The Sino-American War: A Matter of Months Or Years?

[Dr Fallout]

You realize you don't need to deal directly with the USSR to get Soviet weaponry?

 

[The-Artist-64]

You realize you don't need to deal directly with the USSR to get Soviet weaponry?

Where else would you get 500+ Soviet weapons?

 

[Dr Fallout]

You realize you don't need to deal directly with the USSR to get Soviet weaponry?

Where else would you get 500+ Soviet weapons?

Black market, various other countries that produce knock-offs and China.

 

[The-Artist-64]

You realize you don't need to deal directly with the USSR to get Soviet weaponry?

Where else would you get 500+ Soviet weapons?

Black market, various other countries that produce knock-offs and China.

1. Would the black market really get their hands on that many guns? If this were so, why blame it on the black market when you have a more obvious answer right in front of you?

2. It's easy to tell a knock off from the real thing. Also, many countries went bankrupt before they could even acquire the resources to produce knock-offs.

3. And where does China get their AK-47s?

I seriously doubt the Soviet Union would be smart or organized enough to orchestrate something so grand. They were probably close to falling apart before the war- keep in mind that most nations were bankrupted by the lack of fossil fuels. The fact that they were communist probably created even more strife on the people. If the U.S. was struck by huge resource riots, such protest was likely much, much worse in the USSR. Plus, the U.S. would find out through interrogation of the Canadian freedom fighters.

 

[farchettiensis]

Interesting topic. Firstly, we should hypothetically assume that both of them, China and the US, have enough nukes to destroy each other after a few exchanges. The timeline, according to the Bible, says that the US will start its annexation of Canada in 2067, and have it finished by 2076. However, American troops are deployed to China by 2074. So, by the time there is a ongoing war on with Canada (2067-2076), the US makes the decision to divert its resources to take on China, but this seems implausible, given we know very little of the objective of this offensive.

As early as 2067, one year after China's attack, the US seems to have successfully reversed the momentum, due to its research on and use of Power Armor, where China lags significantly behind. (Though I'm unsure how PA has the power to destroy towns? Maybe by their presumable ability to carry heavy weaponry?). So, what happened between 2067 and 2074, when US attacked China's mainland? Were there other attempted land invasions on US soil? Were there air/sea (like cruiser attacks) offensives on the US? Did the US deploy its navy to nearby China's waters? How long after the US successfully implemented PA did the Chinese sustain their offensive in Alaska? Presumably, we are talking convention, large-scale wars. How do you even supply such a scale in a place like Alaska? This means China would have had to supply it through Air/Sea, or search for other places to invade, where it successfully build supply lines and build-in to launch other attacks.

Anyway, thinking conventionally, if the US had the upper hand on land warfare by 2067, I think that the war there would have been relatively short and quite brutal. The US, I assume, would not give China the time to react to this innovation, and China wouldn't have the time build its own PA, nowhere near the US standards by then, at least. The US, would have materiel superiority, safer supply lines, better logistic, better support on every front, so I don't see any reason why this would become a protracted conflict, except if China could dig itself in hard terrain on the Alaskan front. I assume that the main front is in South Central Alaska (where Anchorage is), I really don't know much about it, but it seems to be a harsh place, mountains and cold weather. Even if the Chinese managed to build in pockets of resistance to recover after its offensive lost momentum, how long would it be able to supply such a massive effort? I assume that the US armed forces would made every effort to prevent that from happening.

If the US couldn't immediately take these pockets out, lack of supplies and harsh environmental conditions would, so I guess it's somewhat plausible that the US would choose to annex Canada, diverting its resources? I'm not sure - do they have PA in such a massive scale to take on Canada? What other kind of mechanized armored vehicles do they have? Now, we know by 2070 fusion-driven cars became available, so military technology must have been available earlier on some scale. Plus, we need to assume that China won't be launching any other massive offensive anytime in between, or the US would be facing a difficult situation. If China was actually defeated in Alaska, how would it react to this? If they made such a rash decision to invade the US, I think they may be a little desperate and might be willing to try other offensives, rather than just sitting on the mainland. It's hard to imagine a war in such a scale - think of the logistics, how would transport millions of soldiers and supply them across the Pacific, with two of the most powerful navies in the world (presumably) fighting each other? A difficult feat, I'd think. China might have had the element of surprise in Anchorage, but not anymore. Well, I guess we also have to imagine how technology would evolve in Fallout's alternative world... with our spying technologies, a 'surprise' of this scale couldn't be achieved.

