Heh, true. I don't like Caesar as he is shown in New Vegas. He doesn't seem to be as charismatic, as he should be.
The verdict on Caesar's Legion (minor early-game spoilers)?
- Thread starter Jidai Geki
- Start date
While I could understand a bit of his ideology, the fact that he did not see the use of his forces using more advanced weaponry and technology they take from the enemy or find in their own territory seemed rather strange.
Having men loyal to the point that they walk into an enemy bullet storm is one thing, wasting soldiers here and there when you could have prevented it with better weapons and devices is plain stupid.
You don't have to become to depended on them like House or the NCR does, but if you know they have better equipped forces, not to mention the BOS with its energy weaponry, you could try to meet them on more equal terms while you try to take their advantages away from them.
Having men loyal to the point that they walk into an enemy bullet storm is one thing, wasting soldiers here and there when you could have prevented it with better weapons and devices is plain stupid.
You don't have to become to depended on them like House or the NCR does, but if you know they have better equipped forces, not to mention the BOS with its energy weaponry, you could try to meet them on more equal terms while you try to take their advantages away from them.
Looking at some of the design document bits included in the official guide CE, at least they decided not to include one of the silly ideas, which was that Caesar claims that he was given all of these ideas by the god Mars and he has his people kill anyone who tries to claim that they are actually based on some ancient empire. In the game itself, he's pretty open about basing it on ancient Rome.
SomeBritishDude
First time out of the vault
The only plus side I can see to the Legion is from some bits of pieces of companion dialogue. Legion owned terrortory seems to be much better regulated and controlled than NCR. If they'd pushed for this more, maybe made the NCR seem more incompitent than they already are then they would have been a more interesting faction, but as it is they're not much better than the Enclave from F3.
They could have very easily been an interesting dilema; Is sacrificing your freedoms worth the protection, or would you rather be under the NCR who are democratic but incompitent and thinly spread.
It's just another one of the things I'll add on to the long list of problems with New Vegas that lead me to one conclusion that's stopping me from loving it; the games only half finished.
They could have very easily been an interesting dilema; Is sacrificing your freedoms worth the protection, or would you rather be under the NCR who are democratic but incompitent and thinly spread.
It's just another one of the things I'll add on to the long list of problems with New Vegas that lead me to one conclusion that's stopping me from loving it; the games only half finished.
Lanius
Monster of the East
Ave Caesar! (why Caesar is humanity's saviour)
I am so fascinated with his "Pax Romana" speech; explaining his ideology, his reasons for doing what he does, his intentions. And he is absolutely right about it all. I really think Caesar is the last, best hope for humanity.
The NCR, this corrupt obstacle, reflecting pre-Great War governments, and Mr. House, this depraved individual, are the real evil factions. Prostitution, gambling, gluttony, venality, greed, envy, all this evil upholded by them that lead to the Great War in the first place. If the NCR or Mr. House have their way, there will be another nuclear war in a few decades. They represent all that is wrong with humanity (and all that was wrong before the Great War).
Vulpes Inculta is correct about Nipton. The mayor sold his own people, the NCR, the Powder Gangers and his integrity for caps (GREED). Typical pre-Great War human behaviour that must be extirpated. Nipton mayor = NCR = Mr. House.
Of course, the treatment of women in Caesar's Legion is despicable. That can be changed, though. The innate decadence and depravery of the NCR, Mr. House and the likes cannot...
PS: It is no coincidence that Caesar was with the Follower's of the Apocalypse. He was a humanist from the beginning, and still is, more than ever now that he is Caesar.
I am so fascinated with his "Pax Romana" speech; explaining his ideology, his reasons for doing what he does, his intentions. And he is absolutely right about it all. I really think Caesar is the last, best hope for humanity.
The NCR, this corrupt obstacle, reflecting pre-Great War governments, and Mr. House, this depraved individual, are the real evil factions. Prostitution, gambling, gluttony, venality, greed, envy, all this evil upholded by them that lead to the Great War in the first place. If the NCR or Mr. House have their way, there will be another nuclear war in a few decades. They represent all that is wrong with humanity (and all that was wrong before the Great War).
Vulpes Inculta is correct about Nipton. The mayor sold his own people, the NCR, the Powder Gangers and his integrity for caps (GREED). Typical pre-Great War human behaviour that must be extirpated. Nipton mayor = NCR = Mr. House.
Of course, the treatment of women in Caesar's Legion is despicable. That can be changed, though. The innate decadence and depravery of the NCR, Mr. House and the likes cannot...
PS: It is no coincidence that Caesar was with the Follower's of the Apocalypse. He was a humanist from the beginning, and still is, more than ever now that he is Caesar.
