Think a voiced protagonist is a bad idea? Here's Bethesda's reasoning!

[SMBComix]

I'm of two minds about this whole thing. I can understand and somewhat agree with Bethesda's reasoning, but I also understand and somewhat agree with you guys' reasoning.

In the end though, it's really not a big fucking deal. As long as it does what it's supposed to, I'm in. I'm more worried about how well the rest of the game will be played and how good the story will be than about whether or not the dialogue option I choose in a conversation doesn't go as overboard as Reaper Shackal's example.

 

[TheGreatCornholio]

Most of the dialouge in FO 3 and NV had 3 or 4 paths you could go down so the wheel might not necessarily limit the speech options any more than they were in the past.

I liked mass effect for what it was and I like the idea of combining action with RPG but not if the RPG elements are really dumbed down like they were in the last 2 ME games.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Something like that.
A good example would be in Telltale's The Wolf Among Us. There is an option when talking to a character to "glass him". I Assumed that meant to join him in drinking, so I clicked it. My character proceeded to smash his glass cup into his face instead.

To improve your example, I would say that the option only says "Thanks.." and your character goes "Yeah.. umm. Thanks..." like he didn't mean it.

"Why is my guy stabbing the other guy in the face with a glass cup?"

This is exactly the kind of reason why response should be written out in detail rather than some highlighted word.
Imagine that in Fallout you come across a character and at some point get the option "Shoot", making me think "Oh so I can shoot the guy during the conversation" and when I press it my character suddenly asks him some random question.

Plus it will probably lead to these three choices during a conversation; 'saint of the wasteland', 'neutral jerk', and 'absolute asshole' or 'evil embodied'.

I do honestly wonder why people would want this type of spoken dialogue in a 'role playing game'. Basically this comes down to making the right choices, turning the conversation into a puzzle with a specific pattern you need to go through to win.
Sure you had it somewhat in Fallout but it was way more organic and a lot more variables came into play.

 

[Reaper Shackal]

I'm of two minds about this whole thing. I can understand and somewhat agree with Bethesda's reasoning, but I also understand and somewhat agree with you guys' reasoning.

In the end though, it's really not a big fucking deal. As long as it does what it's supposed to, I'm in. I'm more worried about how well the rest of the game will be played and how good the story will be than about whether or not the dialogue option I choose in a conversation doesn't go as overboard as Reaper Shackal's example.

What part of my example went overboard?

 

[Reaper Shackal]

Something like that.
A good example would be in Telltale's The Wolf Among Us. There is an option when talking to a character to "glass him". I Assumed that meant to join him in drinking, so I clicked it. My character proceeded to smash his glass cup into his face instead.

To improve your example, I would say that the option only says "Thanks.." and your character goes "Yeah.. umm. Thanks..." like he didn't mean it.

"Why is my guy stabbing the other guy in the face with a glass cup?"

This is exactly the kind of reason why response should be written out in detail rather than some highlighted word.
Imagine that in Fallout you come across a character and at some point get the option "Shoot", making me think "Oh so I can shoot the guy during the conversation" and when I press it my character suddenly asks him some random question.

Plus it will probably lead to these three choices during a conversation; 'saint of the wasteland', 'neutral jerk', and 'absolute asshole' or 'evil embodied'.

I do honestly wonder why people would want this type of spoken dialogue in a 'role playing game'. Basically this comes down to making the right choices, turning the conversation into a puzzle with a specific pattern you need to go through to win.
Sure you had it somewhat in Fallout but it was way more organic and a lot more variables came into play.

Regarding my example of The Wolf among Us, the character that gets hit with the glass responds with, "Why the hell did you do that!?". At that point I was thinking, "Great question!"

 

[Reaper Shackal]

Mass Effect is not an RPG, so designing the game like it is not a good idea. Also Mass Effect's story was pretty whatever, the high point of that game are the characters.

The sad thing is Mass Effect is a RPG. It is what AAA game design did to the RPG genre once they decided to appeal to the broadest demographic possible.

That's what I wanted to say, but couldn't formulate it.

 

[Chromevod]

Seriously though, didn't Deus Ex: Human Revolution have a system where you could still see everything you were about to make Adam say? If the cross and voicing have to stay, can't we at least have that instead of Mass Effect style?

