The Legion is the best option for the wasteland

[Ediros]

Hmm... Legion is not the best faction for the wasteland in my humble opinion.

That said those guys are very effective at bringing law and order to the places they conquor.

However their idea of straying away from tech, slavery, rape and tactics of constant conquer make them questionable in the long run.

I prefer to nuke both NCR and Legion and then rule the wasteland myself or just give it to yes man.

Also House could make a great ally if he wasn't so obssesed with the past.

 

[Bubba Zanetti]

Combat armor would make much more sense since that's what they all wore in FO2 - and it woulda looked much more bad-ass

That was back in Shady Sands, the capital of the NCR. It stands to reason they're going to be better equipped with combat armor, auto-shotguns, Gauss rifles, etc.

On the other hand, New Vegas takes place in an area far outside NCR's domain--the Mojave. They're also fielding thousands of troopers, so it makes sense they're going to rely on on more practical weapons and armor. Half the time, they can barely manage even that if Primm and Camp Forlorn Hope are any example.

Personally, I think both the NCR and the Legion are represented just fine in-game in terms of appearance.

 

[Dr Fallout]

That was back in Shady Sands, the capital of the NCR. It stands to reason they're going to be better equipped with combat armor, auto-shotguns, Gauss rifles, etc.

On the other hand, New Vegas takes place in an area far outside NCR's domain--the Mojave. They're also fielding thousands of troopers, so it makes sense they're going to rely on on more practical weapons and armor. Half the time, they can barely manage even that if Primm and Camp Forlorn Hope are any example.

Personally, I think both the NCR and the Legion are represented just fine in-game in terms of appearance.

An ex-NCR soldier mentions that the NCR can barely equip everyone in the army, and some recruits have to go in fighting without armour and much ammunition.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

