The Sino-American War: A Matter of Months Or Years?

[RetroAmerica]

Didn't Avellone discredit the GNN Transcript in the Bibles, because it contradicted several other things?

I know the bibles aren't canon, by Avellone's own words, but Bethesda has rolled with them in Fo3 and 4, and New Vegas used them as well. Even Feargus Urquhart described the Bibles as one of the source docs they gave to Bethesda to make their Fallout game, so apparently Obsidian does consider it canon as well.

At this point I don't think theres anything left to discredit the idea that it lasted from the winter of 2066, until the great war happened in October 2077. It was far more then just a few months.

Except for common sense, which discredits the whole damn thing. No one has still explained how the PRC could keep a protracted invasion going, even if they committed a majority of their forces....it just doesn't make sense, and though the Fallout World has some strange facets, even it is somewhat grounded in reality.

 

[DarkCorp]

Well, we have to ignore reality if the bible is to be taken into consideration.

So do we do it is the question?

I mean what if WW2 lasted another 6 years? Imagine the cost to economies, manpower, rationing, morale, destruction, etc. Hard to believe for me that any result besides a pyrrhic victory, if any.

 

[Someguy37]

Except for common sense, which discredits the whole damn thing. No one has still explained how the PRC could keep a protracted invasion going, even if they committed a majority of their forces....it just doesn't make sense, and though the Fallout World has some strange facets, even it is somewhat grounded in reality.

China is one of the few countries on the face of the earth that could actually match America's military.

They have nearly 3 times as many troops as America does, and were fairly good at jurry rigging vehicles like tanks out of mining equipment. Its not unreasonable to assume that the faltering America would be hard pressed to force back an army 3 times larger then it when they were in the resource wars.

 

[DarkCorp]

3x the mouths to feed, train, equip, deploy, etc.

lets not forget china had a lot more colonies than americas canadian occupation.

 

[Someguy37]

And the NCR is poorly equipped that they give most of their recruits little to no training, terrible arms and armor, and are beyond incompetent when it comes to managing any sort of long term battle, yet they were able to outdo the BoS, who use power armor, high tech laser weaponry, and has a life's worth of military grade training.

We already saw how a poorly equipped and resourced nation can hold its own against a far more technologically powerful force over an extended period of time.

 

[RetroAmerica]

Except for common sense, which discredits the whole damn thing. No one has still explained how the PRC could keep a protracted invasion going, even if they committed a majority of their forces....it just doesn't make sense, and though the Fallout World has some strange facets, even it is somewhat grounded in reality.

China is one of the few countries on the face of the earth that could actually match America's military.

They have nearly 3 times as many troops as America does, and were fairly good at jurry rigging vehicles like tanks out of mining equipment. Its not unreasonable to assume that the faltering America would be hard pressed to force back an army 3 times larger then it when they were in the resource wars.

In the grand scheme of things, manpower is not the end all/be all. Being able to replace one's losses is useful purely in drawn out wars of attrition, but considering that the United States logistically and technologically outmatched the PRC, I find it extremely dubious that that the PLA would have any upper hand, other than the element of surprise, which was attacking outside the Continental United States.

 

[DarkCorp]

It was made pretty clear that the NCR won by sheer numbers, I will concede that.

Thing is, as badass as the BoS was, their numbers were nowhere near the amount fielded by a standing army of a major superpower.

Look at the Korean war for example. The american-UN force was taken by surprise and had to retreat. They then counter-attqck at Inchon and ended up fighting the kpa forces to the chinese borders. When the chinese hordes came rushing down, the american-un force were again pushed back. However, they regrouped and fought back the pla-kpa forces back across the dmz line and i think even further.

Vietnam was a very special case. You had the draft which forced everyone, regardless if they could handle war, and threw them into Vietnam. You had the immensely un-popular diems running the place. Then you had american military planners who didn't handle the war very well.

Lastly, this all happened in a world where resources were not LITERALLY tapped out. The NVA/VC had major support from the PRC and the SU, both which were otherwise not engaged in other wars.

In Fallout, China, I believe had to hold down most of the se asian nations, taiwan and japan. This is not done cheaply.

 

[Someguy37]

In Fallout, China, I believe had to hold down most of the se asian nations, taiwan and japan. This is not done cheaply.

That's never mentioned as far as I am aware.

Given how badly the resource wars had destroyed Europe and the middle east, I doubt the other Asian countries outside China were in any position to resist them in any fashion. They realistically wouldn't have had to deal with them.

 

[The-Artist-64]

Except for common sense, which discredits the whole damn thing. No one has still explained how the PRC could keep a protracted invasion going, even if they committed a majority of their forces....it just doesn't make sense, and though the Fallout World has some strange facets, even it is somewhat grounded in reality.

