The verdict on Caesar's Legion (minor early-game spoilers)?

J

Jidai Geki

It Wandered In From the Wastes
What did you think of them in the end? I avoided most NV pre-release stuff, so I knew almost nothing about them. I have to say that I was sold on them from the moment I walked into Nipton and down the main road, flanked by impaled heads and crucified Powder Gangers. Very well done as a ruthless, borderline evil faction from the get-go.

I have to say that I think Obsidian went a bit overboard with the direct Roman Empire rip-off, though. The Legion would have been more effective if they had original clothing. The Latin and stuff was fine (like how they went to lengths to pronounce everything 'correctly'), but it seemed a bit silly to see people dressed like actual Roman soldiers running around in post-apocalyptic Nevada.

I also thought that the voice-acting choices for the Legion seemed to be a deliberate jab at Bethsoft- they were easily the most 'fantasy'-looking of NV's players, and their voice acting was for the most part as wooden and terrible as most of FO3's.

They're also sneaky bastards with a mine. Hidden body-mines have cost me limbs more than once. :o
 
After talking with the Legionaries in Nipton and seeing their "lottery" system, I was so disgusted that I make it a a point to hunt any and all Legion whenever I have the chance. Ceasar included. I wish I could make my character scream,"Its C-sar!! Not Kai-zar!!" When I ram my pneumatic gauntlet through Ceasars' face... ^.^
 
They come across as too evil. Slaves are useful sure, but the Legion seems to make a point of you're either in the Legion, or a slave which seems a fairly overzealous interpretation of Rome.

Their basically underdeveloped in the game as well. Far fewer sidequests and less development.

The reason behind the sexism would of also been explained better, as a intelligent man like Caeser must surely have a better reason than simple sexism, or because woman are weaker in physical strength. Though i guess it could just be a socialogical tool to help keep slaves underminded and unrespected.
 
Zeronet said:
They come across as too evil. Slaves are useful sure, but the Legion seems to make a point of you're either in the Legion, or a slave which seems a fairly overzealous interpretation of Rome.

Their basically underdeveloped in the game as well. Far fewer sidequests and less development.

The reason behind the sexism would of also been explained better, as a intelligent man like Caeser must surely have a better reason than simple sexism, or because woman are weaker in physical strength. Though i guess it could just be a socialogical tool to help keep slaves underminded and unrespected.
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Depending on the era (Roman civilization spanned many years, obviously) women were basically slaves or second-class citizens. Wives rarely even left the home, as slaves went out to do most of the shopping. Upper class women obviously received more benefits, with upper class prostitutes having the most freedom and education. Many female children didn't reach adulthood to begin with. It was considered a good thing to have many sons, but undesirable to raise many daughters, so female infants were often abandoned out in the elements to die (AKA exposure.)

I didn't find Caesar's Legion to be very nuanced. I felt they were well-written (the lottery system was really disturbing, for one) and convincingly evil, but they weren't exactly marked by shades of gray. That's basically okay, since there are many examples in human history of groups that are almost wholly horrible with few redeeming qualities (for instance, the Taliban or the LRA in Uganda) but almost no examples of a group that is wholly GOOD with no evil qualities whatsoever. A group like FO3's Brotherhood of Steel has never and probably will never exist on any large scale, humans being the flawed species they are. I expect the "good guys" to be more nuanced than the "bad guys." Although it would be NICE to have "villains" who aren't totally villainous at the core, it's not game-breaking or unrealistic to have otherwise.

I kind of wish they had gone further back and made Caesar's Legion into the Spartan Legion or something. Sparta at least had more female involvement, which would have kept the Legion from being such a sausagefest. They were fierce warriors. They regularly murdered those who they saw as weak and unfit for society. They kept slaves. It seems to fit the story of the Legion better than what is actually presented in the game.
 
I can't remember what note it was I found in cottonwood cove, but I know this is random(you said something about a sausagefest), Legate Lanius is apparently openly homosexual, and if you read some of the terminals of the average soldier, quite alot of them are homosexual, just not willing to admit it. I think that's some depth there.
 
My opinion on Caesar's Legion hasn't changed much. I find them to be well written, but utterly boring so far and while I still need to do a Legion play through, I don't my opinion will change.
 
lmao said:
Depending on the era (Roman civilization spanned many years, obviously) women were basically slaves or second-class citizens.
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Yeah, but we're not in a Roman era.

Seriously, saying "Caesar modeled the Legion after Romans" is one thing, it excuses neither things that don't fit (the overdoing of the dress, coins, speech, etc) or that don't make sense (sexism as key tenant of belief in a society that is broadly speaking beyond sexism, using so much unarmed combat in a world rife with guns).

Mr Krepe said:
I think that's some depth there.
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There's homosexuality there. How is that depth?
 