People tend to really overestimate the Legion a great deal, most particularly its size. For starters, Caesar's Legion is only 34 years old (having been founded in 2247 and existing up to 2281) and 34 years is not enough time for any significant population boost. Furthermore tribes in the East are typically small with the largest tribes in Arizona only numbering around several hundred strong total. Also the Legion doesn't enslave the entirety of a conquered tribe as they only take said tribe's men and boys to serve as slave soldiers and said tribe's women and girls to serve as breeding stock with the rest being put to the sword which is roughly more than half of said tribe being wiped out by the Legion. They eradicate the tribes that they conquer entirely, erasing their history, destroying their culture, crucifying anyone that resists the assimilation process and destroying whatsoever and whoever cannot be used. In the end, conquered tribes cease to exist as the only tribe in the Legion is the Legion itself with Caesar as God, King and Emperor all-in-one of this single monolithic tribe. There's also the fact that out of the 87 tribes that the Legion has conquered 7 were completely exterminated (the Ridgers, the Twin Mothers and 5 other unnamed tribes of the 19 tribes conquered by Legate Lanius) and as for the 87th tribe it was only a very recent addition to the Legion's achievements, having been conquered by the Centurion Gaius Magnus in 2281 (who used a Minigun to suppress enemy positions long enough for his troops to attack and overrun the 87th tribe, securing victory as a result) who was rewarded with the Armor of the 87th Tribe, a token to commemorate his victory, and the prestigious position of commander of the Legion encampment at Dry Wells, and given that whether or not it was exterminated or assimilated is currently unknown and the fact that it's recent conquest is unknown to both the NCR and the Legion (even Caesar himself is ignorant of its conquest) the 87th tribe cannot be factored into the Legion's overall strength which leaves it with only 79 tribes overall. Another factor that people leave out is the Legion's complete and total lack of anything even slightly retaining to modern medicine or actual medically-qualified personnel (except for Caesar's personal Mark III Auto-Doc of course and even then its malfunctioning) which would result in very high mortality rates, very high infant mortality rates, very high losses in "breeding stock" due to stillbirths, breechbirths, infection, STDs, etc., etc. as well as lacking any effective means of combatting these problems, very high battlefield losses and a very high death rate for wounded Legionaries (especially given that there's no such thing as field hospitals in the Legion as if Legionaries suffer to debilitating of wounds or injuries they'll be put to death as they're no longer of any use to Caesar) which further subtracts from the Legion's overall strength. The Legion also lacks any kind of infrastructure, industry and even agriculture (all of which is virtually non-existent anywhere in Legion territory), depending solely on foraging, pillaging and raiding and trade to acquire food, water, firearms and ammunition for both its armies and subjects, further dilapidating and hamstringing their overall strength even more. Another factor is the extremely short life expectancy of Legion soldiers, as just surviving ten years in Caesar's army is in itself considered an achievement. Legionaries usually don't live very long due to the brutal nature of the Legion itself and tend to die off in massive quantities very quickly (which is why Caesar implements forced breeding: rather than being a decision based on sexism and misogyny he recognizes that without it, the Legion would wither away and die within months as they lack a real population to recruit from) not to mention that most trainees of the Legion die before they ever become Legionaries due to the savagely harsh training regimen of the Legion (in the Legion there's no such thing as washing out or quitting you either go all or nothing or you die trying; if you're too weak, you're put to the sword and if you fail, you're put to the sword as only the strongest are deemed as worthy of the Legion's ranks) which withers down the Legion's overall strength yet again. There's also the matter of Legion casualties and losses over the course of its conflicts as well. At the First Battle of Hoover Dam (which I'll explain in detail real quick: when the then-Malpais Legate began his assault on Hoover Dam, General Oliver, who was caught entirely off-guard, pulled his Troopers back to the center of the Dam where they entrenched themselves and established a defensive perimeter in anticipation of an attack. Joshua Graham then ordered all of his forces, using the basic Legion formation of Recruits up front and Veterans in the rear, to charge across the Eastern side of the Dam and push through the NCR defenses, an act that trapped the Legion on the Dam as Oliver and the Troopers refused to give an inch of ground to the enemy mowing down hordes of Recruits and Primes as they charged their positions. Chief Hanlon, along with First Recon and Ranger sharpshooter-skirmisher teams, saw an opportunity and positioned himself on the west ridge overlooking the Dam, picking off all the Decanii and Centurions from a distance which threw the Legion into chaos. Unable to coordinate and alter his strategies and realizing that Hanlon and his men were starting to pick off his Veterans, Graham quickly ordered his Veteran formations to push through the Recruits and Primes and past the Troopers' positions so that they could rush the west ridge and suppress Hanlon's sniper fire. As the Veterans charged past the Recruits and Primes (which only served to disintegrate what little order remained amongst the Legion's ranks) Oliver and the Troopers stepped aside towards the side walkways and let the Veterans pass, resuming the battle on the Dam with the Recruits and Primes who had by now become little more than target practice. The Veterans advanced up to the west ridge but by then the Rangers and First Recon were already in Boulder City. The Veterans, expecting to finally corner and destroy Hanlon and his me, rushed into the city, unaware that Hanlon was nowhere near the city and had rigged the city to blow with every kind of explosive known to man. Those few who survived the resulting explosion were in no position to mount a defense and were easily wiped out by the Rangers and First Recon. Graham soon realized that the battle was lost but before he could order a retreat Oliver and the Troopers launched a full-scale counter-offensive on the surviving Legion forces, routing the few survivors and driving them back across the Dam and into Arizona) the full might of the then-66 tribes (the other 21 were conquered after the First Battle of Hoover Dam in this order: the Hidebarks, the future Lanius's tribe, was the 67th tribe conquered by Caesar's Legion captured by Caesar himself personally, 19 were conquered by Lanius between 2278-2281 and the 87th was conquered by Gaius Magnus in 2281) was almost com

 

[Izak]

I think you forgot to make paragraphs, dude.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

I think you forgot to make paragraphs, dude.

Yeah I know, lol. Still most of post was deleted for whatever reason so I'll cut it short. The Legion only has around 10,000 troops total in its entire military. I'll explain if you want.

 

[Izak]

Yeah I know, lol. Still most of post was deleted for whatever reason so I'll cut it short. The Legion only has around 10,000 troops total in its entire military. I'll explain if you want.

I do want you to explain, I thought New Vegas made it clear that the Legion had the numerical superiority while the NCR had technological superiority. I'm interested in hearing your interpretation, though perhaps not in as many words as you tried to explain it in.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

I do want you to explain, I thought New Vegas made it clear that the Legion had the numerical superiority while the NCR had technological superiority. I'm interested in hearing your interpretation, though perhaps not in as many words as you tried to explain it in.

