The verdict on Caesar's Legion (minor early-game spoilers)?

DForge said:
Democracy sucks because it can't be implemented. What we have is an illusion of democracy: Our representatives, elected by the majority, usually do things the majority doesn't want them to do anyway. Making unpopular decisions is normal for "democracy". Current democracy is actually oligarchy with us having a choice which oligarchs we put on thrones.
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In the political sense it does not. What we have in most nations are parliamentary republics which are a form of democracy. Some states like Switzerland have a mix between parliamentary politics and referendums by the citizens. The form of democracy we have currently in most nations (USA, Germany, France etc.) is at the moment one of the better choices considering the alternatives which are usualy dictatorships. I have yet to see any dictatorship that grants the same possiblities like a democratic state. Every political system is prone to coruption but its easier for an single indiviual to abuse their authority then with a instution that is eventualy in competition with others ~ separation of powers. One fundamental principle of a modern society is to divide the law in the judiciary, executive and legislative power. And it works. Most of the time.
 
Democracy sucks because it can't be implemented. What we have is an illusion of democracy: Our representatives, elected by the majority, usually do things the majority doesn't want them to do anyway.
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You confuse democracy with republicanism. These days it is normal to call representative democracy or republicanism simply "democracy" colloquially but it's two different form of government. Representative government are not perfect, but are also a lot more stable and "free" than "true democracies", because fully majoritarian rule is flawed at its core.

As for comparison with 'oligarchy', I don't see where you're getting that from, since oligarchy generally implies imposition of rule rather than election, as well as little to no restriction on the power of the rulers.

Caesar's Legion isn't the alternative - but he got that part right: his people fight for him and his ideals. not elect him to be a distant ruler that's only role is to make unpopular laws.
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It is solely the people's responsibility to stay politically to make sure that the laws stay popular. You can't just be apolitical and then complain that the law is "unpopular".

"Fighting for an idea" is also ultimately deceptive, either because people are deceived to fight for something that is ruler's personal interest in disguise, or because most who support the idea do so out of fear rather than genuine support.
 
Ausdoerrt said:
You confuse democracy with republicanism. These days it is normal to call representative democracy or republicanism simply "democracy" colloquially but it's two different form of government. Representative government are not perfect, but are also a lot more stable and "free" than "true democracies", because fully majoritarian rule is flawed at its core.
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A tyranny of the majority is about as egalitarian as the rule of the lynch mob. Part of modern democracy is the preservation of the rights of the minority.

Not that it all terribly matters - the question one should really ask oneself is, "is this a society I could see myself living in?"

And to be quite honest, that's a very tough question to ask, because it requires that one thinks of all the alternatives available. China is ascendant, but I wouldn't want to be a regular Joe Schmoe from Chongqing. I wouldn't want to be Algerian in a slum outside of Paris, I wouldn't want to Black in the antebellum South, I wouldn't want to be within a thousand miles of Genghis Khan.

And as such, in a world where potential causes of death for me include:

- Shot for the clothes on my back
- Starved to death
- Crucified for imbibing alcohol
- Shot for being a potential threat
- Succumbed to an easily-treatable disease
- Died to Radiation Poisoning
- Shot for looking funny
- Sold to slavery
- Eaten by giant ants

somehow a life of taxes and congressional infighting doesn't look half bad.
 
A tyranny of the majority is about as egalitarian as the rule of the lynch mob. Part of modern democracy is the preservation of the rights of the minority.
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And looks like the minorities (e.g. ghouls) are pretty OK in the NCR, for example.
 
I put my thoughts on the Legion... In SONG! Set to the tune of In the Navy by the Village People.




Where can you find pleasure
Search the world for treasure
Burn science technology
Where can you begin to make your dreams all come true
While getting stung by giant bees
Where can you learn to die
Try to torture a guy
Study murderology
Sign up for the raid band
Or sit in the white sand
When your squad and others meet


In the Legion
Yes, you can murder the diseased
In the Legion
Yes, you can kill men at ease
In the Legion
Come on now, people, make a stand!
In the Legion, in the Legion
Can't you see we need a hand?
In the Legion
Come on, invade some other land!
In the Legion
Come on and do your fellow man
In the Legion
Come on people, and make a stand
In the Legion, in the Legion, in the Legion (in the Legion)


They want you, they want you
They want you as a new recruit


If you like adventure
Don't you wait to enter
The Centurion's tent fast
Don't you hesitate
There is no need to wait
They're signing up new meatshields fast
Maybe you are too young
To join up today
But don't you worry 'bout a thing
For I'm sure there will be
Always a bad Legion
Slaughtering the land with ease

In the Legion,
Yes, you can murder the diseased
In the Legion,
Yes, you can kill men at ease
In the Legion
Come on, people, make a stand!
In the Legion, in the Legion,
Can't you see we need a hand?
In the Legion
Come on and invade some other land
In the Legion
Come on and do your fellow man
In the Legion
Come on, people, make a stand!
In the Legion, in the Legion, in the Legion (in the Legion)


They want you, they want you
They want you as a new recruit


Who me?