Brother None said:
Lexx said:
Well, thx god I am not the only one which is thinking that way. And for a moment I was thinking something was wrong with me. I really dont understand how anyone would think about the Legion as a "gray" faction or a group with a lot od debth in that matter since yeah like someone said they are more similar to simple comic book vilains then interesting characters. The only thing I liked about the legion was the camp which to me personaly feelt better then what the NCR had. Even though when I asked my self how they support them self (but one could always assume they get suported by the land behind the colorado river). At least with the NCR you have a lot of members which either are true to the NCR, question their motiviations or just try to survive while it seems everyone and everybody in the legion is a grunt without brain. Missed the diversity here.
Jidai Geki
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Yeah, but they crucify people. That's pretty fucked up. Also, you get positive karma for shuffling them off the mortal coil, if I remember correctly.
Re: Ave Caesar! (why Caesar is humanity's saviour)
I'm pretty sure that the mayor of Nipton was a Powder Ganger. A criminal, which was in an NCR correctional facility. Shows that they do care about crime in their territories.
Also, read what the Vault has to say about how things are in Arizona concerning women. Also, women are inferior to males physically. Which for obvious reasons make them inferior in general, in the Legion's society.
It's not like they actively encourage prostitution, gambling, gluttony, venality, greed or envy. Although it represents what is/was wrong with society, people will be people. There will always be evil. It's inevitable.Lanius said:
I'm pretty sure that the mayor of Nipton was a Powder Ganger. A criminal, which was in an NCR correctional facility. Shows that they do care about crime in their territories.
Also, read what the Vault has to say about how things are in Arizona concerning women. Also, women are inferior to males physically. Which for obvious reasons make them inferior in general, in the Legion's society.
Requete
First time out of the vault
[spoiler:7f641f3089]Mayor of Nipton is indeed scumbag from Hub NCR, and he had this position even before the great escape it's all in his diary. Plus there're the Crimson Caravans exterminating the competition from Cas quest. NCR is not only corrupt but highly inaficient just talk to Ghost or any of NCR ground commanders my diplo-sniper team was the only one kicking the Legion's but wtf. Mr House is the Carion Lord on the Golden throne he has to die for the freedom of humanity; Yes Man ending is anarchy. But on the other hand legion quest line is retarted to the core; I can undertand peace throu war mentality or abandoment of postmodern feminism but backing the canibalism or blowing the BoS (Which is natural ally for Legion since they're only interested in high-tech which Legion don't need anyway and they do hate NCR) is making them cartonish evil.[/spoiler:7f641f3089] So I was forced by game to back NCR and end the game with sour taste in mouth which is fine. There're no good endings in real Fallout. 
At no point in Roman history did they treat women the way Caesar's Legion does. Yes, women were not citizens, but pre-marriage, they had the social status of their father's house, and after marriage their husbands. Women is caesar's legion are bought and sold, forced to perform backbreaking labor, and oppressed even beyond what the Taliban does. Taliban at least put up the pretense of "protecting" women. (as horrible and ugly and utterly disgusting that form of protection takes) The legion's system just doesn't work. The first officer to have a daughter is going to rebel. Heck, any Centurion outside of Caesar's direct influence is more likely to rebel or desert than continue serving him. I put more about this in another thread.lmao said:
The only redeeming quality were told about the legion is that legion territory has no raiders, so trading caravans are safe.
With regards to uniforms that people were mentioning, you have to remember, that the uniforms are basically football pads with some extra leather. At first, I thought this was highly unlikely, I mean, equipping an entire army with football pads? But then I remembered that the Legion comes out of Texas and Arizona and thought "OK, I can see that."
What I like about Legion is that it points out the exact flaws of current systems (which the NCR represents). It unites people of all "quality" (if saying this about people is appropriate), from scums and gangers to honest people under the flag, where they exist, without honor, watching their loved ones die, fearing only for their hides. The Legion has rules. There are more or less barbaric, but they are there. NCR is about annexing all kinds of garbage to get stronger, and sure, there's trigger-happy police, there are laws, but ultimately it doesn't count one bit. People are living their way, whatever they like, from scum to good guys, and the government just does whatever it feels like. The government AND the people are not connected, often feel like two sides of conflict (people bitching about government taxing them or making stupid laws), while people of Caesar in fact ARE loyal to Caesar and his doing, united under same goals.
Legion still sucks as an option because it's barbaric slaver group, but it has what NCR doesn't. I dislike both groups myself.
Legion still sucks as an option because it's barbaric slaver group, but it has what NCR doesn't. I dislike both groups myself.
are the people really loyal to ideals of the legion or just simply rather "believe" in Kai-zar ? Have the centurions and rulers really been always loyal to rome ? Pompeus (historical figure) might beg to differ, eventually.
