There being more than one species of Super Mutant is stupid

[Morgan_]

Can you remember the interviews with Todd, where he was cautiously avoiding it to compare Fallout 3 with Oblivion, making sure gamers would not see it as just a copy of the Elder Scrolls formula thrown onto Fallout, when people started to ask if Fallout 3 was Oblivion with guns? Just to later use that phrase to describe the game, when he realized how people actually just expected that from Bethesda to deliver? I remember him and I think Hines posting here on the forum for some time. They have actually got a pretty neutral welcome by our administrators and the community as a whole. But I think their intention was just to see, how much marketing value there was in using the old Fallout community.

Wait is this true!?

Also, just to contribute to the topic of the thread: It would be nice to have more variety in Fallout, but you must admit that Mutants, Ghouls, BOS and many of the enemies are strong archetypes and will not only be hard to replace, but are major part of what makes Fallout, well, Fallout. Each Fallout would be a very different game to the last if they were set in different places and I doubt that the replacements for these things would be as good as the original inhabitants/characters. I'd still like to see a Fallout with most things replaced for new ideas, but maybe only as a spin off and not a main entry.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well that is how I remember it at least.

 

[RangerBoo]

Wait is this true!?

Also, just to contribute to the topic of the thread: It would be nice to have more variety in Fallout, but you must admit that Mutants, Ghouls, BOS and many of the enemies are strong archetypes and will not only be hard to replace, but are major part of what makes Fallout, well, Fallout. Each Fallout would be a very different game to the last if they were set in different places and I doubt that the replacements for these things would be as good as the original inhabitants/characters. I'd still like to see a Fallout with most things replaced for new ideas, but maybe only as a spin off and not a main entry.

One of Bethesda biggest mistakes with 3 was that they wouldn't stop rehashing old ideas from previous Fallouts. They instead should have done something new and different in regards to the East Coast. Create new factions, mutants, creatures, ect. They had a clean slate but chose the nostalgia route.

 

[mustadiokeepsdying]

One of Bethesda biggest mistakes with 3 was that they wouldn't stop rehashing old ideas from previous Fallouts. They instead should have done something new and different in regards to the East Coast. Create new factions, mutants, creatures, ect. They had a clean slate but chose the nostalgia route.

After sitting down and looking at your post and thinking for a few minutes, I realized Bethesda literally could've done anything they wanted and brung fresh new ideas to the game. I don't think they reused and rehashed everything for the purpose of raking in nostalgic fans, I just think they genuinely didn't have any ideas of what to put in the game. I've gotten so used to seeing the same stuff over and over again, I can't even think about factions and enemies I would like to see in Fallout. FNV on the other hand either created fresh new ideas, or took some from FO1 and FO2 and respected the source material. Bethesda's Super Mutants are just Incredible Hulks with guns and armor. Interplay's Super Mutants are these terrifying beings that are vastly superior to humans in every way. After finishing FNV for the first time I couldn't bring myself to go back and finish FO3 for the first time ever because I knew it'd be just BOS/Generic Raider Faction/Enclave/Super Mutant.

 

[Norzan]

but you must admit that Mutants, Ghouls, BOS and many of the enemies are strong archetypes and will not only be hard to replace, but are major part of what makes Fallout, well, Fallout.

Fallout isn't Super Mutants, Ghouls and BoS and the other crap Bethesda keeps recycling, Fallout is about the politics between several factions in a post apocalyptic world. A new Fallout game with literally but new mutants and factions would still be a Fallout game if they were done well.

Bethesda constantly putting BoS, Ghouls, Super Mutants and other crap in every game is actively hurting the franchise. They have to come up with contrived, nonsensical reasons to put them in the new Fallout game. With nothing but brand new stuff, you don't need to come up with forced shit to have those things since they are new.

What's even worse is that Bethesda comes up with new factions and enemies in each Elder Scrolls. It's like they don't give a shit about Fallout and only see it as a brand to sell the same game over and over.

 

[ElloinmorninJ]

Nope, the only stupid mutants in the first two games are Harry and those second generation mutants that were in Mariposa after the Enclave caused parts of the bunker to collapse. I think it was Lieutenant in Fallout 1 (I may be wrong though) who said that only some stupid mutants come through.