China is one of the few countries on the face of the earth that could actually match America's military.

They have nearly 3 times as many troops as America does, and were fairly good at jurry rigging vehicles like tanks out of mining equipment. Its not unreasonable to assume that the faltering America would be hard pressed to force back an army 3 times larger then it when they were in the resource wars.

Keep in mind that our American armed forces are an entirely dedicated, very well trained volunteer force...China's army men, however, are mostly forced into it and aren't too well trained. Yes, they have more men, but ours are better.

We were even superior to the Chinese in nuclear weapons. Remember, Stalin and the Soviets refused to give Mao the blueprints for building an atomic bomb. He, of course, threw a hissy fit and forced his scientists to build their own models...which were inferior to Soviet and American designs. Of course, that's in the past now that we have ICBMs, but who's to say that the same type of thing didn't happen for other new weapons such as space weapons like B.O.M.B. 001?

I'd guess, once again, things were totally flipped. The USSR got some free market reforms in the 1970s, then started developing warm relationships with us once they realized how crazy the Chinese were. In the real world, the Chinese declared that the Soviets were essentially 'posers' and were their greatest enemy. The Soviets and Chinese are under different flavors of communism, so I doubt the two would continue to be allies.

Once the United Nations dissipated, the European Commonwealth and the Middle East fell apart and a bunch of countries started to go bankrupt, that likely gave China the freedom to invade anything they wanted, therefore marking the beginning their frightening plan of world domination. Then, of course, that backfired when their supply lines broke down, the United States developed power armor and the countries they annexed started fighting back with the help of Warsaw Pact/U.S. forces.

I'm definitely not a fan of the Soviet Union, but it's not like we hadn't banded together in the past to fight a bigger threat. Remember World War II, anyone?

 

[Someguy37]

Then, of course, that backfired when their supply lines broke down, the United States developed power armor and the countries they annexed started fighting back with the help of Warsaw Pact/U.S. forces

I would agree with you if we had any indication that this happened.

As far as I am aware, the last we hear about other nations is that Europe and the Middle East were left in ruins after the disastrous wars over the oil fields. Which left America to fight China on their own.

 

[The-Artist-64]

Then, of course, that backfired when their supply lines broke down, the United States developed power armor and the countries they annexed started fighting back with the help of Warsaw Pact/U.S. forces

I would agree with you if we had any indication that this happened.

As far as I am aware, the last we hear about other nations is that Europe and the Middle East were left in ruins after the disastrous wars over the oil fields. Which left America to fight China on their own.

...But not the Soviet Union. They still had a consulate in Los Angeles by 2077, indicating they were still alive and well, and it was the European Commonwealth that fell apart. The Soviet Union was likely unaffected by the fall of the Commonwealth and the destruction of the Middle East.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Then, of course, that backfired when their supply lines broke down, the United States developed power armor and the countries they annexed started fighting back with the help of Warsaw Pact/U.S. forces

I would agree with you if we had any indication that this happened.

As far as I am aware, the last we hear about other nations is that Europe and the Middle East were left in ruins after the disastrous wars over the oil fields. Which left America to fight China on their own.

...But not the Soviet Union. They still had a consulate in Los Angeles by 2077, indicating they were still alive and well, and it was the European Commonwealth that fell apart. The Soviet Union was likely unaffected by the fall of the Commonwealth and the destruction of the Middle East.

I'd say it was affected but not necessarily in a bad way.

 

[RetroAmerica]

For those who defend the long war theory, considering that the PLA was fielding modified mining equipment in the form of armor (I don't recall whether that was a Bethesda Contrivance or not), it begs a rather hard answer as to how they could have made any advances outside the beachhead that was established during their initial invasion?

Also, I never understood why Bethesda chose to show static artillery as if this was a remake of the "Guns of Navarone", since the USAF should have made quick work of them, as it appeared that the PRC had no actually dedicated air defense of any kind....

 

[Dr Fallout]

For those who defend the long war theory, considering that the PLA was fielding modified mining equipment in the form of armor (I don't recall whether that was a Bethesda Contrivance or not), it begs a rather hard answer as to how they could have made any advances outside the beachhead that was established during their initial invasion?

Also, I never understood why Bethesda chose to show static artillery as if this was a remake of the "Guns of Navarone", since the USAF should have made quick work of them, as it appeared that the PRC had no actually dedicated air defense of any kind....

The simulation has been shown as flawed many times you know.

 

[peadar87]

My guess is the Soviets were probably playing the long game. Wait for the US and China to wear each other down, then start flexing their own muscles.

