The making of Fallout 4 - Game Informer article

[Walpknut]

The very first quest forces you to kill raiders and a Deathclaw, so no, it's not just low charisma, the game just isn't built to support pacifist routes. Also, just like it happened with FO3, diplomatic options work like Jedi Mind Tricks as they just work on a random chance and many times it isn't even clear why it even worked at all.

 

[THIJAKA]

The appeal to subjectivity is what I see as a problem to your argument. We set standards so we can evaluate games. They aren't concrete like laws of physics for example of course, but we have standards, otherwise there wouldn't be much of a way or any way to rate games.

The nigh nonsensical, such as transplanting three of the most powerful factions spread out on the west coast (BoS, Enclave, super mutants) into D.C. on the opposite side of the continent, falls beneath even the lowest standards.

The Super Mutants of D.C. aren't the same as the ones as in New California which I'm sure you know, the fact that F.E.V. exists elsewhere, possessed by an extremely powerful government company, is not something that is impossible, in fact it is more than probable.

They give a perfectly fine excuse for why the Brotherhood is there. Regain contact with the Eastern Brotherhood, which was established in Tactics and if you have a problem with Fallout 3 for having around 100 Brotherhood soldiers in D.C. then you must hate Tactics for how it portrayed the Brotherhood. The Brotherhood also setting a goal to find and treasure technology isn't nonsensical, it's completely in line with their entire organisation.

The Enclave's explanation also stands up fairly well. You're being hunted all over New California, you need to escape or you will all be hunted down, where can you go where you will be safe but can still carry out your plans to "purify" the world as you see fit? The opposite side of the country is where.

Makes more sense than a ghost if you ask me.

Edit: Forgot to put "find technology in BoS section"

The very first quest forces you to kill raiders and a Deathclaw, so no, it's not just low charisma, the game just isn't built to support pacifist routes. Also, just like it happened with FO3, diplomatic options work like Jedi Mind Tricks as they just work on a random chance and many times it isn't even clear why it even worked at all.

It was the same in the originals, it all worked off chance. I agree that I don't like this system anywhere near as much as NV handled it, but simply giving Fallout 3 the shaft for this and not the others is wrong.

 

[Kilus]

@THIJAKA don't double post. Put all replies into the one post.

 

[Walpknut]

Actually the FEV in DC doesn't make sense, the FEV was originally a top secret project conducted in a military facility. The Super Mutants weren't even the original result of the FEV experimentation, the ywere created by further experiments by the Master. The FEV was also stated to be very much localized to the California area, with the Enclave even having to dig up the Military base to retrieve the virus. If it was in some random Vault they would've known about it as they had knowledge of all Vaults. Also there si the question of why did the Vault people even continue experiments after the war and why would Mariposa trust a civilian facility on the other side of the Country with handlind such an experimental virus? It really makes very little sense and with the Super Mutants barely serving any propouse in the plot, having no organization or goals they are also a pointless retcon.

The Brotherhood being there is ok. The brotherhood suddenly becoming White Knights of the round table that spout pseudo Jedi lines like "Steel be with you" tho? No, that's just shitty writting. You are als forced to join them which is just dumb.

And no, the Enclave was very much destroyed on the Oil Rig, they were already a small faction that needed to check their numbers, them suddenly becoming this super army with Vertibirds to spare despite losing their source of Fuel is actually just a huge leap in logic and narrative. They shouldn't have such numbers. And their role in the game was just an exact repeat of their previous plan, that's just lazy writting.

A ghost is whatever. There have always been supernatural elements in Fallout. Alsoyou are comparing a small quest in an early town to entire big plot points of the main game.

It was the same in the originals, it all worked off chance. I agree that I don't like this system anywhere near as much as NV handled it, but simply giving Fallout 3 the shaft for this and not the others is wrong.

The originals offered more options for all Skills, also if an entry into the series already fixed that I think is more than fair to hold it against it for not only dumbing down the System with the removal of skills but for ignoring an improvement by falling back on random chances again.