Well... I mean I'm no modder, but would it be difficult to add that sort of thing in later? Beyond just having all the actual dialogue which I assume can be dug out of the files anyway. Just a little box near the option that scrolls through what you're about to say?

 

[EnclaveKnight]

I'm of two minds about this whole thing. I can understand and somewhat agree with Bethesda's reasoning, but I also understand and somewhat agree with you guys' reasoning.

In the end though, it's really not a big fucking deal. As long as it does what it's supposed to, I'm in. I'm more worried about how well the rest of the game will be played and how good the story will be than about whether or not the dialogue option I choose in a conversation doesn't go as overboard as Reaper Shackal's example.

What part of my example went overboard?

I would assume it is the glass thing. Besides, I kind of agree with SMBComix, the dialogue cross/wheel thing is really a minor gripe compared the fact that we end up a vault dweller, AGAIN. Never played FO 1, but that, FO 3 and this one (at least the going into the vault part), that is 3 Vault people we play as. Sounds like Vault folks are going to be the Fallout Prisoner.

 

[Reaper Shackal]

I'm of two minds about this whole thing. I can understand and somewhat agree with Bethesda's reasoning, but I also understand and somewhat agree with you guys' reasoning.

In the end though, it's really not a big fucking deal. As long as it does what it's supposed to, I'm in. I'm more worried about how well the rest of the game will be played and how good the story will be than about whether or not the dialogue option I choose in a conversation doesn't go as overboard as Reaper Shackal's example.

What part of my example went overboard?

I would assume it is the glass thing. Besides, I kind of agree with SMBComix, the dialogue cross/wheel thing is really a minor gripe compared the fact that we end up a vault dweller, AGAIN. Never played FO 1, but that, FO 3 and this one (at least the going into the vault part), that is 3 Vault people we play as. Sounds like Vault folks are going to be the Fallout Prisoner.

Okay. I mean, it was actually a true story, the glass thing.

 

[EnclaveKnight]

I'm of two minds about this whole thing. I can understand and somewhat agree with Bethesda's reasoning, but I also understand and somewhat agree with you guys' reasoning.

In the end though, it's really not a big fucking deal. As long as it does what it's supposed to, I'm in. I'm more worried about how well the rest of the game will be played and how good the story will be than about whether or not the dialogue option I choose in a conversation doesn't go as overboard as Reaper Shackal's example.

What part of my example went overboard?

I would assume it is the glass thing. Besides, I kind of agree with SMBComix, the dialogue cross/wheel thing is really a minor gripe compared the fact that we end up a vault dweller, AGAIN. Never played FO 1, but that, FO 3 and this one (at least the going into the vault part), that is 3 Vault people we play as. Sounds like Vault folks are going to be the Fallout Prisoner.

Okay. I mean, it was actually a true story, the glass thing.

IT was an extreme example, y'know.

 

[Walpknut]

Mass Effect is not an RPG, so designing the game like it is not a good idea. Also Mass Effect's story was pretty whatever, the high point of that game are the characters.

The sad thing is Mass Effect is a RPG. It is what AAA game design did to the RPG genre once they decided to appeal to the broadest demographic possible.

So every genre is a shooter now?

 

[fred2]

Come now Bethesda, it's not the lack of a voice it's you. You made the writing crap in Fallout 3.
Just look at those dialogue choices for the dog. I'm tempted to believe a 12 year old wrote them.

I do not have that big of an issue with the voice, TBPH. Then again, I did play (and enjoyed thoroughly) the ENTIRE Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon age 2 and Inquisition (I have not even completed Inquisition yet).

I enjoyed those games too. However, is this what we want? Fallout to become Mass Effect?

I don't understand, why do you think that this mechanic will be bad? is it because other games has it or because it is bad? or maybe you just annoyed at Beth writing in general?

 

[Reaper Shackal]

Come now Bethesda, it's not the lack of a voice it's you. You made the writing crap in Fallout 3.
Just look at those dialogue choices for the dog. I'm tempted to believe a 12 year old wrote them.

I do not have that big of an issue with the voice, TBPH. Then again, I did play (and enjoyed thoroughly) the ENTIRE Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon age 2 and Inquisition (I have not even completed Inquisition yet).

I enjoyed those games too. However, is this what we want? Fallout to become Mass Effect?