I personaly think the people care less about the legion then more about their leader. if hes gone, they will just continue to become seperated tribes again like before. You just cant remove everything from people in a few decades. Not even the romans achieved that in centuries as it was a German tribal which grown up in rome becoming a respected knight that caused one of the empires bigest defeat known as the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest. Without their leader it is very realistic to assume the Legion would start a civil war particularly when you consider how many "charistmatic" people are concetrated around Kayzar Söse either as his guards or generals.
I personaly think the people care less about the legion then more about their leader. if hes gone, they will just continue to become seperated tribes again like before. You just cant remove everything from people in a few decades. Not even the romans achieved that in centuries as it was a German tribal which grown up in rome becoming a respected knight that caused one of the empires bigest defeat known as the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest. Without their leader it is very realistic to assume the Legion would start a civil war particularly when you consider how many "charistmatic" people are concetrated around Kayzar Söse either as his guards or generals.
I got the sense that, outside of a fanatical few loyal to Caesar, nobody in the legion actually cared about the legion. They were all just afraid of Caesar and his enforcers. This should have lead to mass desertion and defection to the NCR when he got stalled at the Hoover Dam.Crni Vuk said:
You can do so for as long as you keep moving forward. People will put up with an awful lot to be part of the most powerful group around. As long as Caesar had an unbroken string of victories and kept conquering, there was, effectively, no where else for the legionares to go. That all changed when they got stalled by the NCR. The legionares now had somewhere they could desert/defect to. Caesar's brutal severing of tribal affiliations would make this actually easier. The legionares had no reason to stick around. Especially after the decimation and burning man affair.
Ausir said:
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried," so said Churchill before he got booted outta office.
Even if the people in Caesar's Legion were truly loyal to Caesar, that's not the same as being loyal to the Legion. An empire that's wholly dependent on the capricious nature of its single, autocratic leader - however noble his intentions - is one that is doomed the moment he dies or is overthrown. Caesar and House suffer the same problem that way.
Conversely, just as while the people in NCR complain about senatorial corruption or imperfect redistribution of resources, they are not complaining about NCR - which most of them see as a positive influence on civilization. Not being overrun by raiders AND having some say in your own governance really does allow one to overlook quite a bit of taxation, corruption and inefficiency.
Lanius
Monster of the East
Crni Vuk said:
You should ask Silus, the Centurion prisoner at Camp McCarren, what he really thinks of Caesar (some speech checks involved).
Silus actually thinks that Caesar is a weak old man, who fakes his headaches and blackouts to conceal his inability to lead his Legionaries anymore, and that he (Silus) would never commit suicide for Caesar on the battlefield (thus he was captured by the NCR and brought to Camp McCarren).
yes, I loved that part a lot. Not just cause it showed a bit of diversity in the legions camp but cause I just love those "bad cop - god cop" situations.
Aynway its just one single indidivual I came across while in the whole NCR you have a lot of different characters, with some dissliking their leadership as beeing incompetent, others beeing hopeless, some fanatical and some simply trying to survive. I wish they would have not simply shown the legion as "the evil army" and not making them so damn sexist. Doesnt makes sense in a wasteland anyway. Even the romans which did not had much use for females in battles didnt made them outright slaves or birth machines. The legion just feels unfinished in the way that I think they spend a lot of work in the begining with the NCR while runing out of time later when starting work on the Legion. You get a lot of situations to work with certain NCR indidivuals while it seems the only realy interesting legion individuals are concentrated in Kai-zars tend ~ if there are really any major interesting quest givers then I did not have meet them yet.
Aynway its just one single indidivual I came across while in the whole NCR you have a lot of different characters, with some dissliking their leadership as beeing incompetent, others beeing hopeless, some fanatical and some simply trying to survive. I wish they would have not simply shown the legion as "the evil army" and not making them so damn sexist. Doesnt makes sense in a wasteland anyway. Even the romans which did not had much use for females in battles didnt made them outright slaves or birth machines. The legion just feels unfinished in the way that I think they spend a lot of work in the begining with the NCR while runing out of time later when starting work on the Legion. You get a lot of situations to work with certain NCR indidivuals while it seems the only realy interesting legion individuals are concentrated in Kai-zars tend ~ if there are really any major interesting quest givers then I did not have meet them yet.
Ausir said:
Democracy sucks because it can't be implemented. What we have is an illusion of democracy: Our representatives, elected by the majority, usually do things the majority doesn't want them to do anyway. Making unpopular decisions is normal for "democracy". Current democracy is actually oligarchy with us having a choice which oligarchs we put on thrones.
Caesar's Legion isn't the alternative - but he got that part right: his people fight for him and his ideals. not elect him to be a distant ruler that's only role is to make unpopular laws.