 

[THIJAKA]

Actually the FEV in DC doesn't make sense, the FEV was originally a top secret project conducted in a military facility. The Super Mutants weren't even the original result of the FEV experimentation, the ywere created by further experiments by the Master. The FEV was also stated to be very much localized to the California area, with the Enclave even having to dig up the Military base to retrieve the virus. If it was in some random Vault they would've known about it as they had knowledge of all Vaults. Also there si the question of why did the Vault people even continue experiments after the war and why would Mariposa trust a civilian facility on the other side of the Country with handlind such an experimental virus? It really makes very little sense and with the Super Mutants barely serving any propouse in the plot, having no organization or goals they are also a pointless retcon.

The Brotherhood being there is ok. The brotherhood suddenly becoming White Knights of the round table that spout pseudo Jedi lines like "Steel be with you" tho? No, that's just shitty writting. You are als forced to join them which is just dumb.

And no, the Enclave was very much destroyed on the Oil Rig, they were already a small faction that needed to check their numbers, them suddenly becoming this super army with Vertibirds to spare despite losing their source of Fuel is actually just a huge leap in logic and narrative. They shouldn't have such numbers. And their role in the game was just an exact repeat of their previous plan, that's just lazy writting.

A ghost is whatever. There have always been supernatural elements in Fallout. Alsoyou are comparing a small quest in an early town to entire big plot points of the main game.

The very first quest forces you to kill raiders and a Deathclaw, so no, it's not just low charisma, the game just isn't built to support pacifist routes. Also, just like it happened with FO3, diplomatic options work like Jedi Mind Tricks as they just work on a random chance and many times it isn't even clear why it even worked at all.

It was the same in the originals, it all worked off chance. I agree that I don't like this system anywhere near as much as NV handled it, but simply giving Fallout 3 the shaft for this and not the others is wrong.

The originals offered more options for all Skills, also if an entry into the series already fixed that I think is more than fair to hold it against it for not only dumbing down the System with the removal of skills but for ignoring an improvement by falling back on random chances again.[/QUOTE]

Just because it is heavily implied that F.E.V. doesn't exist elsewhere doesn't mean it can't. And with Vault 87 being a country away, the Enclave going there to retrieve it when there is some right next to them in Mariposa is less than logical.

I'm perfectly fine with the Brotherhood being like this solely because of the existence of the Outcasts. The "Outcasts" are the Brotherhood, with the exact same rules, logic and even tolerance for wastelanders, so the Brotherhood becoming a bunch of seemingly "white knights" but in actuality are simply a very idealistic yet incompetent faction under poor leadership due to fierce-loyalty from the soldiers that rank beneath said leader and only succeeded because a 19 year old saved their asses. Yes, I whole heartedly agree that being forced to side with the Brotherhood in 3 is awful, to me it is arguably the worst part about the entire game, especially when they're actually such a grey faction.

The Enclave where known to exist in other places, such as many troops being at Navarro and even being established in New Vegas that their is an outpost in Chicago, so I personally don't doubt that they could have survived. The Enclave
being seen as an "army" in Fallout 3 I blame solely on game mechanics, them respawning solely exists to give the player some challenge in combat and to vary the enemies from the typical radscorpion, so them being seen in this way I don't really consider to be an actual true representation. I personally really enjoyed the Enclave in Fallout 3, and found Eden and Autumn to be better than their respective Fallout 2 counterparts (especially Autumn, who is the only sane leader the Enclave has ever had and can even be reasoned with in the game's climax, something you couldn't do with Horrigan).

And I know I am comparing a small part of the game to an overall story of another, but I have many problems with Fallout 2 that go beyond this. I adore the first Fallout but my feelings are mixed on 2 (still much more positive than bad).

 

[Walpknut]

Actuallly New vegas states that the Chicago outpost has not even existed for a while. With ED-E not finding anything in his travels and being pìcked up by a small family when he reached Chicago.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The appeal to subjectivity is what I see as a problem to your argument.

The appeal to subjectivity is always the last ditch effort when your interlocutor realizes they have no argument. It's literally just a slightly (but only ever so slightly) more sophisticated way of saying "Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

 

[THIJAKA]

The appeal to subjectivity is what I see as a problem to your argument.

The appeal to subjectivity is always the last ditch effort when your interlocutor realizes they have no argument. It's literally just a slightly (but only ever so slightly) more sophisticated way of saying "Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

I posted reasons along side this in my arguments. I am currently doing my masters in Film Studies and my dissertation is on the undeniable science that everyone interoperates and experiences things differently. It's not a last ditch effort to save an argument here, because I opened with it then expressed my points.