Fair enough, lol. Simply put the Legion is too young. It's only been around for 34 years whilst the NCR has been around for 102 years. The annexation of Vault City gave the Republic unlimited access to organ cloning technology, performance enhancement implant technology and armor grafting technology amongst numerous other medical technologies as well as the ability to mass-produce medical supplies such as stims, superstims, Radaway, Rad-X, etc., etc. and even the ability to mass-produce Auto-Doc technology whilst the Legion only uses healing powders, bitter drink and Hydra. The NCR has a collosal industrial base that is literally unrivaled by anyone in the entire post-apocalyptic world and is the largest agricultural powerhouse in existence whilst the Legion has absolutely no industry whatsoever and knows next to nothing about agriculture. The NCR is the largest, wealthiest, most powerful, most developed nation on Earth whilst the Legion is a Luddite society that shuns any and all technology save weapons tech and even then they have restrictions in this field as well and only allow the top ranks to possess any real weapons get my point? It's literally impossible for the Legion to outnumber the NCR. What do you think?

 

[Izak]

The annexation of Vault City gave the Republic unlimited access to organ cloning technology, performance enhancement implant technology and armor grafting technology amongst numerous other medical technologies as well as the ability to mass-produce medical supplies such as stims, superstims, Radaway, Rad-X, etc., etc. and even the ability to mass-produce Auto-Doc technology

I think you overestimate the NCR's industrial power for one thing. Caesar makes it sound as though NCR's dependence on industry is more a weakness then anything, of course, he'd be the type to spout propaganda, so who knows if that's true? Additionally, Julie Farkas (or maybe Arcade Gannon? I don't remember) said NCR's ability to manufacture stimpaks isn't stellar.

It's literally impossible for the Legion to outnumber the NCR.

Population's relatively independent of industrial and technological progress, after all Africans outnumber Europeans by about three hundred sixty-eight million five hundred thousand, no reason why the Legion can't outnumber NCR, especially given some of their more 'pragmatic' policies when it comes to breeding and conscription.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

I think you overestimate the NCR's industrial power for one thing. Caesar makes it sound as though NCR's dependence on industry is more a weakness then anything, of course, he'd be the type to spout propaganda, so who knows if that's true? Additionally, Julie Farkas (or maybe Arcade Gannon? I don't remember) said NCR's ability to manufacture stimpaks isn't stellar.

Population's relatively independent of industrial and technological progress, after all Africans outnumber Europeans by about three hundred sixty-eight million five hundred thousand, no reason why the Legion can't outnumber NCR, especially given some of their more 'pragmatic' policies when it comes to breeding and conscription.[/QUOTE

I'm sorry but did you just say that population growth is independent of technological and industrial progress, really? Here's why you're wrong about that. In the time between 1780 and 1850 during the First Industrial Revolution, the population of Great Britain (where the First Industrial Revolution began and was confined to for decades) rose from 7.5 million to 18.5 million. All of this was the result of INDUSTRY. With industry came advances in technology (such as Wattz engines and the world's first modern railroads), advances in medicine (such as the world's first small pox vaccines) and advances in agronomical sciences (such as newer, more efficient means of cultivating fields which in turn resulted in more bountiful harvests and in turn a larger food supply) all of which caused a massive spike in birth rates and a massive decrease in death rates which in turn led to a population boom. As a result you're statement claiming that industry and technology have nothing to do with population growth is false. Arcade Gannon is actually talking about the Mojave branch of the Followers of the Apocalypse, not the NCR. The NCR and the FOA had a falling out a few years ago with both sides withdrawing support from one another. The NCR was unaffected, however, as a group of disillusioned Followers defected to the Republic and became the Office of Science and Industry. The Followers back West are still doing fine even without NCR aid but the Mojave branch was hit hard. The Mojave branch is now forced to depend solely on charity for their supplies and even has to resort to scavenging from old hospitals aside from trying to craft new supplies from Wasteland flora. And are you honestly trying to compare an entire continent to one little state that was saturated in nukes and had no Vaults or GECKs to help protect them and restore the land, I mean seriously? Arizona only has 6.8 million people in it right now and more than 4.5 million people live in and around Maricopa County or to be more specific Phoenix, Arizona. The Great War would've wiped out nearly the entire population of Arizona with only a handful surviving to become tribes (I'll explain the situation with Legion holdings in Utah, Colorado and New Mexico if you like). California had the most Vaults in the country and had GECKs to help get everything restored. Furthermore California has a population of 38.6 million people right now (with L.A. having twice as many people as Arizona does) and with more advantages than Arizona more people would've been bound to survive the Great War in California than in Arizona. Once again, NCR far outnumbers the Legion. If anything, you're UNDERESTIMATING the industrial capabilities of the Republic. The NCR already has the ability to manufacture combat vehicles (not tanks, but APCs and stuff like that) and even Sentry Bots. In fact, Obsidian had actually intended for the NCR to use combat vehicles, Sentry Bots and even Vertibirds in New Vegas but the game engine couldn't handle this stuff so they had to cut it from the final version. So, what do you think now?

