The Last of Us 2 - Two cowgirls murdering each other's loved ones

I think I remember the game better than some people that are playing the sequel. Who talks about "I'm going do this and that" but yeah she knew she was going to die. Lol. She thought she was going to survive if I remember correctly. Like there was a chance of her making it out of the surgery. Maybe I am wrong.

Oh wait people are buying Ellie's narrative.
 
The Fireflies were assholes and Joel was a villain. No one is trying to argue the Fireflies were good. But also Joel's actions were very immoral when he went beyond rescuing Ellie and into killing unarmed non combatants and then lie to her about it to cover himself. The first game itself frames Joel's actions as wrong, and the game also makes it explicit Ellie was ready to sacrifice herself if given the choice which both factions took from her, just one pretended he didn't do it for years to keep her as a substitute for their daugther.
 
As far as I am concerned they were Nazi's about to perform surgery on a girl knowing she would die while she had hope of a bright future. Fuck them and fuck you. Hahah just kidding. I like you a lot Walpknut.
 
I rewatched the ending talking bits on youtube and Ellie says what I quoted roughly above. She then says some stuff about oh no zombies and shit, oh get me across the water Joel, the basic filler banter about what you're trying to do in the game. But otherwise, it was once this is said and done we'll go wherever you want and I want you to teach me how to swim. And before that is the giraffe scene where he mentions that she doesn't have to keep looking for the Fireflies without either of them thinking she'll die in helping them. He's already given her that choice to turn around or to help her keep going. Then she nearly drowns in the last section and as Joel starts to perform CPR, he's knocked out by Fireflies and then he wakes up and they're like you can't see her, she's being prepped for surgery already and it's a brain surgery you know she'd want this. They even speak of it as if they're doing this based on the idea that this is what she'd want.

Then after he destroys anything standing in his way in that hospital, he lies to her twice. Roll credits.

Walpknut's a cool dude but I just don't agree on this. There was nothing to even indicate she was willing to do this surgery or not. If Joel hadn't "taken away her choice" in that moment she'd be dead and never would have had a choice. I'd rather someone save my life to ensure I had made a choice to lose it later by my own words than to lose my life without ever knowing it. As far as you can interpret Ellie last remembers being in that tunnel full of water and then waking up in the car asking what the hell happened even mentioning her clothing being different which was a hospital gown.
 
TorontoReign said:
Classic abuse tactics. Lol.

Ellie was willing to die because she was a moody emo teenager. I can't believe people think teenagers have the ability to discern if their feelings are real or not. Ellie didn't even have a fully developed brain. She was not capable of making a choice about dying to be a martyr so Fireflies can control part of the USA.
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No, but she can kill to survive. This is a world where you don't have the option of waiting until someone is an "adult" to make life or death decisions as poor Ellie has to make them constantly. Certainly, Joel has no right to make a decision for a child because he is not Ellie's legal guardian (The Fireflies are as much as such exist) and he's also a murderer and career criminal.

This goes back to can a child have the right to become a "transperson".
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That's moronic. That's comparing apples and dogs.
 
No it isn't. A child doesn't know what the fuck they need. That is why they are a child. They are prone to being brainwashed by whatever shit they see on TV or on the internet. Your knee jerk transphobe comment before shows how biased you are on the subject. Your purple hair wearing friends are probably part of that crowd. You probably write characters that appeal to their sensibilities.

A child does not have the right to make a choice like can I marry this 25 year old man in most situations. Why should a child have the right to butcher their genitals? The fact that you stand for that shows how abhorrent you really are tbh.
 
SquidVan said:
So Ellie was willing to die before ever knowing the chances of the cure working vs her own survival rate, without saying as much as a word of goodbye to Joel in person, and without the Fireflies ever caring about explicit consent though they could have gotten that within the day. What's one more day, at most, to respect another human's life when time doesn't seem to be an issue?