And Marcus was just meaning that only perfect humans should've been dipped because that would make super mutants even more perfect than they are.

I think he was wrong by saying they were a rarity. I’m pretty sure dumb-dumbs we’re super common, otherwise, why would they have a moron like Harry with them at all?

 

[Ugly Kid]

I think he was wrong by saying they were a rarity. I’m pretty sure dumb-dumbs we’re super common, otherwise, why would they have a moron like Harry with them at all?

Just because it's rare, doesn't mean it's impossible. Harry was the only dumb mutant in Fallout 1 to my knowledge. The rest were either average or really smart.

 

[mannawyadden]

... Bethesda keeps recycling ...

... Bethesda constantly putting BoS, Ghouls, Super Mutants ...

... What's even worse is that Bethesda comes up with new factions and enemies in each Elder Scrolls ...

I get a new e-mail notification for a thread over a year old and the same thing is still going on in it. Statements about how poorly Bethesda, specifically, has handled the franchise as a whole, conveniently ignoring the fact that every Fallout game, regardless of who produced it, has had elements of BoS, Ghouls, Super Mutants, and Raiders.

But those other games arbitrarily get a pass for doing it, because it's cool to like those games- er, I mean, because they all took place on the West Coast! Ignore the fact that all of the games take place in the continental United States, that distance is arbitrarily too large for there to be a valid connection...

I agree 100% that there's more to Fallout than those factions, and that a Fallout game could function perfectly fine without re-using a single element. I think that there's more to the Star Wars universe than Republic/Empire and Jedi/Sith, too. But will we ever see a Star Wars game without those factions? Will we ever see a Fallout game without those factions?

To the companies running the show, these are iconic, easily recognizable elements of the series that make them money by selling copies of the game and merchandise. Their goal is to appeal to the lowest common denominator, not the niche/die-hard fans. How will shoppers in Target impulse buy the latest Fallout game if there isn't a Power Armor helmet on the cover?!

I don't think it's stupid for there to be multiple species of Super Mutants. If they had to recycle Super Mutants, making new species with a different origin is preferable to the alternative of "It's remnants of the Master's army!" until the end of time...

 

[Gizmojunk]

To the companies running the show, these are iconic, easily recognizable elements of the series that make them money by selling copies of the game and merchandise.

What always bothered me about this is that you had to BE a diehard core fan to recognize most of these. What was the point of buying the IP to then sell it to people who either knew nothing about it, or knew enough to see everything wrong with it? What value was in the IP name —to people who don't know it?

They kept nothing but the name itself and a few cherry picked series' concepts [asset names], and where these were used, they were never like what the names originally meant.

This was wholesale exploitation of the reputation—to sell modern crap under the old name.

This was like if a company bought the Vegemite name (for the infamous reputation), with intention to change the core product to compete with Nutella; offering nothing of the original [flavor] except similar appearance.

 

[Crni Vuk]

What always bothered me about this is that you had to BE a diehard core fan to recognize most of these. What was the point of buying the IP to then sell it to people who either knew nothing about it, or knew enough to see everything wrong with it? What value was in the IP name —to people who don't know it?

I can only assume that they did it to broaden their brands. To buy an already existing IP which has some recognition and is somewhat known and creating something there is probably easier than coming up with something completely new.

 

[Norzan]

I mean, because they all took place on the West Coast!

Shit, it's like Super Mutants, BoS and Ghouls all came from the West Coast and them being absent in a Fallout game set in the West Coast like 1, 2 and New Vegas would be weird and need an explanation as to why those things aren't there.

And it's like all of these things that ORIGINATED from the West Coast popping up everywhere without rime or reason except for a contrived, bullshit reason is reason to criticize Bethesda for being so lazy.

You didn't posted anything for a while, only to come back and whine that some people still give Bethesda the shit they deserve for being creatively bankrupt. Cry me a fucking river.

 

[Ugly Kid]

Ignore the fact that all of the games take place in the continental United States, that distance is arbitrarily too large for there to be a valid connection...