Now... the Bible says that Alaska was reclaimed only in 2077. I find that hard to imagine, unless China had a safe grasp on sea/air. So, the US has three fronts: Alaska, China's mainland, and Canada. That just doesn't add up for me.

Now, this is all assuming conventional war. But we need to consider a doctrine called MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction. There is a reason there aren't wars on the scale the world has seen before WWII. This is why it is VERY implausible that there would have been such a drawn out war, as the Bible says (2066-2077). We have to consider how the world was by then, and other actors. In a world with scarce resources, how could an intercontinental total war be sustained?

IMO, an 11 years war is not plausible.

 

[The-Artist-64]

Interesting topic. Firstly, we should hypothetically assume that both of them, China and the US, have enough nukes to destroy each other after a few exchanges. The timeline, according to the Bible, says that the US will start its annexation of Canada in 2067, and have it finished by 2076. However, American troops are deployed to China by 2074. So, by the time there is a ongoing war on with Canada (2067-2076), the US makes the decision to divert its resources to take on China, but this seems implausible, given we know very little of the objective of this offensive.

As early as 2067, one year after China's attack, the US seems to have successfully reversed the momentum, due to its research on and use of Power Armor, where China lags significantly behind. (Though I'm unsure how PA has the power to destroy towns? Maybe by their presumable ability to carry heavy weaponry?). So, what happened between 2067 and 2074, when US attacked China's mainland? Were there other attempted land invasions on US soil? Were there air/sea (like cruiser attacks) offensives on the US? Did the US deploy its navy to nearby China's waters? How long after the US successfully implemented PA did the Chinese sustain their offensive in Alaska? Presumably, we are talking convention, large-scale wars. How do you even supply such a scale in a place like Alaska? This means China would have had to supply it through Air/Sea, or search for other places to invade, where it successfully build supply lines and build-in to launch other attacks.

Anyway, thinking conventionally, if the US had the upper hand on land warfare by 2067, I think that the war there would have been relatively short and quite brutal. The US, I assume, would not give China the time to react to this innovation, and China wouldn't have the time build its own PA, nowhere near the US standards by then, at least. The US, would have materiel superiority, safer supply lines, better logistic, better support on every front, so I don't see any reason why this would become a protracted conflict, except if China could dig itself in hard terrain on the Alaskan front. I assume that the main front is in South Central Alaska (where Anchorage is), I really don't know much about it, but it seems to be a harsh place, mountains and cold weather. Even if the Chinese managed to build in pockets of resistance to recover after its offensive lost momentum, how long would it be able to supply such a massive effort? I assume that the US armed forces would made every effort to prevent that from happening.

If the US couldn't immediately take these pockets out, lack of supplies and harsh environmental conditions would, so I guess it's somewhat plausible that the US would choose to annex Canada, diverting its resources? I'm not sure - do they have PA in such a massive scale to take on Canada? What other kind of mechanized armored vehicles do they have? Now, we know by 2070 fusion-driven cars became available, so military technology must have been available earlier on some scale. Plus, we need to assume that China won't be launching any other massive offensive anytime in between, or the US would be facing a difficult situation. If China was actually defeated in Alaska, how would it react to this? If they made such a rash decision to invade the US, I think they may be a little desperate and might be willing to try other offensives, rather than just sitting on the mainland. It's hard to imagine a war in such a scale - think of the logistics, how would transport millions of soldiers and supply them across the Pacific, with two of the most powerful navies in the world (presumably) fighting each other? A difficult feat, I'd think. China might have had the element of surprise in Anchorage, but not anymore. Well, I guess we also have to imagine how technology would evolve in Fallout's alternative world... with our spying technologies, a 'surprise' of this scale couldn't be achieved.