 

[zegh8578]

I for one think AradeshHanlon64 needs to
1. Learn better how to compose a coherent reply
2. Quote better, and not make a weird mess of it
3. Cut down on the "so NOW what do you say?"-factor, because total victory in debates come much harder than that...

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

I for one think AradeshHanlon64 needs to
1. Learn better how to compose a coherent reply
2. Quote better, and not make a weird mess of it
3. Cut down on the "so NOW what do you say?"-factor, because total victory in debates come much harder than that...

When I said "so now what do you think" I was just asking his opinion on my opinion I wasn't saying I won though Izak really isn't making any sense if you ask me. Also if my original comment hadn't deleted itself you'd have gotten a clearer view of my argument.

 

[Izak]

I'm sorry but did you just say that population growth is independent of technological and industrial progress, really? (...) As a result you're statement claiming that industry and technology have nothing to do with population growth is false.

And people in underdeveloped nations still manage to outnumber people in highly developed nations, there's no reason the Legion can't outnumber NCR. (By the way, that 'relatively' part of my previous reply was supposed to cover the blatant incorrectness of my post.)

And are you honestly trying to compare an entire continent to one little state that was saturated in nukes and had no Vaults or GECKs to help protect them and restore the land, I mean seriously?

No, I was trying to compare Europe (a continent) to Africa (another continent).

Arcade Gannon is actually talking about the Mojave branch of the Followers of the Apocalypse, not the NCR.

Whatever, that still leaves Caesar's ideological arguments against NCR dependence on salvaged industry.

California had the most Vaults in the country

That's news to me, don't suppose you have a wiki link to quote from? My ability to display wikias has gone out the window, for whatever reason.

and had GECKs to help get everything restored.

As did the rest of the USA, GECKs weren't unique to California.

Furthermore California has a population of 38.6 million people right now (with L.A. having twice as many people as Arizona does) and with more advantages than Arizona more people would've been bound to survive the Great War in California than in Arizona.

And having a larger population density and (without bothering to research if this is true) being more industrialised would it not serve as a bigger target? Would more people be bound to survive if more nukes were thrown its way?

Once again, NCR far outnumbers the Legion.

Well, ultimately we're all guessing at this, until the developers say otherwise.

Learn to quote, skrub.

 

[Bubba Zanetti]

Also...

The Legion also lacks any kind of infrastructure, industry and even agriculture (all of which is virtually non-existent anywhere in Legion territory), depending solely on foraging, pillaging and raiding and trade to acquire food, water, firearms and ammunition for both its armies and subjects, further dilapidating and hamstringing their overall strength even more.

Not quite according to JE Sawyer:

The general tone would have been what you would expect from life under a stable military dictatorship facing no internal resistance: the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival) but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities. Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off.

According to the developer they've got infrastructure. About the only thing he doesn't mention is industry, which would easily be rectified once the Legion seizes the Mojave and all the skilled inhabitants contained therein.

It's a shame that none of this was effectively portrayed in-game due to constraining factors. We were instead forced to read between the lines (relying on the words of Caesar, Dale Barton, Cass, and Raul) in order to discover there was ultimately more to the Legion than meets the eye--which was always the developers' intention.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

Also...



Not quite according to JE Sawyer:

The general tone would have been what you would expect from life under a stable military dictatorship facing no internal resistance: the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival) but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities. Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off.

According to the developer they've got infrastructure. About the only thing he doesn't mention is industry, which would easily be rectified once the Legion seizes the Mojave and all the skilled inhabitants contained therein.

