The verdict on Caesar's Legion (minor early-game spoilers)?

vanzizzle said:
They're not really Roman enough IMO. I took Classical Studies this year and the Romans didn't just kill the people of captured territories, they built monuments to show them how great the Empire was. They even allowed the conquered to keep their cultures and religions. If they resisted, surely they died or were enslaved, but most people were willing to become a part of the Empire for protection against barbarians. In New Vegas' case though, they are the barbarians. Talking of enslaving anything that moves. It's almost a reverse situation. Another point is that women weren't treated as harshly. When the Flavian amphitheater was first completed, seating was arranged so that women sat at the very top on wooden seating. Later though they began sitting together, men and women.
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Actually, its the same with Caesar as it was with RL-Hitler and his abuse of germanic-norse traditions and symbolry. Arcade Gannon has some really cool lines about that.
 
Historical Romans had many slaves, does this make them evil? This was how the world was working during ancient era.
They also implemented harsh disicipline in their army - were they evil ? No, in common sense Roman army is considered as great achiement

I think the main problem that in F:NV they are shown as huge nation - army of cruel slavers, what is not possible. You can`t build huge nation basing on psychopats tormenting people. This kind of people may be useful but you need normal society where you draw recruits, merchants, workers, scholars and such. It`s not possible to rely only on slaves because they just can`t be trusted or lack skill.

Another thing is it`s not possible economicaly to pay few thousand caps for slave ant treat it like waste. ([spoiler:754a4da035]I got this info from selling Boon`s wife agreement).[/spoiler:754a4da035]
Even if they wouldn`t be treating slaves as human beings, still every slave has it economical value.

And about Nipton. Town supporting NCR and also criminals, and after that selling them to third party - they truly deserved what they got.

Oh and famous Roman quote: Dura lex, sed lex - The law is harsh, but it is the law - this explain all.

And about Legion punishment methods - they didn`t invented anything new, just used old ideas (eg. crucifixion, which was very popular in Roman era - somtimes they crucified 3 people on one cross - it was way more efficient).
 
Having finished a Legion play through, I can safely say that the legion is beyond hilariously awful. The whole play through was "Kill kill kill, Die die die!!!". I thought the writing for the Legion was solid but good god, these guys are Saturday morning cartoon level bad guy evil. I also think it was Brother None that mentioned that the Enclave in FO3 was more morally Grey than the Legion, and that's just pathetic. I honestly had more fun killing them than helping them.
 
Cerber said:
Historical Romans had many slaves, does this make them evil?
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Yes.

Cerber said:
Another thing is it's not possible economically to pay few thousand caps for slave and treat it like waste.
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That same argument was used in the antebellum South.
 
Thing is, the Legion is pretty damn evil if we apply the ethics of almost everyone in the Fallout universe.
 
Yeah, the Legion is pretty damn evil to every raider, outlaw and drug dealer too. Probably because they're actually dealing with them and harshly, I might add.
 
Gaddes said:
I also think it was Brother None that mentioned that the Enclave in FO3 was more morally Grey than the Legion, and that's just pathetic.
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The Enclave under Augustus Autumn, note. I thought Autumn was kind of badly designed, but one of the worst parts of the main plot (other than all the plotholes surrounding Raven Rock and the hamfisted writing in the whole Daddy-plot) was that you could never choose to back Autumn. Eden was a genocidal maniac, and together with the Enclave administration of Fallout 2 probably the most one-sided, comically evil villain of the franchise.

But Autumn? Autumn just wanted to grab the purifier to use as a powerbase. He was going to distribute it, though we do not know on what basis or what his long-term plans were, and presumably pacify the region, which is in dire need of pacification. Sure, the BoS are shiningly moral good, but the Enclave - giant robots aside - was more powerful and better organized, and with a temporary alliance with the Outcast might have succeeded into leading that part of the wasteland into a not-particularly-glorious-but-better future.