Now... the Bible says that Alaska was reclaimed only in 2077. I find that hard to imagine, unless China had a safe grasp on sea/air. So, the US has three fronts: Alaska, China's mainland, and Canada. That just doesn't add up for me.

Now, this is all assuming conventional war. But we need to consider a doctrine called MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction. There is a reason there aren't wars on the scale the world has seen before WWII. This is why it is VERY implausible that there would have been such a drawn out war, as the Bible says (2066-2077). We have to consider how the world was by then, and other actors. In a world with scarce resources, how could an intercontinental total war be sustained?

IMO, an 11 years war is not plausible.

Frankly, the Resource Wars is just World War III under a different name. Also, there have been plenty of very long wars throughout history.

One must keep in mind that NO belligerent got through this war safely. The world was on a Mad Max level breakdown of society shortly before the war finally broke out, partly due to the fact that nations weren't meant to go to war for that long. Remember Denver? Resource riots brought the whole city down. Who's saying D.C. or NYC didn't see even bigger protests? Nations can go through long wars, yes, but they'll come out pretty broken- and that matches up nicely with the pre-war world of Fallout.

Another factor to consider is that there were no significant major world conflicts, aside from minor proxy wars such as Vietnam or the invasion of Mexico, since World War II. That gives the world's superpowers 107 years to build vast arsenals of weapons, both conventional and nuclear, before the Resource Wars. In such an advanced age of incredible technology, such a war is feasible.

 

[Dr Fallout]

You realize you don't need to deal directly with the USSR to get Soviet weaponry?

Where else would you get 500+ Soviet weapons?

Black market, various other countries that produce knock-offs and China.

1. Would the black market really get their hands on that many guns? If this were so, why blame it on the black market when you have a more obvious answer right in front of you?

2. It's easy to tell a knock off from the real thing. Also, many countries went bankrupt before they could even acquire the resources to produce knock-offs.

3. And where does China get their AK-47s?

I seriously doubt the Soviet Union would be smart or organized enough to orchestrate something so grand. They were probably close to falling apart before the war- keep in mind that most nations were bankrupted by the lack of fossil fuels. The fact that they were communist probably created even more strife on the people. If the U.S. was struck by huge resource riots, such protest was likely much, much worse in the USSR. Plus, the U.S. would find out through interrogation of the Canadian freedom fighters.

1. Yes. Very much so, or otherwise that means Russia personally funded every fucking Cartel, war torn country and terrorist group on the planet. Because the black market is where it's most commonly bought from. How else do the Drug Cartels get their guns?

2. Not always. While their will be minor differences it will look generally the same. AK-47's were popular because they were easy to mass produce and make. The Gun Runners can make them easy, and so can most gun makers.

3. What I meant is that these groups can get their weapons from China, not the USSR.

Yeah, the Russians can't fund terrorist communist groups at all... (Sarcasm)

So? Even if they find out what are they going to do?

 

[The-Artist-64]

You realize you don't need to deal directly with the USSR to get Soviet weaponry?

Where else would you get 500+ Soviet weapons?

Black market, various other countries that produce knock-offs and China.

1. Would the black market really get their hands on that many guns? If this were so, why blame it on the black market when you have a more obvious answer right in front of you?

2. It's easy to tell a knock off from the real thing. Also, many countries went bankrupt before they could even acquire the resources to produce knock-offs.

3. And where does China get their AK-47s?

I seriously doubt the Soviet Union would be smart or organized enough to orchestrate something so grand. They were probably close to falling apart before the war- keep in mind that most nations were bankrupted by the lack of fossil fuels. The fact that they were communist probably created even more strife on the people. If the U.S. was struck by huge resource riots, such protest was likely much, much worse in the USSR. Plus, the U.S. would find out through interrogation of the Canadian freedom fighters.

1. Yes. Very much so, or otherwise that means Russia personally funded every fucking Cartel, war torn country and terrorist group on the planet. Because the black market is where it's most commonly bought from. How else do the Drug Cartels get their guns?