It's a shame that none of this was effectively portrayed in-game due to constraining factors. We were instead forced to read between the lines (relying on the words of Caesar, Dale Barton, Cass, and Raul) in order to discover there was ultimately more to the Legion than meets the eye--which was always the developers' intention.

As much as I respect J.E. Sawyer there's nothing in that quote that even slightly suggests that there's any real infrastructure in Caesar's Legion (though I'll concede that I was wrong the Legion does have infrastructure after all). The word "productive" just means profitable as traders, for example, often make hefty profits trading in Legion territory as they don't have to hire protection or pay taxes. As for food, water, and power being plentiful it's only so because the Legion's subject population is so small. Whenever the Legion conquers a civilized town they still take slaves. Women and girls (as evidenced by Siri at Fortification Hill who was a medical student in an independent town somewhere in New Mexico before her enslavement) are taken as slaves as breeding stock is vital to the Legion's continued existence, able-bodied men and boys are taken as slaves and converted into slave soldiers and undesirables (the elderly, the sickly, junkies, Ghouls, Super Mutants and those who actively oppose Caesar's will) are put to the sword. Only a handful are kept around at the end and Dale Barton is a typical example of this handful: not fit for military service but serves a useful purpose outside of military applications (Barton was responsible for acquiring the broken Howitzer at Fortification Hill, for example). The Legion is purely a military institution without any civilian elements or the supporting culture with those few that are not enslaved by the Legion simply being clients under the protection of the Legion and not and not a part of the Legion proper. All resources are diverted to the military with the scraps being chopped off to the subjects and given just how small their population is scraps are more than enough to sustain them. As for the Legion taking the Mojave that's not going to happen. In terms of the canonical victor of the Second Battle of Hoover Dam (who the Courier canonically supports) it'll definitely be between an Independent Vegas and NCR (most likely in my opinion) so the Legion's boned here. In a "what-if" scenario where the Courier died in Goodsprings NCR wins by default, albeit only barely. The Second Battle of Hoover Dam plays out as follows: the Legion's main force launches a frontal assault across the surface of the Dam whilst small infiltration teams of Prime Legionaries and Centurions attack through the intake tunnels to 1.) throw the NCR defenders into confusion and disarray and 2.) find and kill General Oliver (the only chance the Legion has at taking Hoover Dam is if General Oliver is killed as his death would cause the NCR's chain of command to collapse which in turn would result in the NCR retreating and abandoning the Dam to the Legion). The battle on the surface (as evidenced by Veni, Vidi, Vici) goes poorly for the Legion quickly as two NCR sharpshooters have single-handedly pinned down their entire main force not to mention that their troops coming from the western intake towers were beaten back and the towers were sealed off and a wall of thousands of Rangers (Regular, Patrol and Veterans), Troopers (all of which are armed with Marksman Carbines, Assault Carbines, Riot Shotguns and 308. Sniper Rifles) and Heavy Troopers (armed with Miniguns, Light Machine Guns, Heavy Incinerators, Flamers and even Missile Launchers albeit rarely) is proving to be too much for them to handle (note: this is the scale of the battle lore-wise, not in-game wise). As for their infiltration teams, NCR Patrol Rangers, NCR Troopers with aforementioned equipment and Heavy Troopers (lore-wise and with aforementioned equipment), though initially caught off-guard will eventually snap out of it and begin to wear them down not to mention that Oliver's Compound (safeguarded by force field technology (Veni, Vidi, Vici), all manners of traps, a sniper nest and Heavy Troopers with aforementioned equipment, Veteran Rangers armed with Anti-Materiel Rifles and Troopers with aforementioned equipment) is impenetrable to the Legion and it doesn't exactly help that you see a big pile of dead Centurions and Prime Legionaries at the entrance whenever you walk in in Veni, Vidi, Vici. Also, Mike Lawson knows how the Legion gained access to the power plants and how to stop them (as evidenced by Eureka) which is as simple as him running to the turbine generator control console in Power Plant 03, pressing a button and then running outside away from the battle and turning the main override valve, flooding the intake tunnels and preventing the Legion from using them anymore. Afterwards the remaining Legion infiltration teams are mopped up and General Oliver (holed up in his Compound) is as safe as a house. The end result: with fresh reinforcements from Camp McCarran the NCR launches a full-scale counter-offensive and ultimately routes and destroys the Legion in detail. Oliver's strategies would ultimately pay off at Hoover Dam and the NCR will secure victory here in very short order and with minimal losses. Now for the bad part. Camp Golf will fall to the Legion and the the Misfits would be wiped out. The Camp McCarran monorail would be bombed. The Omertas would bomb the NCR Embassy and launch a devastating coup d'etat on the Strip though they'd be wiped out by House. With Camp McCarran weakened by sending reinforcements to Hoover Dam, the Fiends launch a massive assault on the NCR here though despite heavy casualties the NCR fends them off (the fact that McCarran would still have First Recon and is reinforced with Heavy Troopers at this point in time will see to this). The Kings launch attacks on NCR citizens. Camp Forlorn Hope would be hit with a full-scale Legion assault and despite fending them off would suffer heavy losses in the process (this is the default outcome if neither Restoring Hope or We Are Legion is completed and if both Nelson and Camp Forlorn Hope were to be avoided altogether). While Oliver's tactics ultimately payed off at Hoover Dam they screwed the Mojave as whole over big time. Regardless, NCR still wins the Second Battle of Hoover Dam and defeats the Legion by default. No need to worry about the Legion conquering the Mojave because it'll never happen. Cheers.