A 2 second google search shows there's 2500-3500 miles between coasts. Not to mention it's in an apocalypse and transportation is quite rare, at least as of Fallout 3. In Fallout 3, the BoS walked from coast to coast, while most of them were wearing power armor. The Enclave flew to the east coast, which is more believable, but the Enclave was completely destroyed after Fallout 2. So how is the Enclave on the east coast if they're dead? And Harold is one man, a single, frail, old, man, yet he walked from Gecko(northern Nevada) all the way to Washington DC. In 30 years. In 80 years, all Harold went was from southern California to Northern Nevada, but 30 years later he made it to DC? Not to mention that he becomes a tree, which didn't start growing from him until around 160 years after the war, but 30 years later he is a tree.

 

[mannawyadden]

They kept nothing but the name itself and a few cherry picked series' concepts [asset names], and where these were used, they were never like what the names originally meant.

This was wholesale exploitation of the reputation—to sell modern crap under the old name.

Exactly this. It's all calculated corporate brand exploitation and nostalgia-baiting.

A 2 second google search shows there's 2500-3500 miles between coasts. Not to mention it's in an apocalypse and transportation is quite rare, at least as of Fallout 3. In Fallout 3, the BoS walked from coast to coast, while most of them were wearing power armor. The Enclave flew to the east coast, which is more believable, but the Enclave was completely destroyed after Fallout 2. So how is the Enclave on the east coast if they're dead? And Harold is one man, a single, frail, old, man, yet he walked from Gecko(northern Nevada) all the way to Washington DC. In 30 years. In 80 years, all Harold went was from southern California to Northern Nevada, but 30 years later he made it to DC? Not to mention that he becomes a tree, which didn't start growing from him until around 160 years after the war, but 30 years later he is a tree.

A google search also shows this:

2161 - Fallout 1 begins

2241 - Fallout 2 begins

2254 - A Brotherhood of Steel squad led by Owyn Lyons is sent to Washington, D.C. on the East Coast to search for technology.

2277 - Fallout 3 begins

Here, Google is assuming a walking speed of about 3.05 miles per hour. Let's be generous and reduce the walking speed down to only 1 mile/hour; that's now 2,653 hours of travel time. If a walking group travels for 4 hours a day on average, they will reach their destination after a mere 663 days, or 1.82 years.

You mentioned they were wearing Power Armor. So you can even reduce their speed even further and make them travel for an average of only 2 hours a day at a pace of only 1 MPH, and they will still arrive on the east coast after about 3 and a half years.

As for Harold...Let's say that he's frail, old, and took no transportation, so he travels for an average of 30 minutes a day, at a speed 0.5 mph. He could travel from Bakersfield (I know, he started in Gecko, but it's close enough) to D.C. in 10,612 days, or 29 years.

For the Enclave, some percentage of them somehow survived the events of Fallout 2 - maybe they were stationed elsewhere, or doing other things - and flew over to the East Coast in response to Eden's radio signal.

Given these time estimates - even if we slow them down further due to delays - it's not impossible for various factions to have made cross-country trips on foot. Yes, it is a great distance, but the human species has been known to use their legs to travel. It's how we spread all over the planet before recorded history.

Since this topic is supposed to be about Super Mutants, then it's possible for Super Mutants to have traveled on foot, too.

 

[Gizmojunk]

Yes, you mentioned they were wearing Power Armor. So you can even reduce their speed even further and make them travel for an average of only 2 hours a day at a pace of only 1 MPH, and they will still arrive on the east coast after about 3 and a half years.

This is backwards... Wearing the power armor would reduce the effort, and enable them to walk more hours; not feeling the weight, and it would be walking just as fast, or greater.

*Theoretically [but not mentioned in the games] the armor could easily have an auto-jog feature that works somewhat akin to a cruise control—but for walking/jogging on reasonably flat terrain. That would make it take even less time.

The armors DO have leg-locks. These are used during guard duty, and for other times where the wearer plans to stand stationary for long periods.

 

[Norzan]

An aging, decaying faction with low number of soldiers somehow crossed an entire radioactive wasteland filled with monsters and raiders while having to defend literal children and unarmed adults. It's not how long they took to get there, it's how it's pretty much impossible for such an expedition to even survive. Oh, and they were at war with the NCR on top of that.