2. Not always. While their will be minor differences it will look generally the same. AK-47's were popular because they were easy to mass produce and make. The Gun Runners can make them easy, and so can most gun makers.

3. What I meant is that these groups can get their weapons from China, not the USSR.

Yeah, the Russians can't fund terrorist communist groups at all... (Sarcasm)

So? Even if they find out what are they going to do?

Once they find out, the consulate is removed from U.S. soil. As a consulate canonically exists by the time of the war, your argument is invalidated.

 

[Dr Fallout]

You realize you don't need to deal directly with the USSR to get Soviet weaponry?

Where else would you get 500+ Soviet weapons?

Black market, various other countries that produce knock-offs and China.

1. Would the black market really get their hands on that many guns? If this were so, why blame it on the black market when you have a more obvious answer right in front of you?

2. It's easy to tell a knock off from the real thing. Also, many countries went bankrupt before they could even acquire the resources to produce knock-offs.

3. And where does China get their AK-47s?

I seriously doubt the Soviet Union would be smart or organized enough to orchestrate something so grand. They were probably close to falling apart before the war- keep in mind that most nations were bankrupted by the lack of fossil fuels. The fact that they were communist probably created even more strife on the people. If the U.S. was struck by huge resource riots, such protest was likely much, much worse in the USSR. Plus, the U.S. would find out through interrogation of the Canadian freedom fighters.

1. Yes. Very much so, or otherwise that means Russia personally funded every fucking Cartel, war torn country and terrorist group on the planet. Because the black market is where it's most commonly bought from. How else do the Drug Cartels get their guns?

2. Not always. While their will be minor differences it will look generally the same. AK-47's were popular because they were easy to mass produce and make. The Gun Runners can make them easy, and so can most gun makers.

3. What I meant is that these groups can get their weapons from China, not the USSR.

Yeah, the Russians can't fund terrorist communist groups at all... (Sarcasm)

So? Even if they find out what are they going to do?

Once they find out, the consulate is removed from U.S. soil. As a consulate canonically exists by the time of the war, your argument is invalidated.

You're basically throwing my entire argument on the assumption that the US would do that. Before I continue and say why they wouldn't do that, let's discuss how would they even know. Interrogating rebels is a great idea, but it's doubtful the average terrorist knows without a doubt where his weapons come from. Unless they capture a leader it's not obvious they'll find out.

Also by that logic, America would have kicked out the consulate during the Cold War, when Russia obviously funded various anti-american groups. By using history as a very apt comparison it wouldn't have happened!

 

[The-Artist-64]

You realize you don't need to deal directly with the USSR to get Soviet weaponry?

Where else would you get 500+ Soviet weapons?

Black market, various other countries that produce knock-offs and China.

1. Would the black market really get their hands on that many guns? If this were so, why blame it on the black market when you have a more obvious answer right in front of you?

2. It's easy to tell a knock off from the real thing. Also, many countries went bankrupt before they could even acquire the resources to produce knock-offs.

3. And where does China get their AK-47s?

I seriously doubt the Soviet Union would be smart or organized enough to orchestrate something so grand. They were probably close to falling apart before the war- keep in mind that most nations were bankrupted by the lack of fossil fuels. The fact that they were communist probably created even more strife on the people. If the U.S. was struck by huge resource riots, such protest was likely much, much worse in the USSR. Plus, the U.S. would find out through interrogation of the Canadian freedom fighters.

1. Yes. Very much so, or otherwise that means Russia personally funded every fucking Cartel, war torn country and terrorist group on the planet. Because the black market is where it's most commonly bought from. How else do the Drug Cartels get their guns?

2. Not always. While their will be minor differences it will look generally the same. AK-47's were popular because they were easy to mass produce and make. The Gun Runners can make them easy, and so can most gun makers.

3. What I meant is that these groups can get their weapons from China, not the USSR.

Yeah, the Russians can't fund terrorist communist groups at all... (Sarcasm)

So? Even if they find out what are they going to do?

Once they find out, the consulate is removed from U.S. soil. As a consulate canonically exists by the time of the war, your argument is invalidated.