 

[Bubba Zanetti]

I'll concede that I was wrong the Legion does have infrastructure after all.

Yup.

The word "productive" just means profitable as traders, for example, often make hefty profits trading in Legion territory as they don't have to hire protection or pay taxes.

No, in context "productive" refers to all citizens, or subjects, or however the fuck one chooses to describe the non-military, non-slave population that live safe, productive lifestyles in Legion territory. In-game examples of these types of folks would be Goodsprings or Primm (sans Meyers) per the Legion ending.

Talk to Raul and he'll tell you how bad things were before the Legion came to town. Considering the fact that Legion is minting its own currency, providing save transit for merchants, and manufacturing its own medicine from scratch (Bitter Drink, Hydra) it is totally within the realm of possibility folks in the east have developed a viable infrastructure.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

And people in underdeveloped nations still manage to outnumber people in highly developed nations, there's no reason the Legion can't outnumber NCR. (By the way, that 'relatively' part of my previous reply was supposed to cover the blatant incorrectness of my post.)

No, I was trying to compare Europe (a continent) to Africa (another continent).

Whatever, that still leaves Caesar's ideological arguments against NCR dependence on salvaged industry.

That's news to me, don't suppose you have a wiki link to quote from? My ability to display wikias has gone out the window, for whatever reason.

As did the rest of the USA, GECKs weren't unique to California.

And having a larger population density and (without bothering to research if this is true) being more industrialised would it not serve as a bigger target? Would more people be bound to survive if more nukes were thrown its way?

Well, ultimately we're all guessing at this, until the developers say otherwise.

Learn to quote, skrub.

You keep comparing the second largest continent in the world with far greater natural resources and arable farmland to the world's smallest continent that depends on importing natural resources to sustain itself which makes no sense. The NCR is far larger than the Legion, controlling everything from Oregon down to the Baja peninsula as well as all of Nevada (as the Republic fully controls the New Reno and Carson area, is confirmed by Jed Masterson in Nevada to have had Rangers up in the I-80 in the very north of Nevada before the war with the Legion and is confirmed by Ulysses to have used New Canaan up in Utah as a supply line (before its destruction) alongside the Divide (before the Divide Incident) and currently the Long 15 not to mention that the NCR currently occupies the Mojave Wasteland which is the southernmost tip of Nevada all of which confirms that the Republic has the entire state of Nevada under their control albeit most of it is lawless frontier as of now) and even possesses territory in Arizona at Bullhead City and the surrounding area whilst the Legion only has Arizona (save the Bullhead City area) and parts of southeastern Utah, parts of western New Mexico and parts of of southern and eastern Colorado up to Denver though only Arizona can ultimately be factored into the Legion's overall strength (I'll explain if you like). Not only is the Legion even more undeveloped than the present-day countries that you keep trying to compare them to but it's definitely smaller than most if not all of them and has only been around for a measly 34 years whilst these countries have had centuries to grow and develop somewhat not to mention that these nations weren't wiped off the map by nuclear weapons like Arizona was (in the real world mind you) so you're point regarding that just because underdeveloped nations outnumber developed nations today then the Legion can outnumber the NCR is moot at best. I never said that California was the only state to have GECKs I said that Arizona didn't have them. As for the Vaults I'll admit that's speculation on my part as you hear of more Vaults there than anywhere else. California was actually one of the hardest hit areas of the Great War but then again the population of the NCR by 2241 was 700,000+ which implies that quite a few people survived (more so than in Arizona most definitely). It can easily be assumed that by 2281 the NCR has a total population of 5 million+ by now (I'll explain if you want). Once again, the NCR far outnumbers the Legion.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

Yup.