I don't understand, why do you think that this mechanic will be bad? is it because other games has it or because it is bad? or maybe you just annoyed at Beth writing in general?

Sigh... I'll wait for Walpknut to restate the same reasons if he wants. He says it better than I. I don't think Bethesda does the most quality writing, no.

 

[SMBComix]

Come now Bethesda, it's not the lack of a voice it's you. You made the writing crap in Fallout 3.
Just look at those dialogue choices for the dog. I'm tempted to believe a 12 year old wrote them.

I do not have that big of an issue with the voice, TBPH. Then again, I did play (and enjoyed thoroughly) the ENTIRE Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon age 2 and Inquisition (I have not even completed Inquisition yet).

I enjoyed those games too. However, is this what we want? Fallout to become Mass Effect?

I don't understand, why do you think that this mechanic will be bad? is it because other games has it or because it is bad? or maybe you just annoyed at Beth writing in general?

Sigh... I'll wait for Walpknut to restate the same reasons if he wants. He says it better than I. I don't think Bethesda does the most quality writing, no.

Well, considering they're a video game company, I don't really expect something of a caliber similar to Conan Doyle or Mark Twain out of these guys. They need to write the story to suit the gameplay, not the other way around. In effect, they're really no better than Blizzard Entertainment in that regard. Yeah, they come out with some fun, epic, interesting stuff but I'd hardly call their stories masterpieces. I doubt they're even trying to be.

Maybe that's your problem? That they put the gameplay first before writing the story? I'll admit, I too feel it should be done the other way around but short of holding Mad Max style sawn-offs to their heads I don't think we can really convince them to do it the other way around. We'd likely get arrested instead and they'd STILL do it their way. So, yeah. No sense griping about it. Just enjoy it for what it is.

 

[Walpknut]

I thought we were past this "good for a videogame" writting thing. Guess I was wrong.

New Vegas had very good writting that accomodate the gameplay, I don't see how that's an excuse for the level of writting of 3...

 

[Reaper Shackal]

Come now Bethesda, it's not the lack of a voice it's you. You made the writing crap in Fallout 3.
Just look at those dialogue choices for the dog. I'm tempted to believe a 12 year old wrote them.

I do not have that big of an issue with the voice, TBPH. Then again, I did play (and enjoyed thoroughly) the ENTIRE Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon age 2 and Inquisition (I have not even completed Inquisition yet).

I enjoyed those games too. However, is this what we want? Fallout to become Mass Effect?

I don't understand, why do you think that this mechanic will be bad? is it because other games has it or because it is bad? or maybe you just annoyed at Beth writing in general?

Sigh... I'll wait for Walpknut to restate the same reasons if he wants. He says it better than I. I don't think Bethesda does the most quality writing, no.

Well, considering they're a video game company, I don't really expect something of a caliber similar to Conan Doyle or Mark Twain out of these guys. They need to write the story to suit the gameplay, not the other way around. In effect, they're really no better than Blizzard Entertainment in that regard. Yeah, they come out with some fun, epic, interesting stuff but I'd hardly call their stories masterpieces. I doubt they're even trying to be.

Maybe that's your problem? That they put the gameplay first before writing the story? I'll admit, I too feel it should be done the other way around but short of holding Mad Max style sawn-offs to their heads I don't think we can really convince them to do it the other way around. We'd likely get arrested instead and they'd STILL do it their way. So, yeah. No sense griping about it. Just enjoy it for what it is.

There's plenty of reason to gripe about it. I think Fallout New Vegas was phenomenal in every way, including story. It's my favorite game of all time. Bethesda could learn from it, but it seems they chose to appeal to the lowest common denominator instead. I mean, I can't blame them for that. They are a company, and companies are out to make money.
That doesn't stop me from wanting to gripe though. No Mutants Allowed is pretty much the only place I can go where these opinions of mine will not get me declared a troll, graphics obsessed, or detrimental to gaming.

I admit, I do wonder if I'm just going Republican in a different form. Am I just being the side of the coin that has little else to say other than "Screw liberals! They are bad"? (Sorry to any Republicans here, just going off my experiences. Please don't fight me over it.)

 

[SMBComix]

Come now Bethesda, it's not the lack of a voice it's you. You made the writing crap in Fallout 3.
Just look at those dialogue choices for the dog. I'm tempted to believe a 12 year old wrote them.