The Fireflies got what they deserved, full stop. You only perform surgery on an unconscious person without consent to save someone's life unless they have a DNR which is a form of agency of one's life otherwise we have to assume they don't want to die.
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The idea of "civilized" rules applying in the face of the apocalypse is ridiculous. Every day, every moment, is another potentially massive number of deaths. The Fireflies are correct from a utilitarian perspective. Joel is correct from a emotional ethical standpoint. Acting like there's a universally "correct" answer is just silly. In RL, bombing raids kill children all the time to win wars.

If you support those, you support killing Ellie.

Thankfully, I don't.

TorontoReign said:
No it isn't. A child doesn't know what the fuck they need. That is why they are a child. They are prone to being brainwashed by whatever shit they see on TV or on the internet. Your knee jerk transphobe comment before shows how biased you are on the subject. Your purple hair wearing friends are probably part of that crowd. You probably write characters that appeal to their sensibilities.
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And yet the circumstances means that the children will be forced to make said choices all the time because there is no longer any protections for children in this society.

A child does not have the right to make a choice like can I marry this 25 year old man in most situations. Why should a child have the right to butcher their genitals? The fact that you stand for that shows how abhorrent you really are tbh.
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I actually didn't say anything of the sort and find you a Son of a Ghoul and Super Mutant for trying to put words in my mouth. It's stupid to make the comparison because they have nothing to do with one another. It's an agenda driven attempt to divert from discussing the issue to make a political point.

But if you want to go there, you realize this means that parents can gender their kids, correct? Including forcing surgeries on them [because your argument is crap]. They can cut their genitals, give them injections, or torture them because according to you they have no right to their own bodies versus parents. Your argument is bullshit because if parents control their children's bodies then they can do anything to them.

Get some basic debating skills.
 
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It's a valid point to illustrate how children are consistently being treated like adults by people on the Left when they are little more than walking parrots that repeat what they are exposed to. There is a reason they are compared to sponges. I called you disgusting because I already know you support children being mutilated due to bad parenting, so when what I say is called moronic by such a person I am forced to call it like it is. Politics keep being brought up here because how the brain interprets this narrative is entirely different depending on which way you lean. That is obvious to me now.
 
TorontoReign said:
I called you disgusting because I already know you support children being mutilated due to bad parenting, so when what I say is called moronic by such a person I am forced to call it like it is. Politics keep being brought up here because how the brain interprets this narrative is entirely different depending on which way you lean. That is obvious to me now.
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Bullshit. You don't know a damn thing about my politics and are just trying to make me your pet Straw Lib. You don't want to talk about the actual game but say a bunch of trash because you feel like it. Would you like to know my opinion?

I believe with the rate of developing technology and the nature of body modification that one needs to be at least hit puberty before one even thinks about this sort of thing and adulthood is the best time to do it because you run the risk of permanent bodily damage. They covered the subject extensively in I am Jazz where a pair of parents caused huge numbers of issues for their daughter by starting transitioning early.

You don't know a goddamn thing about medicine or me so f-off.
 
Mhhhmmm yeah. Anybody who starts spouting shit like transphobic for sure supports parents letting their 8 year old undergo a sex change. Since you are on the Left I know everything I need to know about your politics. Anybody who does not agree with you does not agree with Science! I know what you have said in the past because I have read every post you have ever posted. I have browsed through your books. I have seen what you think superhero capeshit should look like. It's pretty straightforward.

I mean now that we are talking you should even admit that half your purpose for posting here is to promote your books and your blog. That is what you did from the moment you came here. It's even in your avatar. Please buy my books! Nobody really does like you here. I mean I had to defend you and I don't like you.
 
TorontoReign said:
Mhhhmmm yeah. Anybody who starts spouting shit like transphobic for sure supports parents letting their 8 year old undergo a sex change. Since you are on the Left I know everything I need to know about your politics. Anybody who does not agree with you does not agree with Science! I know what you have said in the past because I have read every post you have ever posted. I have browsed through your books. I have seen what you think superhero capeshit should look like. It's pretty straightforward.

I mean now that we are talking you should even admit that half your purpose for posting here is to promote your books and your blog. That is what you did from the moment you came here. It's even in your avatar. Please buy my books! Nobody really does like you here. I mean I had to defend you and I don't like you.
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What the fuck are you talking about? Seriously, now you're just contradicting what I just said. Are you okay? You don't get to just say, "Well because you're on the Left, you don't actually hold the opinion you just stated."