No, in context "productive" refers to all citizens, or subjects, or however the fuck one chooses to describe the non-military, non-slave population that live safe, productive lifestyles in Legion territory. In-game examples of these types of folks would be Goodsprings or Primm (sans Meyers) per the Legion ending.

Talk to Raul and he'll tell you how bad things were before the Legion came to town. Considering the fact that Legion is minting its own currency, providing save transit for merchants, and manufacturing its own medicine from scratch (Bitter Drink, Hydra) it is totally within the realm of possibility folks in the east have developed a viable infrastructure.

I never said said that Legion territories weren't safe I said that they were grossly underdeveloped which is true. Legion territories are extremely safe even safer than NCR territories which says something. In the words of Rose of Sharon Cassidy "roads back West were safer than most places...... most" meaning that while NCR territories are safe for the most part they're second best to Legion territories. Healing powders are just broc flower and xander root mushed into powder, bitter drink is just healing powder made into a more effective liquid form and Hydra is just a brew of Wasteland flora they're all purely tribal remedies that are very simple and easy to create and don't require infrastructure of any kind so you're point regarding these tribal remedies is null and void not to mention that only certain slaves with a little medical training (such as Siri who learned basic first aid before her enslavement) craft these supplies for the Legion and even then they suck at it as Siri incorrectly uses two broc flowers per xander root which decreases her output greatly so once more, null and void. Legion Denarii and Aureii are actually made out of scavenged gold and silver (meaning that the Legion just shakes down their subjects for jewellery and other "tribute" and then melt it all down into coins http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Legion_coinage here's proof in case you have doubts) a fact that definitely shows you just how underdeveloped the Legion really is. As for transit, dirt roads and people hauling caravans of pack Brahmin is hardly developed, no matter how safe these roads are. Caesar cares little for his subjects or even his own soldiers. In his eyes they're all just expendable tools that he'll cast aside once he has no further use of them. The Legion doesn't even try to develop their territories as they'd give a shit less about development let alone the subjects under their protection. They invest all of the their resources, time and energy into the military and conquest. People may enjoy very safe and productive lives in Legion territory but they're overall living standards suck ass, especially when compared to the living standards of citizens of the Republic, which is a near-mirror image of Pre-War America. In fact, here's an example of their living standards: before its annexation into the NCR Arroyo was just a tiny tribal village out in the middle of nowhere. Now what is now New Arroyo is one of the largest, most prosperous cities of the Republic and the entirety of the post-apocalyptic world (though it is dealing with heavy taxation and NCR inflation as a result of the Brotherhood War sadly). My point is that the Legion is way behind the Republic in terms of development and while the Legion does have infrastructure it's terribly primitive and backward.

 

[Bubba Zanetti]

@AradeshHanlon64

No shit Legion territory is behind NCR in terms of development, I never made such a ridiculous claim to the contrary in the first place.

What I was addressing your original assertion that the Legion had zero infrastructure and relied solely on pillaging to support itself and its civilian population back east. This is complete and utter bullshit which you wisely backpedaled away from. Congrats.

Also...

Legion Denarii and Aureii are actually made out of scavenged gold and silver (meaning that the Legion just shakes down their subjects for jewellery and other "tribute" and then melt it all down into coins

That's not scavenging. Scavenging is collecting useful material from discarded refuse. What you're describing is theft and extortion which is, first off, nowhere mentioned in that article you cited. Secondly, such bullshit is strictly forbidden by Caesar and any legionnaire caught pulling a stunt like this is likely to get himself mounted on a crosspiece... or worse.

per Sawyer:

Corruption within the Legion is rare and Caesar deals with it harshly (even by Legion standards).

 

[Dr Fallout]

As for transit, dirt roads and people hauling caravans of pack Brahmin is hardly developed

You were saying?