Saying that Legion is evil and villian faction is very shallow and poor interpetation. I agree that crucifixion is quite demonic show of sensless brutality, but let's analyse foundations of both factions. What at first appears to be a barbaric horde is in fact an attempt to create higher order and build civilization on holy and transcendent principles. On the other side there is NCR, which praise freedom in anarchistic and individualistic meaning of that word. NCR vs Legion in not good vs evil, but chaos vs order. Caesar is leading a crusade against materialistic, corrupt and morally rotten democrats. Let's quote legionists: "All who are not Legion are "Dissolute". They live in squalor, unrestrained by morality, lacking moderation, temper and self-control"; "They hold themselves civilized, when in fact they are corrupt and self-interested"; "[Legion] dedicated its citizens to something higher than themselves - the idea of Rome itself".

The last sentence is important in understanding Legion. Like traditional empires and societies, they focus on a higher plane, that which is above things merely human. That's saying "no" to materialism and finally it is legitimising their rulership not by people like in democracy but by idea of holy empire.

Highly moral foundations and intelligence of Legion makes me think that they would have a chance to build new, real civilization.

I want to ask, where is so called sexism in Legion? Is it because there are no female soldiers? Have you seen normal army with female soldiers? And there are no women in camps, because those are war camps. We don't know for sure how does it look in their homes, but they certainly have wifes.
 
I think the Legion is a bit too Roman and it ends up looking out of place. I've not played on the Legion's side though, so I'm probably missing some things. In any case, it's just a bit too much. The faction needs a more Post-apocalyptic feel. More guns, less skirts.
 
I wish the legion folks would look more different and more wasteland-ish. I mean... every one of them wears the same damn helmet and it seems like the only ones who *don't* wear a helmet, but glasses and different hair, are parking in front of Caesars tent.
The NCR doesn't look that repitative... I wish the Legion wouldn't as well, which would make it a little bit more believable, imo.
 
They're a bit silly... but kind of interesting. I didn't feel there was that much to them, but I didn't ally with them on this playthrough. They just seemed savage and evil for the most part. Maybe if you play on their side of things it's a bit more interesting.
 
Brother None said:
Mr Krepe said:
I think that's some depth there.
Click to expand...

There's homosexuality there. How is that depth?
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It wasn't the homosexuality I meant as depth, I meant that if you investigate enough you can get some half-decent info out. Although yeah i've got to admit, there isn't much depth there, Iwas just trying to validate them.
 
lmao said:
Zeronet said:
They come across as too evil. Slaves are useful sure, but the Legion seems to make a point of you're either in the Legion, or a slave which seems a fairly overzealous interpretation of Rome.

Their basically underdeveloped in the game as well. Far fewer sidequests and less development.

The reason behind the sexism would of also been explained better, as a intelligent man like Caeser must surely have a better reason than simple sexism, or because woman are weaker in physical strength. Though i guess it could just be a socialogical tool to help keep slaves underminded and unrespected.
Click to expand...

Depending on the era (Roman civilization spanned many years, obviously) women were basically slaves or second-class citizens. Wives rarely even left the home, as slaves went out to do most of the shopping. Upper class women obviously received more benefits, with upper class prostitutes having the most freedom and education. Many female children didn't reach adulthood to begin with. It was considered a good thing to have many sons, but undesirable to raise many daughters, so female infants were often abandoned out in the elements to die (AKA exposure.)

I didn't find Caesar's Legion to be very nuanced. I felt they were well-written (the lottery system was really disturbing, for one) and convincingly evil, but they weren't exactly marked by shades of gray. That's basically okay, since there are many examples in human history of groups that are almost wholly horrible with few redeeming qualities (for instance, the Taliban or the LRA in Uganda) but almost no examples of a group that is wholly GOOD with no evil qualities whatsoever. A group like FO3's Brotherhood of Steel has never and probably will never exist on any large scale, humans being the flawed species they are. I expect the "good guys" to be more nuanced than the "bad guys." Although it would be NICE to have "villains" who aren't totally villainous at the core, it's not game-breaking or unrealistic to have otherwise.

I kind of wish they had gone further back and made Caesar's Legion into the Spartan Legion or something. Sparta at least had more female involvement, which would have kept the Legion from being such a sausagefest. They were fierce warriors. They regularly murdered those who they saw as weak and unfit for society. They kept slaves. It seems to fit the story of the Legion better than what is actually presented in the game.
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They ARE grey. Listing the Taliban as non-grey is simply wrong.

Every organisation/viewpoint makes sense and is good or normal from a specific perspective. Just as a western democracy can be seen as an incarnation of evil from a medieval tribal perspective in Afghanistan.

People are just to tied up in their own worlds to understand other perspectives. Declaring a reproduced Roman culture as pure evil, is ignorant.
 
I preferred Marcus' take on the Legion.

He knew that the Legion was just another very organized Raider/slaver camp. He even said that the Legion is only the Legion because of Ceasar. With out him the Legion would die in a few decades. Because no one else in his camp is well educated or knew how Rome ruled it's people.
 