You're basically throwing my entire argument on the assumption that the US would do that. Before I continue and say why they wouldn't do that, let's discuss how would they even know. Interrogating rebels is a great idea, but it's doubtful the average terrorist knows without a doubt where his weapons come from. Unless they capture a leader it's not obvious they'll find out.

Also by that logic, America would have kicked out the consulate during the Cold War, when Russia obviously funded various anti-american groups. By using history as a very apt comparison it wouldn't have happened!

Congratulations, you win! May your victory this day be remembered for years to come.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Did I...

Oh thanks... Huzzah!

Though I still like your interpretation of the Fallout Pre-War universe. Not in all areas though.

 

[ZigzagPX4]

Congratulations, you win! May your victory this day be remembered for years to come.

View attachment 2501

Did I...

Oh thanks... Huzzah!

Though I still like your interpretation of the Fallout Pre-War universe. Not in all areas though.

A lore-based argument and/or exchange of ideas ending peacefully on the Internet? About a video game? Blasphemy! How'd this happen?

Oh right, I'm not on Reddit.

 

[Khannis]

Interesting topic. Firstly, we should hypothetically assume that both of them, China and the US, have enough nukes to destroy each other after a few exchanges. The timeline, according to the Bible, says that the US will start its annexation of Canada in 2067, and have it finished by 2076. However, American troops are deployed to China by 2074. So, by the time there is a ongoing war on with Canada (2067-2076), the US makes the decision to divert its resources to take on China, but this seems implausible, given we know very little of the objective of this offensive.

As early as 2067, one year after China's attack, the US seems to have successfully reversed the momentum, due to its research on and use of Power Armor, where China lags significantly behind. (Though I'm unsure how PA has the power to destroy towns? Maybe by their presumable ability to carry heavy weaponry?). So, what happened between 2067 and 2074, when US attacked China's mainland? Were there other attempted land invasions on US soil? Were there air/sea (like cruiser attacks) offensives on the US? Did the US deploy its navy to nearby China's waters? How long after the US successfully implemented PA did the Chinese sustain their offensive in Alaska? Presumably, we are talking convention, large-scale wars. How do you even supply such a scale in a place like Alaska? This means China would have had to supply it through Air/Sea, or search for other places to invade, where it successfully build supply lines and build-in to launch other attacks.

Anyway, thinking conventionally, if the US had the upper hand on land warfare by 2067, I think that the war there would have been relatively short and quite brutal. The US, I assume, would not give China the time to react to this innovation, and China wouldn't have the time build its own PA, nowhere near the US standards by then, at least. The US, would have materiel superiority, safer supply lines, better logistic, better support on every front, so I don't see any reason why this would become a protracted conflict, except if China could dig itself in hard terrain on the Alaskan front. I assume that the main front is in South Central Alaska (where Anchorage is), I really don't know much about it, but it seems to be a harsh place, mountains and cold weather. Even if the Chinese managed to build in pockets of resistance to recover after its offensive lost momentum, how long would it be able to supply such a massive effort? I assume that the US armed forces would made every effort to prevent that from happening.

If the US couldn't immediately take these pockets out, lack of supplies and harsh environmental conditions would, so I guess it's somewhat plausible that the US would choose to annex Canada, diverting its resources? I'm not sure - do they have PA in such a massive scale to take on Canada? What other kind of mechanized armored vehicles do they have? Now, we know by 2070 fusion-driven cars became available, so military technology must have been available earlier on some scale. Plus, we need to assume that China won't be launching any other massive offensive anytime in between, or the US would be facing a difficult situation. If China was actually defeated in Alaska, how would it react to this? If they made such a rash decision to invade the US, I think they may be a little desperate and might be willing to try other offensives, rather than just sitting on the mainland. It's hard to imagine a war in such a scale - think of the logistics, how would transport millions of soldiers and supply them across the Pacific, with two of the most powerful navies in the world (presumably) fighting each other? A difficult feat, I'd think. China might have had the element of surprise in Anchorage, but not anymore. Well, I guess we also have to imagine how technology would evolve in Fallout's alternative world... with our spying technologies, a 'surprise' of this scale couldn't be achieved.