Any conjecture based on real-world geopolitical events after 1945 is just that, conjecture. Unless it's backed up by the Fallout Bible or in-game sources, anything could have happened. I do, however, think it's unlikely that either the US or China was in a full military alliance with the USSR, without a single mention in-game or in the Fallout Bible. This isn't a small entity here.

 

[The-Artist-64]

My guess is the Soviets were probably playing the long game. Wait for the US and China to wear each other down, then start flexing their own muscles.

Any conjecture based on real-world geopolitical events after 1945 is just that, conjecture. Unless it's backed up by the Fallout Bible or in-game sources, anything could have happened. I do, however, think it's unlikely that either the US or China was in a full military alliance with the USSR, without a single mention in-game or in the Fallout Bible. This isn't a small entity here.

Very true. But, again, it probably wasn't an official alliance, rather two countries with a common enemy; one that, if left on its own any longer, would invade the entire world. Neither the USSR nor the USA wanted that- think World War II. The Resource Wars ARE World War III, after all.

Also, if we disregard Bethesda's shoddy so-called 'Fallout sequels', we know very little about the pre-war world. A lot of history was lost to the war, and almost no one is still alive to tell the tale of the old world and how it fell. What we know about the Resource Wars is likely the tip of a huge iceberg.

 

[peadar87]

My guess is the Soviets were probably playing the long game. Wait for the US and China to wear each other down, then start flexing their own muscles.

Any conjecture based on real-world geopolitical events after 1945 is just that, conjecture. Unless it's backed up by the Fallout Bible or in-game sources, anything could have happened. I do, however, think it's unlikely that either the US or China was in a full military alliance with the USSR, without a single mention in-game or in the Fallout Bible. This isn't a small entity here.

Very true. But, again, it probably wasn't an official alliance, rather two countries with a common enemy; one that, if left on its own any longer, would invade the entire world. Neither the USSR nor the USA wanted that- think World War II. The Resource Wars ARE World War III, after all.

Also, if we disregard Bethesda's shoddy so-called 'Fallout sequels', we know very little about the pre-war world. A lot of history was lost to the war, and almost no one is still alive to tell the tale of the old world and how it fell. What we know about the Resource Wars is likely the tip of a huge iceberg.

Or they could have been playing both sides off against the other, trying to keep the resource wars going. A little money to a counter-Chinese insurgency in Thailand, some arms to Canadian freedom fighters...

 

[The-Artist-64]

My guess is the Soviets were probably playing the long game. Wait for the US and China to wear each other down, then start flexing their own muscles.

Any conjecture based on real-world geopolitical events after 1945 is just that, conjecture. Unless it's backed up by the Fallout Bible or in-game sources, anything could have happened. I do, however, think it's unlikely that either the US or China was in a full military alliance with the USSR, without a single mention in-game or in the Fallout Bible. This isn't a small entity here.

Very true. But, again, it probably wasn't an official alliance, rather two countries with a common enemy; one that, if left on its own any longer, would invade the entire world. Neither the USSR nor the USA wanted that- think World War II. The Resource Wars ARE World War III, after all.

Also, if we disregard Bethesda's shoddy so-called 'Fallout sequels', we know very little about the pre-war world. A lot of history was lost to the war, and almost no one is still alive to tell the tale of the old world and how it fell. What we know about the Resource Wars is likely the tip of a huge iceberg.

Or they could have been playing both sides off against the other, trying to keep the resource wars going. A little money to a counter-Chinese insurgency in Thailand, some arms to Canadian freedom fighters...

I'm sure something like that was happening, but on the Canadians, wouldn't American troops be 'interested' to find insurgents armed with SOVIET AK-47s? I think that would be enough to boot their consulate out of the country.

I always thought that the Canadians raided American arms depots. However, I'm sure the Russians were still doing something along those lines- maybe, for instance, they were the ones responsible for New Plague and, to keep their cover, blamed it on the Chinese?

A little off topic here, but does anyone remember that ad in the Fallout manual about the 'Super Ebola Virus'? Sounds like another name for the New Plague.

 

[RetroAmerica]

It's entirely possible that the KGB or the GRU were providing material aid to left wing dissidents in Canada. Also, even if US personnel did find the Canadian dissidents to be carrying Soviet made weapons, that in itself, is by no means grounds for expelling an ambassador.

 

[The-Artist-64]

It's entirely possible that the KGB or the GRU were providing material aid to left wing dissidents in Canada. Also, even if US personnel did find the Canadian dissidents to be carrying Soviet made weapons, that in itself, is by no means grounds for expelling an ambassador.

In times of war, sure it is.

Also... *In the Master's voice* Do you have proof?