said:
I mean you could have a story where one person's revenge is foolish while the others' is not and the point of the story could be to contrast the differences in those two desires for revenge. I wouldn't expect TLOU to pull that off in a well done manner though.
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That is actually a good idea for a story. The game could have been about how one character was in the right with their vengeance while the other character was wrong and suffered greatly the consequences for her quest for vengeance. I wouldn't expect Neil to pull off something like this. Like Rian Johnson, he thinks that subverting exceptions and pissing off the fans equals masterful storytelling. See this belief a lot with the kids studying writing and literature at the local liberal arts college. It is basically a belief that hipster d-bags that think they are smarter than everyone else have. We aren't smart enough to "appreciate" or "get" their amazing storytelling and deconstruction.
 
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Also, Abby didn't get fucked over by getting revenge. She got everything that she wanted in the end. You can't do a "Revenge is bad!" story with only one character coming to that realization and suffering it's consequences. Oh and Abby's dog and friends don't count as she doesn't seem to give a shit about them in the end.
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She also got crucified.
 
RangerBoo said:
She still got away with everything she done though. She never once suffered the consequences for her actions because she is Neil's Mary-Sue waifu.
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She got away except for losing all of her friends except one, her dog, and suffering crucifixtion.

Gotcha.
 
https://www.escapistmagazine.com/v2/the-last-of-us-part-ii-zero-punctuation/

Yahtzee reviewed the game recently. Just thought I'd bring it up.

CT Phipps said:
I thought Spec Ops was a masterpiece and full of fascinating insights. Then I found out instead of trying to make an insight on war, trauma, and false heroic narratives - it was parodying military shooters alone and trying to make you feel guilty for playing them. Which is some Jack Thompson level bullshit.
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On the point of trauma, one can clearly see that Walker's trauma from his bad judgment call continually leads him to make decisions to correct his mistake but this, in turn, leads to further catastrophic mistakes that spirals out of control. From this, one can see that the false heroic narrative is even more prevalent as it is Walker's own obssessive desire to be a hero despite his failings and flaws that ruins him until he is forced to face it.

Anti-war was not an intended message from the game though and I feel that your point on the game making you feel guilty for playing it is missing the mark on the game's intent. That supposed guilt-tripping does seem more like part of the game author's intent to make you question why you feel good about playing war shooters where killing your fellow human beings brings you entertainment and glee rather than outright condemn you.

Heck, the fact that the player could choose to surrender and go home in one ending does show that the game does not condemn you and does not want you to dwell on it but rather to tell its story and let you go off with your thoughts enriched or aware of its story's subjects.

If it was being full of Jack Thompson bullshit about it, it would be a lot more obvious, dishonest, pretentious and mean-spirited about it (like possibly a Chinese Room game, for instance). I feel that while SOTL is heavy-handed and unsubtle about its messages and themes, it still explores and expresses them well.

Also, boy, this thread went whack since my last post...
 
CT Phipps said:
She got away except for losing all of her friends except one, her dog, and suffering crucifixtion.

Gotcha.
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I said before that she doesn't care and she still doesn't. She got everything she wanted in the end. Those were all necessary sacrifices for her. Fuck off. You have ignored all my previous posts were I criticize this pile of shit and you blocked Norzan for criticizing it as well. You really can't handle anybody criticizing this game. You also cherry pick arguments to make the argument go in your favor and ignore criticism that you can't make an argument against.
 
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Regarding the revenge thing, mind you that I don't know too much of the story, but Abby gets her revenge and ends up getting crucified and losing everything. Does that anything have to do with her golf handicap or is that the consequence of something else (she does seem to be a bit of a dick, and apparently just murders everyone named "Joel" she crosses paths with?)?
Ellie, on the other hand, simply decides to not fully enact her revenge in the final seconds, and already lost everything. Can't even play guitar anymore because kids these days don't learn about Django Reinhardt anymore.
Not very comparable.
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"Cute as a button" - CT Phipps, the current year.
 
I think it is sadly just a view into how people really are on the inside.
 
Twitter was the first nail in the coffin for the current western civilisation.
We were not ready for iPhones and Twitter, being constantly online and able to shout out our tiny thoughts at all times.
 
Imagine if this was the idea all along...

What better way to cause a collapse, than a collapse from within, and with no obvious culprit.
 
Neil Druckmann is a shit writer, the TLOU2 is craptastic, and I'm not surprised you like this game since you apparently think Fallout 3 is unironically "A GOOD GAME".. and think Fallout 4 "is a betrayal" to it.. LMAO, all Bethesda Fallouts are betrayal to the series- what are you on about?
 
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