They want you, they want you
They want you as a new recruit


But, but but I'm afraid of slaughter
Hey, hey look
Man, I get very sick even watchin' it in the scope!


They want you, they want you in the Legion


Oh my goodness.
What am I gonna do in a slaver camp?


They want you, they want you in the Legion
 
Ausir said:
A tyranny of the majority is about as egalitarian as the rule of the lynch mob. Part of modern democracy is the preservation of the rights of the minority.
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And looks like the minorities (e.g. ghouls) are pretty OK in the NCR, for example.
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The gender divide in pretty much all occupations is fairly equal, nobody so much as blinks an eye no matter your origins, politics or sexual orientation (then again, it is Vegas), religion wasn't even mentioned as anything more than talking brahmin skulls... hell, NCR might even be more liberal than pre-apocalypse America - they even sign treaties instead of just wiping all their neighbors out!

Aside from the need to walk everywhere and the subsistence diet of scorched gecko and cactus water (oh, and the giant mutant ants), it really ain't such a bad place to be.
 
NCR has laws forbidding discrimination on the basis of gender, race, sexuality, religion or mutations.
 
Nalano said:
Ausdoerrt said:
You confuse democracy with republicanism. These days it is normal to call representative democracy or republicanism simply "democracy" colloquially but it's two different form of government. Representative government are not perfect, but are also a lot more stable and "free" than "true democracies", because fully majoritarian rule is flawed at its core.
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A tyranny of the majority is about as egalitarian as the rule of the lynch mob. Part of modern democracy is the preservation of the rights of the minority.

Not that it all terribly matters - the question one should really ask oneself is, "is this a society I could see myself living in?"
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That's basically the question I asked myself while playing the game, and I support NCR all the way. They aren't perfect, but they provide safety and equality. Exactly what benefits does Caesar's Legion provide that NCR doesn't?
 
That's basically the question I asked myself while playing the game, and I support NCR all the way. They aren't perfect, but they provide safety and equality. Exactly what benefits does Caesar's Legion provide that NCR doesn't?
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It's basically a contradiction of two different philosophical views of the world. Caesar himself explains it pretty neatly if you ask him. The issue in-game though is that the devs don't do Legion justice by having too little to do in the Legion camp, and not allowing the player an option to go deep into the structures of the Legion as is possible for NCR.
 
Caesar's Legion is probably the weakest part of the game. When you think about them as an entity, it's rather ludicrous. The Legion has at best extensive melee weapons training accompanied by conventional small arms. The NCR has VERTIBIRDS AND MINI-NUKES. The NCR even knows where Caesar's camp is located. There is no good reason why he isn't dead and the Legion isn't being swept up by the beginning of the game.
 
well what do you think Lanius has for an role in the game ... to exactly ALWAYS make sure that end fight is happaning. Same with the NCR general.
 
Newbie here. I've been lurking for a while to get a feel for the board, but I figure I'll make this my coming out post, as it were.

On the Legion:

What would have helped would be, if when working for Caesar and his folks, if their background and how things operated back in Arizona was more fleshed out.

Hell, Cassidy and Raul each say that as much as they hate the Legion for being slaving, darwinist jackasses, life under them is orderly and safe.

Cassidy goes on a bit of a tirade about how though even though she loves the NCR, she'd sign up for Legion protection as a caravan runner in a heartbeat if she was a man, considering no raiders screw with you if you have Legion protection.

She also makes mention of why it's so attractive to NCR towns to switch to the Legion, that they see the NCR as this far away, distant government that does not help them against the marauding hordes of the wasteland, while towns under the rule of Caesar are left the hell alone. As much as we tout the love of freedom, people will do a damn lot of stupid things for security.

Furthermore, Raul says that he personally saw Arizona before and after the Legion made it home base, saying it was a festering nightmare before Caesar unified all of the tribes and made it what it is today. He can't fault them for that, even though their tactics are horrifically brutal.