Instead of claiming that I'm using a strawman argument, actually look at the points I made after I made the true factual claim of interpretation and challenge me on those, and if you in fact claim that art isn't subjective then everything you adore and like must be fact and what the rest of us differ on in our opinions must be falsity.

 

[TorontoReign]

These sorts of arguments are useless despite what you claim.

 

[THIJAKA]

These sorts of arguments are useless despite what you claim.

If you'd like to read my other points you're welcome to instead of stressing on just one.

And yes, in a way these kind of arguments are pointless, in the same way all art can be seen as such.

If someone dislikes the modern Fallouts simply because it isn't an isometric turn based RPG, then that's perfectly fine. Many had their first experience with Fallout in that kind of gameplay, and to not like the modern style anyway near as much is perfectly okay. The same goes for people who played the modern Fallouts first and then played the originals and found that they didn't enjoy them as much simply because it's not the same kind of experience they had the first time around.

Biased is a part of life and there is nothing wrong with it. People can play Call of Duty simply to have a casual gaming session with their friends, and someone can play The Witcher III simply to be transported into a whole new and to become invested in it's rich story and lore. Neither of these things are wrong, just inherent personal taste we have developed through the things we have experienced in our lives.

But as I said, this wasn't the only argument I used, I brought up many points, this was simply to show that I don't consider other people with differing opinions to be "wrong".

 

[TorontoReign]

These sorts of arguments are useless despite what you claim.

If you'd like to read my other points you're welcome to instead of stressing on just one.

And yes, in a way these kind of arguments are pointless, in the same way all art can be seen as such.

If someone dislikes the modern Fallouts simply because it isn't an isometric turn based RPG, then that's perfectly fine. Many had their first experience with Fallout in that kind of gameplay, and to not like the modern style anyway near as much is perfectly okay. The same goes for people who played the modern Fallouts first and then played the originals and found that they didn't enjoy them as much simply because it's not the same kind of experience they had the first time around.

Biased is a part of life and there is nothing wrong with it. People can play Call of Duty simply to have a casual gaming session with their friends, and someone can play The Witcher III simply to be transported into a whole new and to become invested in it's rich story and lore. Neither of these things are wrong, just inherent personal taste we have developed through the things we have experienced in our lives.

But as I said, this wasn't the only argument I used, I brought up many points, this was simply to show that I don't consider other people with differing opinions to be "wrong".

I know your other points were valid, but as you know once it gets down to opinions there is nowhere to go from there. I just felt the need respond to that.


Stolen directly from the Codex.

Spoiler

The guy who snatches your baby from the Cryo pod is named Kellogg. He's a mercenary, originally from NCR territory, who is working for the Institute. The Institute has prolonged his life with their super sekrit technology. At this point in the game, the SS has hunted down Kellogg and gotten revenge for his/her spouse. One of the items on Kellogg's corpse was some sort of cybernetic that helps them locate the 'entrance' to The Institute. They need to take it to The Memory Den, that place in the concept art / trailer, in order to access Kellogg's memories and see how to get in to The Institute.

 

[PossibleCabbage]

It's odd to me that Bethesda does not understand that things like "a voiced protagonist" and "more choice" are in direct opposition. Like the whole "Mass Effect dialogue" thing works in Mass Effect because Mass Effect is not about letting you do whatever you want and go wherever you want, it's about telling their story while periodically attempting to impress upon the player that their input on the story is meaningful. Likewise things like Alpha Protocol and Deus Ex.

But if your goal from a design perspective is to enable as many different things as possible, then you don't want that level of polish since it's simply going to get in the way of providing more options.

 

[TorontoReign]

It's odd to me that Bethesda does not understand that things like "a voiced protagonist" and "more choice" are in direct opposition. Like the whole "Mass Effect dialogue" thing works in Mass Effect because Mass Effect is not about letting you do whatever you want and go wherever you want, it's about telling their story while periodically attempting to impress upon the player that their input on the story is meaningful. Likewise things like Alpha Protocol and Deus Ex.

But if your goal from a design perspective is to enable as many different things as possible, then you don't want that level of polish since it's simply going to get in the way of providing more options.

It really does make me wonder what the reactions will be from their fans.

 

[Walpknut]

I also dislike that the dialogue system is that same weird "soft lock" dialogue from Skyrim whre people could Bump you out of a dialogue and if you tried activating again it would bug out...