Now... the Bible says that Alaska was reclaimed only in 2077. I find that hard to imagine, unless China had a safe grasp on sea/air. So, the US has three fronts: Alaska, China's mainland, and Canada. That just doesn't add up for me.

Now, this is all assuming conventional war. But we need to consider a doctrine called MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction. There is a reason there aren't wars on the scale the world has seen before WWII. This is why it is VERY implausible that there would have been such a drawn out war, as the Bible says (2066-2077). We have to consider how the world was by then, and other actors. In a world with scarce resources, how could an intercontinental total war be sustained?

IMO, an 11 years war is not plausible.

I always assumed most of the war was not about the Alaska front, but the invasion of China itself. Even though by 2067 the US had turned the tide with power armor, there are many issues that could contribute to significant problems with power projection across the pacific, especially an invasion force against a well defended country. I assumed they got bogged down to a grinding war where power armor slowly but surely gave the US the edge, and nuclear holocaust became more and more likely in direct proportion to the Chinese government's desperation.

 

[RetroAmerica]

I'm curious as to speculation on what sort of Main Battle Tanks that both sides were using?

 

[Dr Fallout]

I'm curious as to speculation on what sort of Main Battle Tanks that both sides were using?

The Americans wouldn't have to use as many, due to the Power Armour.

 

[RetroAmerica]

I'm curious as to speculation on what sort of Main Battle Tanks that both sides were using?

The Americans wouldn't have to use as many, due to the Power Armour.

As I recall, Power Armor was supposed to be a frame to carry heavier ordnance but I'm not sure that it would be able to go muzzle to muzzle with a Chinese T-55?

 

[Dr Fallout]

I'm curious as to speculation on what sort of Main Battle Tanks that both sides were using?

The Americans wouldn't have to use as many, due to the Power Armour.

As I recall, Power Armor was supposed to be a frame to carry heavier ordnance but I'm not sure that it would be able to go muzzle to muzzle with a Chinese T-55?

I think it could, it's not a far stretch.

 

[RetroAmerica]

I'm curious as to speculation on what sort of Main Battle Tanks that both sides were using?

The Americans wouldn't have to use as many, due to the Power Armour.

As I recall, Power Armor was supposed to be a frame to carry heavier ordnance but I'm not sure that it would be able to go muzzle to muzzle with a Chinese T-55?

I think it could, it's not a far stretch.

Well from at least what was mentioned in Van Buren the soldier that provides an escort to the Vault, informs you he's with a Mechanized Cavalry Regiment, which means they're probably acting primarily in a reconnaissance role, with a secondary role as either anti-armor or some form of "dragoon" style role.

 

[peadar87]

I think Power Armour would really come into its own in urban warfare situations, where you could carry heavy ordinance from building to building, going places no tank could go, virtually invulnerable to all but direct hits from high-calibre armour-piercing rounds, or massive explosions. In open battle, power armour would be sitting ducks against anything like a main battle tank or attack helicopter, which could just target them from range, while also being able to move far faster and carry heavier weapons and more sophisticated targeting systems.

It makes sense for clearing out enemy strongholds and bunkers as well, which could be why they turned the tide of the Yangtze campaign.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I'm curious as to speculation on what sort of Main Battle Tanks that both sides were using?

The Americans wouldn't have to use as many, due to the Power Armour.

As I recall, Power Armor was supposed to be a frame to carry heavier ordnance but I'm not sure that it would be able to go muzzle to muzzle with a Chinese T-55?

I think it could, it's not a far stretch.

Well from at least what was mentioned in Van Buren the soldier that provides an escort to the Vault, informs you he's with a Mechanized Cavalry Regiment, which means they're probably acting primarily in a reconnaissance role, with a secondary role as either anti-armor or some form of "dragoon" style role.

Cavalry has always been used as shock attacks, meaning that the Power Armour were meant to be used in shock tactics, flanking the opponents and leaving only dust with their heavy firepower.