Also, if you off Caesar with Boone and talk to him afterwards, he mentions that the NCR's pissed because they found out Caesar had established a full line of succession, with the people taking over being those most fanatically devoted to his will. Who will presumably take the name Caesar upon ascension.

All in all, they remind me a lot of 90's comic book anti-heroes, they do so many bad things and yet we're made to try and empathize with them. I really hope the first DLC that comes out manages to humanize the Legion more, maybe have a trip to Arizona to see what life is like under them?
 
sea said:
I just want to say that I'm really disappointed that apparently killing Caesar has little to no impact on the game world, beyond a few comments by NPCs. True, the ending is effected, but you'd think it would totally change the situation at Hoover Dam and get the NCR to concentrate on Vegas instead. Surely it wouldn't have been hard to switch up the order of events... if Caesar is dead, then New Vegas becomes the final battleground, otherwise the Dam is the game's finale.

I guess that's just a case of things already being so big to begin with, though, that adding another layer of complexity on top wouldn't help, but it still doesn't change the fact that it feels like a bit of a cop-out. It's almost as if Obsidian realised that the player could break the story by taking out the Legion too soon, and put in some last-minute contingency dialogue to try to make up for it.
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Consider: If President Lincoln had been killed before Gettysburg, would Grant have changed his battle plan?

It's harder to say in the case of the legion. It's far more a cult of personality. Would the immediate underlings that were present begin immediate fighting? Or would the discipline of an established army camp keep things bottled up long enough to begin the attack? Certainly, a scenario where Lanius decides that a victory at Hoover over the NCR would give him enough prestige to hold the legion together is reasonable.
 
It's harder to say in the case of the legion. It's far more a cult of personality. Would the immediate underlings that were present begin immediate fighting? Or would the discipline of an established army camp keep things bottled up long enough to begin the attack? Certainly, a scenario where Lanius decides that a victory at Hoover over the NCR would give him enough prestige to hold the legion together is reasonable.
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The commoners would probably not feel much, unless it'd all get out of hand. It'd be reasonable to expect some infighting between the higher-ups for the role of the new Caesar, since he's really holding it all together and as far as the game makes known doesn't have a successor. I could see Lanius try to either take over or restore his tribe, while the Caesar-lovers would probably want to continue the Legion in the name of his ideals. The face of the Legion would definitely change (because enlightened rulers rarely get succeeded by rulers of the same caliber and belief system), but probably not overnight.
 
Freki said:
Hell, Cassidy and Raul each say that as much as they hate the Legion for being slaving, darwinist jackasses, life under them is orderly and safe.
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Yeah, and under Mussolini the trains in Italy ran on time.

It's easy to have a safe an orderly society when quite literally everybody who couldn't fend for themselves in the harsh wasteland has already been murdered or enslaved. Who's left to target?

I mean, the structural problem of "too many mouths to feed" has a very simple solution: Let the excess folks starve to death. Of course, one's personal support for such a solution largely depends on whether s/he expects to be of those who get to eat.
 
Ausdoerrt said:
It's harder to say in the case of the legion. It's far more a cult of personality. Would the immediate underlings that were present begin immediate fighting? Or would the discipline of an established army camp keep things bottled up long enough to begin the attack? Certainly, a scenario where Lanius decides that a victory at Hoover over the NCR would give him enough prestige to hold the legion together is reasonable.
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The commoners would probably not feel much, unless it'd all get out of hand. It'd be reasonable to expect some infighting between the higher-ups for the role of the new Caesar, since he's really holding it all together and as far as the game makes known doesn't have a successor. I could see Lanius try to either take over or restore his tribe, while the Caesar-lovers would probably want to continue the Legion in the name of his ideals. The face of the Legion would definitely change (because enlightened rulers rarely get succeeded by rulers of the same caliber and belief system), but probably not overnight.
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Again, if you kill Caesar with Boone as a companion, afterwards he remarks that the NCR discovered that Caesar as a very detailed line of succession in place, with only his most fanatical being the reign holders.
 
Freki said:
Again, if you kill Caesar with Boone as a companion, afterwards he remarks that the NCR discovered that Caesar as a very detailed line of succession in place, with only his most fanatical being the reign holders.
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Which doesn't mean his 'plans' would hold ground.
As far as i remember a lot of 'Ceasars' got booted out bei their own Praetorians, because they disliked them.
Not to forget that quite all NPC's tell you that more or less all his underlings a batshit crazy. So i wouldn't count on them not ruining the Legion all by themselves.

But that's all speculation.
 
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