Cyril said:
I want to ask, where is so called sexism in Legion? Is it because there are no female soldiers? Have you seen normal army with female soldiers? And there are no women in camps, because those are war camps. We don't know for sure how does it look in their homes, but they certainly have wifes.
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Yes, I've seen a normal army with female soldiers. In real life and in the game. The NCR has a whole slew of female soldiers, as does the Brotherhood. The Legion treats women as slaves, prostitutes, officer's wives at best. You can even use this to convince Melissa to suggest to Papa Khan that the alliance with the Legion be broken.

We do not know much about their society east of the Colorado, however. I expect it's more liberal and lenient than the frontlines. It's all speculation, though.
 
They're not really Roman enough IMO. I took Classical Studies this year and the Romans didn't just kill the people of captured territories, they built monuments to show them how great the Empire was. They even allowed the conquered to keep their cultures and religions. If they resisted, surely they died or were enslaved, but most people were willing to become a part of the Empire for protection against barbarians. In New Vegas' case though, they are the barbarians. Talking of enslaving anything that moves. It's almost a reverse situation. Another point is that women weren't treated as harshly. When the Flavian amphitheater was first completed, seating was arranged so that women sat at the very top on wooden seating. Later though they began sitting together, men and women.

What's up with the no using medicine thing? They had more advanced methods of treating patients than in the middle ages. They could perform brain surgeries and had tools that doctors and surgeons use today.

EDIT: Can't remember who said it... might have been Chris Avellone.. but who ever, said that you decide for yourself who's good and who's bad... what kind of ordinary person is going to actually think that the Legion is doing something good and deserves to be helped? Considering the mega douche that Caesar is. Unless you're into the whole getting talked down to thing.
 
I havent finished the game quite yet, but legion so far seems to be bit too evil, almost cartoon like villains, i would have preferred to have them few more redeeming qualities and still remain as "the bad guys". To make the whole faction a bit more beliavable and making decisions harder at times. I do like the fact that they seem to want to do more rebuilding than living of the remains of old society.
 
The problem, as a quite a few here allready said, is that the informations we get about the Legion in the game itself are more or less only bad ones. We simply don't get to see if they built public baths or academies (just as an example for why Rome was more than the Legion) in the areas they have conquered for years.
We just see their army and how they wage a total war against seemingly anyone who opposes them.
So personally i couldn't give a final judgement on them because that would be the same as to judge the USA simply by looking at the vietnam war. Or judging Germany simply by looking at WWII.

The legion could have be done better, by simply giving us more insight in how it look behind their frontlines. But well... maybe a dlc might do this in the future.

On a side note - the situation at the dam reminds me a bit on the situation the romans were in at the rhine.
On the one site of the river you got what people would call 'Civilization' ( romans / NCR) on the other site you got what the people might call 'Babarians' ('proto-germans' or celts/ Ceasars Legion).
Each site being quite different but when taking a closer look onto each of the sites you might find things that sound good (as modern archaeology shows the 'proto-germas'/celts weren't completly babaric).
And especially we might have seen how they influence each other...
But i guess that might have been much less exciting for a lot of other people ;)
 
I want to ask, where is so called sexism in Legion? Is it because there are no female soldiers? Have you seen normal army with female soldiers? And there are no women in camps, because those are war camps. We don't know for sure how does it look in their homes, but they certainly have wifes.
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Try playing the Legion questline as a female character and you'll see.


@OP: In any case, I just finished my Legion playthrough last night, and while some of the stuff is seriously underwritten, I thoroughly enjoyed some things you get to do at the end, and the ending slides. It just feels like you made a huge difference as compared to, say, indep. ending. My favourite was the option [spoiler:789ad92108]to sell Arcade Gannon into slaver, and the ending slide associated with it[/spoiler:789ad92108]
 
Cyril said:
What at first appears to be a barbaric horde is in fact an attempt to create higher order and build civilization on holy and transcendent principles.
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No it isn't. It's been pointed out already in this thread, but what relative advantage does Caesar's Legion offer? The Fiends and Khans are better off than them, let alone the NCR. But even disorganized, independent communities like Goodsprings are fine.

The problem with the idea of Caesar's Legion being a force that you can validly say "they're the best option available" is that they clearly are not. The wasteland is not lacking for powers with the clout and reach to carve a better world than the Legion is offering.

The only offset this game offers is Cass arguing the Legion is better capable of protecting caravans than the NCR. That's cool and all, but the NCR is overstretched rather than completely unwilling, and this doesn't seem to be a long-term problem if the region is pacified.

So that's it? We have a group who are brutal murderers, psychopaths, sexists, whose evil is underscored by having them put people on crosses and those hilarious slave-models with the comically huge load wandering about their camp.

Man, Fallout 3's Enclave was better, other than that idiot Eden. In the end all that guy (forgot his name, terribly-designed character) wanted was to grab the sole clean source of water and use it to hold power over the wasteland. Fallout 3's Enclave is a more gray faction than Caesar's Legion. What a joke.

TheV11S said:
He even said that the Legion is only the Legion because of Ceasar
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Yeah, I liked this take too. A kind of larger than life figure.

Until you meet the guy and find out he's just a boorish idiot. About as lacking in charisma as they get.
 
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