To rub salt on the wound they apparently overshoot their intended destination, meaning they got further than intended. That's such nonsense that is almost comical.

 

[SquidWard]

Then all the easier it was for them to walk to the East Coast. The problem being, why would they spend such time doing this to that specific area? How long did it take them in the end? Between resupplying if necessary, any violent encounters, other things that would have grabbed their attention that isn't Washington DC? I don't remember if they ever go over this but if they don't it's kinda silly to think they'd go so far to that specific area because of some intelligence saying they should while they're getting their shit kicked in back home.

 

[mannawyadden]

This is backwards... Wearing the power armor would reduce the effort, and enable them to walk more hours; not feeling the weight, and it would be walking just as fast, or greater.

I thought so, too - Power Armor in the StarCraft series works like this. But Ugly Kid said "the BoS walked from coast to coast, while most of them were wearing power armor", so it seemed like he saw the presence of power armor slowing the group down. I can see that happening; maybe because not everyone in the group can wear it, or because there's a ton of equipment to lug around, including the Power Armor when it's not being worn. I was trying to run the numbers based on the operating restrictions he provided.

It's not how long they took to get there, it's how it's pretty much impossible for such an expedition to even survive.

The Vault Dweller and the Chosen One managed to survive some dangerous situations, even while outnumbered and outgunned. The BoS expedition should've had both a numbers and a technological advantage, so I wouldn't bet against them.

The problem being, why would they spend such time doing this to that specific area? How long did it take them in the end? Between resupplying if necessary, any violent encounters, other things that would have grabbed their attention that isn't Washington DC?

Things definitely did grab their attention along the way, like when they went to the Pitt and unleashed hell, took what they could, and left. You could say they made a...Pitt Stop.

I don't think there was any explanation for traveling to the East Coast other than the general mission imperative of collecting technology. Maybe they hoped there would be a ton of untouched military bases or other facilities that they could loot and bring back to the West Coast. But when Elder Lyons started violating their original mission parameters, the Outcast splinter faction formed, calling Lyons a traitor who deserved to be executed by a firing squad back home.

 

[Norzan]

The Vault Dweller and the Chosen One managed to survive some dangerous situations, even while outnumbered and outgunned. The BoS expedition had a numbers and a technological advantage going for them, judging by how many troops were stationed at both the Citadel and serving under the Brotherhood Outcast faction.

Those two didn't crossed the entire fucking country while doing what they were doing, plus they were at best an handful of people that didn't had to feed and defend a bunch of unarmed people. The BoS didn't had the numbers, that was their problem in Fallout 2. They didn't had the resources and the manpower to cross the country when they were barely surviving in their own home. The Chosen One had to help them for chrissakes, or else they would have been destroyed.

Crossing the country with very low manpower and resources while having to defend children and unarmed adults while they are struggling extremely hard at their own home at that point was pretty much impossible. It would have only made sense if they were thriving and they weren't.

 

[Gizmojunk]

...such nonsense that is almost comical.

such nonsense that is almost canonical.

I can see that happening; maybe because not everyone in the group can wear it, or because there's a ton of equipment to lug around, including the Power Armor when it's not being worn.

Theoretically (more fanfic )...
Those wearing PA suits wouldn't feel it to pull the cart, or carrying heavy equipment.
In a pinch they could have really used palanquins, or even BOS-drawn wagons; not to mention Brahmin drawn wagons.

*Berkeley Bionics — Exo-hiker:

 

[Crni Vuk]

Honestly I reall do not mind the fact that there is a Brotherhood of Steel in DC. What really is the issue for me is the fact how badly written they are and their motivation to be there the whole premise of the plot with the Water Purifier, Liberty Prime and all that. It felt so artificial and forced. Why is the BoS in DC? Because Fallout needs the BoS! That's the reason and not because they wrote a good and well written plot about it. It's like with Jet being a pre-war drug or something so that it could be also present in DC or vats where people can get dipped in so that you have Super Mutants in the area which also serve absolutely no purpose but as another target practise for the player.

It's Oblivion with gunz. And that's what's really offensive.