I do not have that big of an issue with the voice, TBPH. Then again, I did play (and enjoyed thoroughly) the ENTIRE Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon age 2 and Inquisition (I have not even completed Inquisition yet).

I enjoyed those games too. However, is this what we want? Fallout to become Mass Effect?

I don't understand, why do you think that this mechanic will be bad? is it because other games has it or because it is bad? or maybe you just annoyed at Beth writing in general?

Sigh... I'll wait for Walpknut to restate the same reasons if he wants. He says it better than I. I don't think Bethesda does the most quality writing, no.

Well, considering they're a video game company, I don't really expect something of a caliber similar to Conan Doyle or Mark Twain out of these guys. They need to write the story to suit the gameplay, not the other way around. In effect, they're really no better than Blizzard Entertainment in that regard. Yeah, they come out with some fun, epic, interesting stuff but I'd hardly call their stories masterpieces. I doubt they're even trying to be.

Maybe that's your problem? That they put the gameplay first before writing the story? I'll admit, I too feel it should be done the other way around but short of holding Mad Max style sawn-offs to their heads I don't think we can really convince them to do it the other way around. We'd likely get arrested instead and they'd STILL do it their way. So, yeah. No sense griping about it. Just enjoy it for what it is.

There's plenty of reason to gripe about it. I think Fallout New Vegas was phenomenal in every way, including story. It's my favorite game of all time. Bethesda could learn from it, but it seems they chose to appeal to the lowest common denominator instead. I mean, I can't blame them for that. They are a company, and companies are out to make money.
That doesn't stop me from wanting to gripe though. No Mutants Allowed is pretty much the only place I can go where these opinions of mine will not get me declared a troll, graphics obsessed, or detrimental to gaming.

I admit, I do wonder if I'm just going Republican in a different form. Am I just being the side of the coin that has little else to say other than "Screw liberals! They are bad"? (Sorry to any Republicans here, just going off my experiences. Please don't fight me over it.)

No, I understand. Don't forget, I told you I largely agree with you. I just don't see the point since it'll accomplish nothing, at least from where I'm sitting.

I thought we were past this "good for a videogame" writting thing. Guess I was wrong.

New Vegas had very good writting that accomodate the gameplay, I don't see how that's an excuse for the level of writting of 3...

Different developers, Walpknut. Different priorities. Clearly Obsidian prioritized lore first over gameplay; they had the wherewithal to do that, at least, since they were simply using an engine and assets that were already made for them. Bethesda, however, clearly prioritizes gameplay pretty high over story.

Now, I'm not gonna sit here and say one story was objectively better than the other, since that's a matter of opinion. I personally enjoyed both stories, though I do enjoy New Vegas' more due to the multiple possible endings. It's my hope that Bethesda learned a thing or two from its community and Obsidian not just in the gameplay department but in the storytelling one, too. I'm not gonna hold my breath over it though.

 

[TorontoReign]

Mass Effect is not an RPG, so designing the game like it is not a good idea. Also Mass Effect's story was pretty whatever, the high point of that game are the characters.

The sad thing is Mass Effect is a RPG. It is what AAA game design did to the RPG genre once they decided to appeal to the broadest demographic possible.

So every genre is a shooter now?

Bioware still makes RPG's, they just aren't very complex, mostly narrative focused, with very little in the way of actual RPG mechanics. Mass Effect, Jade Empire, KotOR - are all RPG's in a sense, but they feel more like choose-your-adventure stories when you get down to it.

 

[SMBComix]

Mass Effect is not an RPG, so designing the game like it is not a good idea. Also Mass Effect's story was pretty whatever, the high point of that game are the characters.

The sad thing is Mass Effect is a RPG. It is what AAA game design did to the RPG genre once they decided to appeal to the broadest demographic possible.

So every genre is a shooter now?

Bioware still makes RPG's, they just aren't very complex, mostly narrative focused, with very little in the way of actual RPG mechanics. Mass Effect, Jade Empire, KotOR - are all RPG's in a sense, but they feel more like choose-your-adventure stories when you get down to it.

So basically like Fallout: New Vegas.

Still don't see what's wrong with that.

 

[Eumesmopo]

The IGN comments gave me ebola.