A choice between the efficient but ruthless Enclave and the incapable but shining-good BoS would have been a much better choice than what was offered to us in the end (shining paladin of hope vs genocidal maniac). Autumn's Enclave is closer to, say, Mr House as a main plotline option than it is to the Legion.

I think that's the choice New Vegas should and maybe wants to offer us is just that: the Legion, which is ruthless but capable, and the NCR, which is democratic, but corrupt and inefficient.

But they fail, on both sides. The Legion is way too evil to pretend they present a better future. Being harried by raiders in isolated communities seems like a better option than to live under the Legion, who will not let you keep your identity, women or freedom. Or alcohol.
Meanwhile, the NCR is a bit corrupt and inefficient, but they pacified the west just as much as the Legion pacified the east. They are just as capable, only not nearly as evil.

That makes the whole thing a non-choice. Big failing there.
 
Still, at the very least in FNV there's also Mr. House, who is a much more valid choice.
 
You mean as an alternative to the NCR? Yes.

But look at it like this, there's basically three good options: House, NCR and being good with Yes Man. For evil players, the only "sensibly evil" option is Yes Man and just taking over yourself. That's not a bad option even if Yes Man is an odd bit of 4th-wall-breaking. The Legion? There's nothing sensible about it, that's just the psychopath option, and that's a shame.
 
Well, I think you could be sensibly evil while working for Mr. House, simply because of House's monetary compensation for your work.
 
Tagaziel said:
Here's to the fallacy of applying 20th century ethics and morality to people 20 centuries ago.
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You're right. Let's not apply 20th century ethics in the 22nd century.

Let's apply second century ethics in the 22nd century. That makes much more sense.
 
I agree Yes-Man or House is the best choice for a non-pyscho evil character, but I think Caesar's Legion is a viable choice for an good, idealist type character, assuming you can buy into Caesar's idea of synthesis with the NCR.

Caesar himself admits the Legion is a bunch of ignorant savages and wants to revolutionize the group by combining it with the best points of NCR (a more stable population of people, more access to education, better infrastructure and less conflict once the people are unified; these things would likely significantly moderate the group). Obviously the chances of his plan working are dubious and if it fails the results would be a disaster, but I think a character that believes it is goal worth trying to achieve is reasonable.
 
ramessesjones said:
I agree Yes-Man or House is the best choice for a non-pyscho evil character, but I think Caesar's Legion is a viable choice for an good, idealist type character, assuming you can buy into Caesar's idea of synthesis with the NCR.

Caesar himself admits the Legion is a bunch of ignorant savages and wants to revolutionize the group by combining it with the best points of NCR (a more stable population of people, more access to education, better infrastructure and less conflict once the people are unified; these things would likely significantly moderate the group). Obviously the chances of his plan working are dubious and if it fails the results would be a disaster, but I think a character that believes it is goal worth trying to achieve is reasonable.
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Yeah, the problem with Hitler was that he was a piss-poor tactician, no?

In all seriousness, tho, I agree with you: As an "evil" faction, they could have fleshed out the Legion a lot more.
 
Caesar is ridiculously vague and naive about Hegelian dialectics. He sounds like 20-something college student at the fin de siecle, dreaming about a revolution that would somehow work out automatically because that's how dialectics and historical inevitability works. Turns out it wasn't that easy in reality, and honestly, Caesar (and JE Sawyer) should know better.
 
Brother None said:
Caesar is ridiculously vague and naive about Hegelian dialectics. He sounds like 20-something college student at the fin de siecle, dreaming about a revolution that would somehow work out automatically because that's how dialectics and historical inevitability works. Turns out it wasn't that easy in reality, and honestly, Caesar (and JE Sawyer) should know better.
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To be fair, however, most of the philosophers and great thinkers died along with everybody else, so the only real thing Caesar has to go on are a few pre-war books.

So, in that stead, he really IS like a college sophomore playing god-king.
 
that should not stop him to think by him self though. hence why I believe its a bit silly that a men supposed to be as inteligent like Caesar is directly copying the roman culture almost 1:1. And not even in the best way to say that.
 
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