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Instead of claiming that I'm using a strawman argument

I didn't say you were using a strawman argument, I said you have no argument to speak of.

if you in fact claim that art isn't subjective

Art is "subjective" in the sense that it is created for, and appreciated by, the human subject.

That doesn't mean all art is created equally well and that skill and standards don't matter. If that's what you believe and you're making it through film school, then I weep for an already dying medium.

 

[CRBASF23]

 

[Crni Vuk]

I'm not bothered that karma is gone, the system was beyond broken.

In 3 you had the water beggar problem and such like that, and in NV it was even worse! Slaughter the whole of Caesar's Legion, here's some karma gain for you! But steal the sugar bombs of the people that you where just rewarded for murdering? Here's some karma loss.

That's because they way how Beth made it was stupid. But it doesn't seem that they understood WHY it was stupid, but rather got simply rid of it all together. There is a difference between bad choices and no choices at all.

At least you could argue that Karma or the way how it worked in Fallout 3 was their last attempt at making a try for choices and concequences, and with getting rid of the Karma system, they got also completely rid of that too. Now nothing stops you from acting like the Dveller Sheperd where it doesnt really matter in the end if you're good or bad.

Wow, video game crunches sound horrible. I can't believe developers work that many hours unpaid. This is a really insightful article, thanks for the link. For the longest time I would wonder why so many games were bad, but now I know.

I understand why many people would go for a creative job, either in the gaming, movie or design industry, but to be honest, it rarely is what people actually expect. Crunch time isn't just unique to the gaming industry ...

Spoiler

Take the Special Effects Industry as example, the company behind the effects of Live of Pie and their history can be a real eye opener.



And this is DEFINETLY not some kind of exception! Hell even I heard about it directly from talking to someone who owns and runs a very succesfull Special Effects Company in Germany, their do mainly work for advertising like Mercedes Benz, but as soon as they started to talk about movies, he had not much good to say about it ...

I would say that many get in to it all with a rather naive imigation, sadly. I mean don't get me wrong! People should follow their dreams and their passion. But, the reality is that it almost never works like this dream they have, the only way to get a realistic image of such jobs is to talk with the common people in the industry, not listen to a press conference by some of the popular lead designer of a really huge studio. Most of what they say is actually advertising for their studio and the product. It is more hype than anything, pre planed marketing campaigns and the like, it's pretty standart. Just as how you should not use interviews by a very famous actor to get a grasp of what acting is really like.

It is sad how a whole industry is build around the explotation of people and their passion. No surprise that so many game developers stop working in their jobs after a couple of years. You simply can not keep up this work for ever.

 

[RangerBoo]

Goddamn it! That little brat mayor from Little Lamplight is in this game and he is romanceable?! Ugh... Cringe level is reaching critical mass. Also that is funny that one of the robot companions is romanceable. Either its a joke or they are really pandering to the lowest common denominator.

 

[CRBASF23]

So you can romance a robot, Curie instead of Codsworth

 

[Crni Vuk]

This game will be a true test of human intelligence.

Or you can accept that all art is subjective, all our likes and dislikes in art are fuelled by our experiences. A song many might hate might be adored by another simply because it takes them back to a time when they were happy. Someone might like a particular scene in a film simply because it reminds them of something that happened in their life, and people might shit on Fallout 3 for its aliens and the throwaway line that they started the war despite the fact an earlier game in the franchise did an even more blasphemous act of having a f*cking ghost and an A.I. that implies he and other A.I.'s started the war simply because they were bored.

Art is subjective, and liking any Fallout game the most is perfectly fine, whether this be 1, 3 or even BoS. Things have personal value to us, and that's what matters.

Ah! Yeah, but you see, we are not only talking about art here. This would have SOME merrit if we would be talking about a painting or maybe a statue that was made by the artist just for fun and without any purpose. But what we are talking about here, is actually a product first and foremost. As much as design contains creativity, it is in the end a service, a product, most design is created with a purpose, if only to look pretty once you have it in your home. You don't have the freedom of artists if you're a designer. You can't just give someone an oil painting if he's demanding a web-design from you now, or can you? So it isn't always clearly only opinion. And the same can be said about many forms of entertainment.

I think the best way to get this point across is by humor.



* It just works