Also, where the fuck did the trans screed come from? It's from fucking nowhere.

Why in the Last of Us 2 thread?
 
Oh so it is ok because you believe they should wait until they hit puberty? It's the same shit. 8 or 12 or 15 years old it is still the same fucking shit because parents are pushing this on their kids and if it isn't the parents it is the media and Hollywood and yes now fucking videogames. If you can't drink until you are 21 why should you have the right to mutilate your body? Why should a parent have that right? Anybody who supports any child of any age getting a sex change (barring special circumstances) is still in the same Lefty Clown boat. You are deranged to think that something so permanent should be decided before your brain is even fully developed. People that support such things being done to children make me sick. Sorry. Enjoy your posting.
 
TorontoReign said:
Oh so it is ok because you believe they should wait until they hit puberty? It's the same shit. 8 or 12 or 15 years old it is still the same fucking shit because parents are pushing this on their kids and if it isn't the parents it is the media and Hollywood and yes now fucking videogames. If you can't drink until you are 21 why should you have the right to mutilate your body? Why should a parent have that right? Anybody who supports any child of any age getting a sex change (barring special circumstances) is still in the same Lefty Clown boat. You are deranged to think that something so permanent should be decided before your brain is even fully developed. People that support such things being done to children make me sick. Sorry. Enjoy your posting.
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Are you drunk? You seem like you're trying to pick a fight with me and annoyed that I said I don't think that you should start transitioning until you're an adult for medical reasons because the technology is underdeveloped and the procedure dangerous.

Yeah, 21 seems like a better time to start because it runs the risk of health damage when done too early.

Supporting trans rights means supporting what is best for them to be able to be safe in their transitions.
 
Finished Seattle Day 2 on Abby's side, this one flowed much better pacing wise than Day 1, because, even tho you have to go through a whole building full of infected, this time it didn't feel as random as "Whoops boat got damaged swim to Owen's place and then random boat full of zombies". Probably helped that I had the perks for crafting incendiary shotgun shells so I did quick work with the Clickers by just attracting them to cluster together and just shoot them all with both the Splash and the fire damage building up. Also the fight with the Mutant Amalgam thing was pretty intense, died so many times and had to improvise a lot with the environment, the gameplay being much more fluid really shined in this one. Altho it was weird how the thing that splits off form it is all agressive when the big boy is alive but as soon as I killed the main one it kinda just scampered away scared and I basically had to bully it until it died. I enjoy that everyone is calling out Abby on her bullshit and it was interesting seeing the dog I blew up with a mine as Ellie happily play with it's owner. Also explains why there was a random Spore area in that map when confronting Nora.

I am on Seattle Day 3 so I guess this is gonna be the convergance point for the Abby and Ellie campaigns.

So far I am starting to kinda feel for Abby, even tho she is still kind of a shitty person as her friends point out to her a lot. Then again so were Joel on the first game and Ellie during her campaign.
 
Uh ACKSHUALLY Joel is a bad guy because he's selfish and "d00med" society by not allowing a military junta led by total fucking psychopaths butcher a moody, teenage girl.
 
He also executed the surrendering non combatants and admited to being a raider who killed innocent people in the past to the point his own brother says he has nightmares of their time together.
 
I mean, he kinda did that to a loooooot of people as well. And his legacy is what is making both his brother, his surrogate daugther and the daugther of one of his victims to go down the same path.
 
Talking Ulysses down is unethical. He caused too much suffering for second chances. Disappointed in you Obsidian for providing that option.
 
I think you guys are assuming a hell of a lot of arguments just from me reading up on the themes of the game.

Do you guys also get mad at movies when something unfair happens to a character following the themes of the story?

See to me Joel killing the fireflies and doing immoral things is not a flaw of the game or the story, is something happens and is part of the narrative as part of the message and themes of the game. Just like I don't consider the White Legs killing the New Canaanites as a flaw of the game. Just like the Phantom Thieves falling into a trap due to their own hubris in Persona 5 is not something I get mad about as a flaw of the game.
 
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